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  #41  
Old June 19th 18, 03:33 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tim McNamara
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On Sun, 17 Jun 2018 11:10:11 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

My experience says its better to be wearing a helmet when you wreck
that not wear a helmet.


I had a concussion while wearing a helmet and my head never even hit
anything. No headgear could have prevented the concussion because of
that. But even so, the CPSC standards are so low that aduts riding at
adult speeds (say 15+ mph) will gwt little protection against
concussions and TBIs. A helmet that did provide adequate protection
would be unsuitable for use while riding a bike. Maybe someday someone
will come up with a practical cycling helmet design that actually works.
Speaking of which, anyone know if the MIPS helmets actually provide any
benefits over conventional designs?

Helmets are probably pretty good at preventing injuries like scalp
lacerations and abrasions to the areas they cover. They're less good at
protecting the brain. But this is just a rehashed argument that's been
going on for decades, with people adopting their usual postures, and
will again resolve nothing.
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  #43  
Old June 19th 18, 05:27 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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On 6/18/2018 8:42 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, June 18, 2018 at 12:22:09 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/18/2018 2:49 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, June 18, 2018 at 10:13:43 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/18/2018 10:03 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/18/2018 8:59 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, June 17, 2018 at 6:58:08 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:

I avoid wrecking.

...

I believe in risk compensation.

Yes, we know. So how does that work with getting hit by a car, wiping
out on ice, going OTB after getting hung up in a dog leash?

It does work out somehow, Jay. I take measures to prevent all those
things, successfully. In some cases (riding on ice) the measure is to
avoid it. Note, you seem to sometimes get ice when we might get snow -
but I do ride in snow. Very carefully. Falls have been rare and injuries
nonexistent, except for an "ouch!" bump on the back of my head when I
was about 16. (I suppose if I'd worn a bike helmet then, people would
have said it saved my life.)


I'm willing to slow down for a dog on a leash, including the last one
that came out after me about five days ago. It's a known hazard; I watch
for it. The same is true for gravel on turns, potholes, motorists who
may turn left across my path, etc.

I don't care much for the story that goes "I goofed up and crashed, and
that proves helmets are great."

Hmmm. Yes, many crashes result from "goof-ups" -- by riders, drivers, pedestrians, manufacturers, etc. I crashed on UmmaGumma tires because of Specialized's choice of tread compound. That was a serious goof-up. God goofed-up and created invisible and localized black-ice on my way to work one morning. Racers have goofed-up in front of me, crashing and piling-up like cord wood. I cartwheeled over my son who goofed-up and crashed in front of me on a wet descent -- which was due in part to slippery tread compound. I won't even get into the goof-ups by motorists.


Yes, I understand. None of those were foreseeable. It's just normal
behavior to fly through wet descents, to be unaware of freezing
temperatures, to test the limits of new tires' traction, to push to the
limit in races...


How dramatic! All the sudden I'm flying through wet corners and pushing it to the limit in races! I should have my own YouTube channel.

The fact is that ordinary people just riding along can get whacked or crash. Black ice is invisible and localized, and riding in temperatures below 32F is SOP for year-round commuters in the PNW.

Race crashes can occur when people are bunched up and not pushing it to the limit -- or a dog runs into the field or someone hits road furniture or railroad tracks. Crashes are not confined to the finishing sprint or hair-raising descents.

I live in a wet environment that is hilly and has bad roads. People can crash just riding along -- even the mayor. https://bikeportland.org/2017/11/16/...e-crash-254716

And people can get whacked by cars or other bicyclists for no reason. **** happens -- except to you, which is amazing. You should should have your own shrine, right along with the cheese sandwich with the image of the Virgin Mary.


Jay, I don't think I'm all that amazing. Yes, I've had almost no bike
crashes or injuries. But there are lots and lots of people whose worst
lifetime bike injury is a skinned knee. That's true of my wife and my
two kids, plus dozens of people I ride with.

Yes, I have some friends, avid riders, who crashed and who claimed
their helmets certainly saved them. Examples? The guy who tied his
jacket around his handlebars and had a sleeve come loose and tangle in
his front spokes. The guy who was speeding down an unfamiliar curvy hill
with gravel on the road. One guy who claimed he was "just riding along"
on a smooth straight road and suddenly fell for no reason. (???) Are we
really supposed to prioritize plastic hats over "get some sense, please!"?

But I have many more friends who crashed and incurred no head strike nor
helmet damage, despite other injuries like broken collar bones or broken
ribs. It's a myth that most bike crashes are TBI events, just as it's a
myth that in the pre-styrofoam days, TBI events were common.

And I have friends and family who have had TBI injuries that had nothing
to do with bicycling, like one who ran into a fence playing outfield.
One who was hit in the head by a thrown bat. Several who were TBId while
riding in cars or pickup trucks. And so on.

I have had, at last count, seven friends who died in car crashes, most
probably from TBI. (It's seldom mentioned for car crashes.) And one who
died while riding the same model motorcycle I ride. Yes, he wore a helmet.

Stuff happens. It happens to motorists, pedestrians, people walking
around their houses, people playing various team sports, people hiking,
people swimming, people working, people just lying in bed - or more
precisely, falling out of bed, a cause of death about as common as
bicycling. But somehow almost none of those people are shamed if they
choose not to wear a funny plastic hat.

Any impartial examination of data will show that many of those
activities impose more risk of death or serious TBI than does bicycling.
And most of those activities don't have bicycling's tremendous benefit
to risk ratio. So why is it we assume bicyclists, and only bicyclists,
must "always wear a helmet"?

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #44  
Old June 19th 18, 07:52 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sepp Ruf
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Posts: 454
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jbeattie wrote:
People can crash just riding along -- even the mayor.
https://bikeportland.org/2017/11/16/portland-mayor-ted-wheeler-breaks-ribs-in-bicycle-crash-254716


The mayor's statement indicates that his braking action could have been
executed in a more careful manner. Just as a random $89.85 for a "quality"
helmet could have been better spent on tires working well in Portland
November, the 5.885 extra seconds (compared to a wet-weather hat) Mr. Walker
spent adjusting his foam hijab would have been better spent to initiate his
braking earlier. And, as this thread has already been driven deep into ribs
helmet advocacy territory, I'll boldly claim there is a corresponding 85%
chance Mr. Wheeler was not using the area of the road regularly cleaned by
car tires in his maneuver.

--
iudex non calculat.
  #45  
Old June 19th 18, 12:09 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Emanuel Berg[_2_]
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Posts: 1,035
Default Helmet News

Frank Krygowski wrote:

Regarding helmet use and brain injury: Rare
as it is, the needle isn't even moving in the
right direction. How many excuses for the
helmet mania can people make?


Again, I'd like to see professionally conducted
studies with tables, charts, and figures...

--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
  #46  
Old June 19th 18, 01:05 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B Slocomb
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Posts: 356
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On Tue, 19 Jun 2018 13:09:01 +0200, Emanuel Berg
wrote:

Frank Krygowski wrote:

Regarding helmet use and brain injury: Rare
as it is, the needle isn't even moving in the
right direction. How many excuses for the
helmet mania can people make?


Again, I'd like to see professionally conducted
studies with tables, charts, and figures...


One of the problems is that it isn't a simple A=B equation. Was the
guy with (or without) the helmet drinking or taking dope? Were the
helmet wearers (non wearers) obeying the traffic code? Was it night
(day), did that make a difference?

This isn't a helmet problem at all, almost every study I've read
eliminated some variables in order to attempt to get a viable answer
to the question of Why?

Or, to be honest, in some cases to the question, "Is this going to
show what I want it to"?
  #47  
Old June 19th 18, 05:33 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
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Posts: 5,870
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On Monday, June 18, 2018 at 11:52:11 PM UTC-7, Sepp Ruf wrote:
jbeattie wrote:
People can crash just riding along -- even the mayor.
https://bikeportland.org/2017/11/16/portland-mayor-ted-wheeler-breaks-ribs-in-bicycle-crash-254716


The mayor's statement indicates that his braking action could have been
executed in a more careful manner. Just as a random $89.85 for a "quality"
helmet could have been better spent on tires working well in Portland
November, the 5.885 extra seconds (compared to a wet-weather hat) Mr. Walker
spent adjusting his foam hijab would have been better spent to initiate his
braking earlier. And, as this thread has already been driven deep into ribs
helmet advocacy territory, I'll boldly claim there is a corresponding 85%
chance Mr. Wheeler was not using the area of the road regularly cleaned by
car tires in his maneuver.


You can boldly claim whatever you want, but as you can see, Mr. Wheeler rides big rubber. He was riding the same roads where I fell and broke ribs and whacked my head, which is the usual fall mechanism when you have a low side crash on 100 year old broken cement pavement that has been reduced to polished rock -- with a river running down a 7-15% grade. Wheel tracks are just channels. Alternative route to work: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJRnwgPa6rM&t=119s (including trail). Coming down is tricky when it is storming. I was doing nothing unusual when I crashed -- on worn-in 28mm tires, JRA. Scene of the crime: https://tinyurl.com/yagxzbws Flip around and check out the pavement -- it's enough to loosen your fillings.

I've been riding next to skilled riders who crashed on the same road in the same place in the same turn at the same moderate speed just because they hit some unseen turtle **** or moss. You try to stay out from under the trees, but some places that's impossible. Whatever you views on helmets, every crash is not a matter of rider ineptitude.


-- Jay Beattie.




  #48  
Old June 19th 18, 05:56 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 10,538
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On 6/19/2018 7:09 AM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:

Regarding helmet use and brain injury: Rare
as it is, the needle isn't even moving in the
right direction. How many excuses for the
helmet mania can people make?


Again, I'd like to see professionally conducted
studies with tables, charts, and figures...


There is information available.

I'd suggest starting with data on the magnitude bicycling's traumatic
brain injury (TBI) risk, especially relative to other sources of risk.
Is bicycling really an important source of traumatic brain injury?
Google for causes of TBI, ranked by annual frequency. Unless you're
hitting a bike helmet propaganda site, bicycling will not normally
appear on the list. (As an example: In the U.S., bicyclists comprise
only 0.6% of TBI fatalities. If bike helmets could prevent all of those,
it would make negligible difference in the nation's medical costs.) That
data should make you wonder why so much attention is given to hats on
bicyclists when the problem is really so small.

If for some reason (why??) you think it's necessary to further reduce
the tiny risk of bicycling TBI - but ignore the much greater number of
TBI cases from other causes - then you can dig into the countless
studies on helmet effectiveness. This site is the most prominent pro
helmet site in America. Its author wants mandatory helmet laws for all
ages in all circumstances. He also provides a handy list of insults one
can use against riders who choose not to use helmets. (Such a nice guy!)
https://helmets.org/

Here are two of the more prominent helmet skeptic sites. Please note
that, unlike that pro-helmet site, these people do not want to use laws
to impose their views on others. In other words, they don't want to make
helmets illegal; they just want to allow personal choice, and they don't
want bicycling demonized with "Danger! Danger!" propaganda.

http://www.cyclehelmets.org/ is an older site, and while it has links to
hundreds of research papers both pro and con, it has not been well
maintained for several years.

http://cycle-helmets.com/ is currently maintained. It tends to be more
specific to Australia and New Zealand (the only countries with current
all-ages mandatory helmet laws, IIRC). It tends to have reams and reams
of data, much of which requires some work to understand.

When you read the pro-helmet propaganda, carefully note the propaganda
tricks. For example, understand that the terms "brain injury" and "head
injury" are NOT equivalent. Much propaganda on risk of TBI and on helmet
effectiveness purposely conflates the two terms.

Also be careful of "weasel words" like "up to..." or "as many as..."
which are used in selling helmets, just as in selling miracle diets,
deodorants or snake oil. Beware of injury counts that span decades in
order to use larger scarier numbers; or of injury counts that are not
compared to counts for other activities, like pedestrian travel or
motorist travel.

Happy reading ... for the next year, if you really want to get into it. ;-)


--
- Frank Krygowski
  #49  
Old June 19th 18, 06:00 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Duane[_2_]
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Posts: 401
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On 19/06/2018 12:33 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, June 18, 2018 at 11:52:11 PM UTC-7, Sepp Ruf wrote:
jbeattie wrote:
People can crash just riding along -- even the mayor.
https://bikeportland.org/2017/11/16/portland-mayor-ted-wheeler-breaks-ribs-in-bicycle-crash-254716


The mayor's statement indicates that his braking action could have been
executed in a more careful manner. Just as a random $89.85 for a "quality"
helmet could have been better spent on tires working well in Portland
November, the 5.885 extra seconds (compared to a wet-weather hat) Mr. Walker
spent adjusting his foam hijab would have been better spent to initiate his
braking earlier. And, as this thread has already been driven deep into ribs
helmet advocacy territory, I'll boldly claim there is a corresponding 85%
chance Mr. Wheeler was not using the area of the road regularly cleaned by
car tires in his maneuver.


You can boldly claim whatever you want, but as you can see, Mr. Wheeler rides big rubber. He was riding the same roads where I fell and broke ribs and whacked my head, which is the usual fall mechanism when you have a low side crash on 100 year old broken cement pavement that has been reduced to polished rock -- with a river running down a 7-15% grade. Wheel tracks are just channels. Alternative route to work: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJRnwgPa6rM&t=119s (including trail). Coming down is tricky when it is storming. I was doing nothing unusual when I crashed -- on worn-in 28mm tires, JRA. Scene of the crime: https://tinyurl.com/yagxzbws Flip around and check out the pavement -- it's enough to loosen your fillings.


Meh, that would be a luxury road in Quebec. Check around Morin Heights,
Sutton or more north toward Tremblant. You spend hours climbing and
then have to brake on the descents because of the potholes.

I've been riding next to skilled riders who crashed on the same road in the same place in the same turn at the same moderate speed just because they hit some unseen turtle **** or moss. You try to stay out from under the trees, but some places that's impossible. Whatever you views on helmets, every crash is not a matter of rider ineptitude.



Well you could have been creeping along looking for the turtle **** or
moss. Or you could refuse to ride roads with tree cover.

  #50  
Old June 19th 18, 06:11 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 10,538
Default Helmet News

On 6/19/2018 12:33 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, June 18, 2018 at 11:52:11 PM UTC-7, Sepp Ruf wrote:
jbeattie wrote:
People can crash just riding along -- even the mayor.
https://bikeportland.org/2017/11/16/portland-mayor-ted-wheeler-breaks-ribs-in-bicycle-crash-254716


The mayor's statement indicates that his braking action could have been
executed in a more careful manner. Just as a random $89.85 for a "quality"
helmet could have been better spent on tires working well in Portland
November, the 5.885 extra seconds (compared to a wet-weather hat) Mr. Walker
spent adjusting his foam hijab would have been better spent to initiate his
braking earlier. And, as this thread has already been driven deep into ribs
helmet advocacy territory, I'll boldly claim there is a corresponding 85%
chance Mr. Wheeler was not using the area of the road regularly cleaned by
car tires in his maneuver.


You can boldly claim whatever you want, but as you can see, Mr. Wheeler rides big rubber. He was riding the same roads where I fell and broke ribs and whacked my head, which is the usual fall mechanism when you have a low side crash on 100 year old broken cement pavement that has been reduced to polished rock -- with a river running down a 7-15% grade. Wheel tracks are just channels. Alternative route to work: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJRnwgPa6rM&t=119s (including trail). Coming down is tricky when it is storming. I was doing nothing unusual when I crashed -- on worn-in 28mm tires, JRA. Scene of the crime: https://tinyurl.com/yagxzbws Flip around and check out the pavement -- it's enough to loosen your fillings.

I've been riding next to skilled riders who crashed on the same road in the same place in the same turn at the same moderate speed just because they hit some unseen turtle **** or moss. You try to stay out from under the trees, but some places that's impossible. Whatever you views on helmets, every crash is not a matter of rider ineptitude.


OK, aside from the crash caused by the tandem fork suddenly breaking
off, my only other moving on-road fall happened like this:

It was winter. I was riding home from work down a short steep downtown
hill. (The grade is over 15%, the hill is only 200 feet long, and the
road's since been closed to traffic.) There was lots of road salt on the
surface so I was descending very slowly, less than 10 mph.

I suddenly noticed that the patch of stuff just in front of me wasn't
road salt. Instead it was broken glass. I swerved rightward to avoid it.
My front tire slipped on the road salt and I fell. I scratched my knee
and tore my windbreaker.

I didn't say "That was an act of God." I didn't say "Nobody could have
avoided that." Instead I said "Damn; I screwed up."

I try hard to not screw up.

--
- Frank Krygowski
 




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