Bicyclist Fatalities in AZ 2009

On 12/9/2010 7:39 AM, Duane Hébert wrote:
[...]
The second being that a bike must take a bike lane when one is available
with exclusions for turns.[...]

Confined to the ghetto!

--
Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.

On 12/8/2010 8:20 PM, fiultra5 wrote:
On Dec 8, 9:54 pm, Jay wrote:
On Dec 8, 9:40 am, Frank wrote:

But in a 10 foot lane, curb at the right, with an 8.5 foot truck
behind you, where exactly would you ride?

Probably the same place he always rides, being that very few people
shift their position in the lane based on vehicles approaching from
the rear. "Oh, look, its an Escalade, better get left." "No, its
just a Prius, I should ride further right." "But wait, its a
Kenworth, better go down the center." Really, I'm riding a bike, not
a yoyo.

Your hypothetical also assumes that the truck is going to try to pass
you in your own lane rather than cross the centerline and pass at a
safe (and legally required) distance. You can make that assumption
sometimes, but not all the time. And if there is a place where
everyone always tries to pass too closely (I admit, there are such
places), then taking the road may be the safe thing to do. It also
requires you to pull off when there are cars piled up behind you to
let them pass. In that case, you are no different than the slow moving
lawn tractor driving down the road. The fact that you are on a bike
does not make you special and immune from the "slow moving vehicle
must yield" laws. -- Jay Beattie.

I have a section of road near here, down to the next town, where once
I walked and cycled, decades ago. It's a main road with single narrow
lane traffic in each direction. The hard shoulder beyond the yellow
line is inches wide and in some places has crumbled away. Essentially
it is small country road outdated by three decades of intensive
development in the region beyond my little town; further on it has
been widened but there is no way for cyclists to get from here to the
wide section. Even twenty years ago cars and trucks would slow down
for you, and wait to pass when there was a break in the oncoming
traffic; there was little enough traffic for it not to be an
imposition.

Then the traffic started mounting up, and a lot of it was through
traffic, travelling about twice as fast as twenty years ago. The
police superintendent of the entire region was killed on his bicycle
on that road; I'd started refusing a while before that to go riding
there with him.

I went to where that road leaves the town and immediately narrows down
in the summer just past, to decide whether the pedalpals and I could
use it for less than a mile coming back from a longer ride, to save
making the end of our ride over some tough but much safer hills.
Traffic was hitting 100kph/62mph right there at the town speed
derestriction, and cars and trucks were too close together for hard
braking for cyclist doing even 30mph. Pedalling there at our average
on the flat of 20kph would simply be lethal. The last time I actually
rode out on that road, perhaps fifteen years ago, a passing truck
ripped my shirt -- a cotton dress shirt, but how much slack you think
there is in it, an inch, two?

There are some roads that cyclists simply shouldn't be on, regardless
of what the theory of vehicular cyclists says.

Andre Jute
Bravery and bravado are not the same thing

You must live in the real world Andre. Or at least
one similar to the one that I'm in...

On 12/8/2010 5:01 PM, James wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Dec 8, 1:17 pm, Duane Hébert wrote:
On 12/8/2010 12:27 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:

On Dec 8, 12:06 pm, Duane H wrote:
Like I've said countless times here, I definitely prefer to NOT ride
with cars. When I'm on my weekend rides, I look for routes without
much
traffic. Even some with bike paths paralleling the road. Seems like
more fun going down the mountain at 60k in a lane without cars.
But when I commute to work I have little choice. And when I do ride
with cars, what I will do in any given circumstance depends.
So are you, too, one of those guys who frequently ride the sidewalks
because the road makes them nervous?
Just out of curiosity, how do you get that from the lines I posted?

I didn't really "get that." I was trying to clarify what this meant:
"And when I do ride with cars, what I will do in any given
circumstance depends." Did it mean "If I get nervous about cars, I
ride the sidewalk"?

I'm getting the impression a lot of people either

1) don't want to admit they take the lane when necessary, perhaps
because they don't want to admit they agree with me; and/or

2) don't want to admit they ride sidewalks, because they know the data
and the image make that strategy look bad.

- Frank Krygowski

Depends.

Is it a city street with a 40 or 50 km/h speed limit?
I often cycle at that speed, so I wouldn't be slowing anyone up much,
and likely they would be happy enough to stay behind until the lane
widened or it was safe to use the other side of the road and pass.

Or a narrow HWY on a mountain pass with an unrestricted speed limit - as
in http://tinyurl.com/2e4qwr2 ?

Is the truck fully loaded and travelling fast (60+ km/h) up behind you
with no apparent indication of slowing?

Is there any sidewalk, or just a spoon drain and the edge of a mountain?

Is it a single lane road - ie one way traffic? These are rarely in speed
zones that allow more than 40-50km/h.

Cycling over the Black Spur (link I posted above) there are often timber
trucks that pass. If I hear one coming from some distance I ride out
into the middle of the lane until I hear or see that they are getting
close. If they don't appear to be slowing, or if there's adequate
distance up the road for them to pass, I move as far left as _practical_
(being careful not to be re-interpreted as "skulking"), still leaving
myself some room to avoid the road edge should the driver try to squeeze
pass. If the road ahead has blind corners and I feel it would be unsafe
for them to overtake, I stay further out and often signal with my hand
for them to stay back. When I see that there is a clear line ahead,
signal for them to pass and move left to aid their progress. They are
often appreciative of such gestures and give a friendly toot as they
pass - rather than an aggressive "get off the f..ing road" honk.

Having said, I've seen it all too often that the driver of any vehicle
is so busting to get passed, that they often overtake on blind corners
over double lines regardless of whether I'm in the middle of the lane or
closer to the left edge. This happens all to often as I cycle up Mt
Dandenong http://tinyurl.com/32u5al4 . I am amazed at how frequently it
happens and that no oncoming traffic has yet appeared and caused a
severe accident. I should video a few ascents. 15 minutes of cycling
usually gets at least one or two of these incidents.

The last nasty one I had going up there was when a bus driver was
overtaking and something came the other way. The bus driver pulled it
hard to the gutter and the back of the bus pushed me into the concrete
of the gutter as it came passed. I was very ****ed off and gave the
asshole driver a vile mouthful when I caught up to him only a few
hundred yards further on at the bus turn around.

Of course in his view I was to blame for just being there. Drivers are
so defensive when you unleash hell on them for damn near causing your
undoing.

Citing personal examples doesn't seem to be useful in this argument.
One just has to say "I've never seen that and I've been riding a bicycle
for billions of years all over the universe,therefore I will imply that
you're an idiot. And BTW if you're so afraid of cycling in a proper
manner (proper defined by me) that you should not ride a bike.

For the rest of us, it sounds like a pretty normal day on
the road. Lots of fun riding a bike. Just pay attention,
be careful and have a good time.

On 12/8/2010 7:11 PM, fiultra5 wrote:
On Dec 8, 2:19 pm, Duane wrote:

I guess my point in responding to this post is that cyclists need to
ride defensively. You can't rely on the motorist to see you and be able
to avoid you.

You can forget about that, Duane. On slippery roads car with four
wheels is easier to control than a bike with two wheels. In addition,
in really foul weather, a cyclist has less visibility in the forward
direction through his spectacles or goggles than a motorist behind his
windshield. It seems to me that a point does arrive where you have to
decide that the bike is more of a danger than a solution, and ice on
the roads is past that point. Mind you, the same applies to cars. --
Andre Jute

Like I said, Andre, you have to look at the circumstances and deal with
them. There's no single solution that works in every situation.

There were people cycling here on Monday with a 32cm snowfall and
50km winds. Hard enough to drive a car in those conditions.

On 12/8/2010 8:01 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Dec 8, 4:02 pm, Duane wrote:
On 12/8/2010 3:41 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
I was trying to clarify what this meant:
"And when I do ride with cars, what I will do in any given
circumstance depends." Did it mean "If I get nervous about cars, I
ride the sidewalk"?

If you don't really "get that" WTF makes you say that? It's damned
insulting.

Do you not remember that one of your supporters in this discussion has
frequently bragged about riding sidewalks? When he said he does, and
you said "what I do depends..." then it certainly sounded to me like
you might ride sidewalks as well.

First, I don't have supporters here. Second, your leap of logic
is quite amazing. Just to clarify though, if I'm in the road
and a truck is screaming up behind me and not going to stop, there
is a possibility that I'm jumping on the sidewalk. Whereas by your
interpretation, you are going to continue controlling the road.
Good luck with that.

What is there to clarify about that statement anyway? You say that you
ride in the middle of the lane regardless of any circumstances because
you control the lane.

No, I didn't say that! (If you think I did, find a quote.) I've
mentioned dozens of times over the years that I share the lane
whenever it's safe to do so. And you guys claim I misrepresent you!

Why is it that you feel free to take your own interpretation of what
I say and argue against it but if I take your implication, you deny it
and tell me to show you the quote? Well, I only have to point to
the lines a few above this. You're implying that you would "control
your lane" and it doesn't depend on anything.


But I will NOT share a lane when doing so would put me at serious
risk. Trying to let an 8.5' truck squeeze by in a 10' lane would be a
serious risk. I know that in anything approaching ordinary
circumstances, the trucker will see me and behave properly, because
I've done this many hundreds of times, and so have thousands of other
cyclists. The technique is taught in all reputable cycling courses.

The same ones that teach defensive driving and to not anticipate that
the truck behind you is going to do what you think that he should do.
And to be prepared for that situation.


I say that I do what is best for me, given the
circumstances.

For example, when the truck is tailgaiting me I'm going to pull to the
side and give him **** as he passes. I'm not going to continue in the
center of the lane ignoring him.

OK, fine. You're going to bail out and shake your fist. I'm going to
continue to ride in the center of the lane, and I'm not going to cede
my legal right to the road out of fear the trucker is really a
murderer.

You don't read very well do you? The truck driver is an idiot. It's
the car passing him and pulling into you that's going to kill you.
Stay there and become road kill then. Will that prove your point
that you have a right to the road?


At least you don't ride on sidewalks. And at least I know where you
stand - i.e., by the side of the road. ;-)

And you stand in the middle of the road. ;-)
(You probably don't detect that sarcasm...)

On 12/8/2010 9:53 PM, DirtRoadie wrote:
On Dec 8, 6:01 pm, Frank wrote:
On Dec 8, 4:02 pm, Duane wrote:

What is there to clarify about that statement anyway? You say that you
ride in the middle of the lane regardless of any circumstances because
you control the lane.

And Frank wrote:
No, I didn't say that! (If you think I did, find a quote.)

Dear Frank: See below.

Frank continued:
I've
mentioned dozens of times over the years that I share the lane
whenever it's safe to do so. And you guys claim I misrepresent you!

"Guys" is what he said. Plural right?
Yeah, thats right. A WHOLE bunch of people find Frank to be a liar.

But Frank then continued:
OK, fine. You're going to bail out and shake your fist.
(and here comes the good part)
I'm going to continue to ride in the center of the lane,
and I'm not going to cede
my legal right to the road out of fear the trucker is really a
murderer.

We rest our case.

Yeah but that's not really a quote. Besides, in my
example, it isn't the trucker that's going to hit me. He's
just being a prick. It's the passing cars that can't see me.
My point was that this idea of controlling the road is an
illusion. I can't control the cars that can't see me.

This is only one example. We all have others. We deal with
them and ride our bikes. But we probably don't feel a need
to wave the VC flag above anything else.

On 12/8/2010 8:31 PM, Tºm Shermªn™ °_° wrote:
On 12/8/2010 8:41 AM, Duane Hébert wrote:
On 12/7/2010 10:18 PM, Tºm Shermªn™ °_° wrote:
On 12/7/2010 11:50 AM, Duane Hébert wrote:
[...]
Who gives a damn about significant number of crashes? When you're
on the road you can't NOT pay attention because of statistical
probabilities. You need to know where all of the other vehicles
are that are sharing the road and have an idea what they're doing.
This is called defensive driving. You always expect the worse and
plan for it. I didn't make this up.[...]

Plan for the worst? Every driver a homicidal maniac? Terrorists with RPG
launchers behind every bush? Armed thermonuclear warheads falling out of
bombers passing overhead? Volcanic explosions below? Sun going nova?
Universe collapsing into a singularity?


Doesn't the aluminum foil hat that you wear take care of most of that?
[...]

See http://www.eclectech.co.uk/mindcontrol.php [1]

[1] Flash™ required.


LOL.

On 12/8/2010 9:12 PM, James wrote:
Tºm Shermªn™ °_° wrote:

Then, when you have found the shrubbery, you must place it here beside
this shrubbery, only slightly higher so you get a two-level effect
with a little path running down the middle.


A path! A path!

Then you must cut down the mightiest tree in the forest with.... a herring.


Now we have the discussion going in the right direction!

I don't want to talk to you no more, you empty headed animal food trough
wiper. I fart in your general direction. Your mother was a hamster and
your father smelt of elderberries.

On 12/8/2010 8:48 PM, Tºm Shermªn™ °_° wrote:
On 12/8/2010 10:36 AM, Duane Hébert wrote:
On 12/8/2010 11:26 AM, RobertH wrote:
On Dec 7, 7:35 pm, Tºm Shermªn™ °_°

How does defensive driving apply? The only similar situation would be
on a low-powered scooter that could not keep pace with other motorized
traffic.

False. When you're simply cruising down the road in your vehicle, the
principles of defensive driving apply, whether you're being passed or
not, because you have to be ready for encroachment from the wings,
watch the road surface, etc. While you're being passed these
principles of defensive driving are even more important.. Furthermore,
when you're being passed, in any vehicle, the principles of defensive
driving should be applied to your relationship with that anonymous
driver to the extent that it is practicable to apply those principles.
Obviously in passing situations the operator of the vehicle being
passed must rely at least somewhat on the faculties of the passing
driver.

Right. Here's a link that has some of the basic principles:
http://www.allsands.com/howto/defens...vin_xwv_gn.htm

Most of the suggestions make sense to me but particularly relevant to
this thread a

5. Anticipate the mistakes or unsafe maneuvers of the other drivers.
Notice that it doesn't say "unless you are controlling the lane"

and
16. If a tailgater is following you, move to another lane if possible or
pull to the side of the road and let the tailgater pass you [...]

In other words, let the *******s win!

Screw that; if I am driving my truck and someone is tailgating, I will
take the chance of them getting the trailer ball on my Class III hitch
through their radiator.


Unless your bent has armor it's going to be tough to walk away from that.

On 12/8/2010 9:13 PM, James wrote:
Duane Hebert wrote:
"DirtRoadie" wrote in message
...
On Dec 8, 6:48 pm, Tºm Shermªn™ °_° ""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI
$southslope.net" wrote:

Screw that; if I am driving my truck and someone is tailgating, I will
take the chance of them getting the trailer ball on my Class III hitch
through their radiator.

Tom is proud to boast of his Class III balls, well, at least one.

Wonder what he has on the back of his bent though.


http://www.bullsnuts.com.au/

Cool but do they make them for recumbent bikes?