Sydney: CityRail folding bike trial

No, this does not mean that CityRail are replacing trains with folding
bikes, as amusing as that would be.

They are, however, allowing folding bikes on board trains during peak
times *without* the purchase of a child ticket. The bikes have to be
under a certain (folded) size, and bagged.

This is a six-month trial. I think there's a good chance it will be
made permanent.

There doesn't appear to be anything on the CityRail web site, but
Google turned up this:

http://www.sydneycyclist.com/forum/t...k-hour-folding


-- Phil

On Aug 28, 9:59*am, Phil H wrote:
No, this does not mean that CityRail are replacing trains with folding
bikes, as amusing as that would be.

They are, however, allowing folding bikes on board trains during peak
times *without* the purchase of a child ticket. The bikes have to be
under a certain (folded) size, and bagged.

This is a six-month trial. I think there's a good chance it will be
made permanent.

There doesn't appear to be anything on the CityRail web site, but
Google turned up this:

http://www.sydneycyclist.com/forum/t...k-hour-folding

-- Phil

Of course, they should allow all bikes onboard without the need to
purchase a child's ticket, peak hours or not. My bike takes up no more
space than a big suitcase, and I have to stand with it to both guard
it and move it out of the way if the doors open on that side. Why
should I pay 1.5 times the usual fare to stand? Suitcase carriers
don't. Surfboard carriers don't. If someone locks their bike to a pole
in the vestibule and then sits down. how do they know which passenger
should pay for that bike down the end? Even bike gear is no proof, I
could have left my bike when I got on, or be picking it up when I get
off.

What they really need to do is make allowance in carriage design so
that bikes can be stored easily, safely, and out of the way.

Tony F

In aus.bicycle on Thu, 27 Aug 2009 17:23:57 -0700 (PDT)
Tony F wrote:

What they really need to do is make allowance in carriage design so
that bikes can be stored easily, safely, and out of the way.

That's an *amazingly* big ask.

I started doodling such designs a while back, gave up very quickly.


Zebee

Zebee Johnstone wrote:
In aus.bicycle on Thu, 27 Aug 2009 17:23:57 -0700 (PDT)
Tony F wrote:
What they really need to do is make allowance in carriage design so
that bikes can be stored easily, safely, and out of the way.

That's an *amazingly* big ask.

I started doodling such designs a while back, gave up very quickly.


Zebee

How about

http://cccpd5.pbworks.com/Bicycle-Ac...us-and-L-Train
http://envirofuel.files.wordpress.co...age-inside.jpg
http://www.rainiervalleypost.com/wp-.../oct08-128.jpg
http://images.google.com.au/imgres?i... 3D63%26um%3D1
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/57/18...beaa9c82_o.jpg

This ain't rocket science folks!

In aus.bicycle on Fri, 28 Aug 2009 12:15:11 +1000
Patrick Keogh wrote:

http://cccpd5.pbworks.com/Bicycle-Ac...us-and-L-Train
http://envirofuel.files.wordpress.co...age-inside.jpg

First two I looked at won't work for Sydney trains given design and
capacity.

The problem is you have to have it work on 2 deckers and you have to
have it allowing people to manage on *crowded* trains.

Looks very nice when there's no one else in the carriage. Now add 10
bicycles or 20, and 30 people. Plus the ones wanting to get on at the
stop and the ones coming down the stairs to get on.

Have you been on a Sydney train recently? Say 7:30am to 9am and 4pm
to 6pm at say Town Hall?

Zebee

Zebee Johnstone wrote:
In aus.bicycle on Fri, 28 Aug 2009 12:15:11 +1000
Patrick Keogh wrote:
http://cccpd5.pbworks.com/Bicycle-Ac...us-and-L-Train
http://envirofuel.files.wordpress.co...age-inside.jpg

First two I looked at won't work for Sydney trains given design and
capacity.

The problem is you have to have it work on 2 deckers and you have to
have it allowing people to manage on *crowded* trains.

Looks very nice when there's no one else in the carriage. Now add 10
bicycles or 20, and 30 people. Plus the ones wanting to get on at the
stop and the ones coming down the stairs to get on.

Have you been on a Sydney train recently? Say 7:30am to 9am and 4pm
to 6pm at say Town Hall?

Zebee
Don't confuse issues about overcrowded trains with issues about bicycles
on trains. This was one of the key messages of the successful campaign
to overturn a ban on bikes on peak period trains in Melbourne. The same
issues have arisen in London trains and probably everywhere else where
the fuel crisis, a congestion tax or other issues have resulted in a
relatively sudden upsurge in people wanting to use public transport and
to take bikes on trains.

Design and capacity issues have to be addressed if we are to deal with
the CO2 and public health issues of toxic cities. We are not going to
fix these issues overnight but we won't fix them ever unless we start.
It may be that for a while every train can only have one carriage that
is designed to be bicycle friendly. Then one can become two and then
three and so on.

We as a voting public have been incredibly lazy in terms of allowing our
elected representatives and public servants to get away with living in
the past on this issue. To give you a couple of examples, more than ten
years ago I went on the big NSW bike ride from Tamworth to Newcastle.
NSW rail knew that there would be incredible demand for the two seats on
the train the day before from Sydney to Tamworth which would be allowed
to book bicycles. Yes two. If they had even provide a freight car they
would have sold an additional 40-50 tickets on that train at least. It
travelled at about 20% capacity. Another one - have you been on the
Sydney Spring Cycle from North Sydney to Homebush? City Rail run
additional trains for the event, but do not appear to have any carriages
better suited to carrying people plus bicycles than the double deckers.
Of course people cope (even the upstairs aisle was full of bikes) but
you think that maybe they could have ONE carriage better suited to the task.

It is up to you NSW voters to make sure that not one more
bicycle-unfriendly carriage gets added to your network. Where I live
there is a government commitment to ensure that ALL public trainsport is
fitted with dedicated bicycle racks, a task that is substantially
complete. This didn't happen by accident, it took organised lobbying by
ordinary citizens to ensure that our government was listening, and then
acted. On the ACTION network you don't pay extra to take a bike, in fact
for the first year if you travelled with a bike then you travelled for
free. How's that for setting the social agenda?

Tony F wrote:


What they really need to do is make allowance in carriage design so
that bikes can be stored easily, safely, and out of the way.

Tony F


There is a loooog lead in time for new carriges if they work at all,
when and if they put them into service.

You will most likely be a pensioner by then and not riding or working.


Buildings then need to be redesigned to store bikes ridden to work from
train stations.

Gee look at all the flow on situations caused by letting bikes on trains.

In aus.bicycle on Fri, 28 Aug 2009 14:07:18 +1000
Patrick Keogh wrote:
Don't confuse issues about overcrowded trains with issues about bicycles
on trains. This was one of the key messages of the successful campaign
to overturn a ban on bikes on peak period trains in Melbourne. The same
issues have arisen in London trains and probably everywhere else where
the fuel crisis, a congestion tax or other issues have resulted in a
relatively sudden upsurge in people wanting to use public transport and
to take bikes on trains.

I'm more about practicality than about bluesky in this case.

The problem isn't simple at all. It's possible to manage a couple of
bikes and that's all we have *now*.

But once you have to manage more than a few per carriage then your
riders take up the space of 2-3 people. And have to get those bikes
in and out.

Like I say, it's obvious by the fact the pretty pictures never show
how they'll deal with a train at capacity. I dunno that cities the
size we are building can be managed with transport of any kind.

Folding bicycles are a sensible answer to the problem. Full size
bicycles on peak hour trains are wanting to advantage one group over
another when there's an alternative.



Zebee

In aus.bicycle on Fri, 28 Aug 2009 14:32:43 +1000
Rob wrote:

Buildings then need to be redesigned to store bikes ridden to work from
train stations.

Gee look at all the flow on situations caused by letting bikes on trains.

I suspect that should there be more than 3 or 4 bikes per carriage it
will be part of a much bigger move to bicycles and so there will have
to be parking anyway. As you can fit quite a few bicycles in one car
space that won't be too hard.

The fun part will be redesigning stations and station exits to cope
with the extra bulk. You can fit several bikes in the room taken
by one car, you can fit a couple (or more) of walking peds in the
room taken by one bicycle...

Same problem with carriages. A big hassle in timetabling is the time
taken to enter/exit trains. The proposed metro has mostly standing
room and lots of doorway space to try and solve this. OK for short
trips, will be a bummer for the people who probably want bikes the
most, ones where the train is a fair distance from their home or work,
who are the ones who will likely be taking longer journeys.

I expect some engineer somewhere has come up with an equation for
optimal seating vs door realestate.

Add in bicycles which have to be manouvered around each other and any
seating and people to get them in and out, and you add a non-trivial
amount to the station time for non-metro trains, that is ones with
seating. Wheelchairs aren't as bad because they don't take up as much
room.

I suppose bikes could be stood on the back wheel the whole way, hands
up those with full chain cases....

Junk expands to fill the available room. Happens with roads, will
(And does) happen with trains. The easier you make any form of
transport to use, the more people use it, and the less easy it gets to
use. If a cyclist is deterred by having to pay a child fare dunno
they really needed the pushbike. I bet trying to get the bike onto a
crowded carriage is more of a deterrent.

60 people 20 of whom have folding bikes in cases is going to be fairly
difficult on a train carriage, 60 people 20 of whom have bicycles is
going to be much harder!


Zebee

Zebee Johnstone wrote:
In aus.bicycle on Fri, 28 Aug 2009 14:07:18 +1000
Patrick Keogh wrote:
Don't confuse issues about overcrowded trains with issues about bicycles
on trains. This was one of the key messages of the successful campaign
to overturn a ban on bikes on peak period trains in Melbourne. The same
issues have arisen in London trains and probably everywhere else where
the fuel crisis, a congestion tax or other issues have resulted in a
relatively sudden upsurge in people wanting to use public transport and
to take bikes on trains.

I'm more about practicality than about bluesky in this case.

The problem isn't simple at all. It's possible to manage a couple of
bikes and that's all we have *now*.

But once you have to manage more than a few per carriage then your
riders take up the space of 2-3 people. And have to get those bikes
in and out.

Like I say, it's obvious by the fact the pretty pictures never show
how they'll deal with a train at capacity. I dunno that cities the
size we are building can be managed with transport of any kind.

Folding bicycles are a sensible answer to the problem. Full size
bicycles on peak hour trains are wanting to advantage one group over
another when there's an alternative.



Zebee
Someone should tell Amsterdam and Copenhagen that it doesn't work.