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#201
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Stronger rubber cement?
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#203
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Stronger rubber cement?
On Wed, 18 Jan 2017 23:25:15 +0000, Phil Lee
wrote: Joerg considered Wed, 18 Jan 2017 07:36:48 -0800 the perfect time to write: On 2017-01-17 15:26, DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH wrote: analog, I will not explain tire mounting again. Retard at your own speed I have explained to you that these are _flat_ rims. Hard to understand? Most of us never seem to have encountered such rims, so yes, it is hard to understand that any manufacturer would produce such an utterly useless design! Are you sure they aren't cheap Chinese knockoffs of a normally good quality product? No they certainly did make them. I had a set on an old bike I bought mainly to get the frame. It was a real task to get the old tires off and an even greater task to get new tires on. After confirming this with Andrew I took a 4" angle grinder to them. Sawed them up in pieces and threw the pieces in the trash. I can't remember what I paid for a decent set of rims and the spokes to rebuild the wheels but it was far preferable to trying to wrestle tires off and on the old rims. -- Cheers, John B. |
#204
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Stronger rubber cement?
jbeattie considered Tue, 17 Jan 2017 18:10:48
-0800 (PST) the perfect time to write: On Tuesday, January 17, 2017 at 5:59:34 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote: On Tue, 17 Jan 2017 07:50:19 -0800, Joerg wrote: On 2017-01-16 19:28, jbeattie wrote: On Monday, January 16, 2017 at 4:23:53 PM UTC-8, Joerg wrote: On 2017-01-16 13:39, Sir Ridesalot wrote: On Monday, January 16, 2017 at 2:39:18 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote: On Monday, January 16, 2017 at 11:03:05 AM UTC-8, Joerg wrote: On 2017-01-16 10:43, David Scheidt wrote: Joerg wrote: :Yup. Standard bicycle tubes are usually junk. Would you accept it if you :had to pump up the tires of your car every two weeks? Yet most cyclists :think this is "normal". Automotive tires have a much lower ratio of surface area to volume than bike tires. They're also run a lower pressure, for the most part. Truck tires are often operated around 50psi or higher. Like my MTB tires are. A truck tire weights as a much as TWO UCI minimum race bikes -- or one DH bike. Now throw in the rim. You have peculiar expectations for bicycles. You're theoretically perfect bike would weigh about 250lbs. -- Jay Beattie. I've said it before and I'll say it again. What Joerg's wants in a bicycle are would be met by a 250cc dirt-motorcycle converted to pedal power and the engine removed. I find it astounding that so many others who ride in very harsh conditions do NOT have the breakages or other problems that Joerg does. According to several bicycle shop owners they do. Many said that two factors allowed them to survive as a business: 1. Mountain bikers breaking stuff all the time. 2. Department store bike buyers who needed help and found that the store that sold their bikes was less than helpful. Unlike cars, which never need to be fixed, and that's why there are no auto repair shops. http://tinyurl.com/jba5fgb Care to compare the number of vehicles plus the miles traveled? Maybe then it becomes more clear. Cars are way more reliable than bicycles. Especially if you buy top quality cars like we did. Other than regular scheduled maintenance there were no breakdowns in the whole two decades we own them. None, as in zero. Not even one flat tire. Try that with a bicycle. You talk about your auto escapades as hauling a half a cord of wood in your SUV. You describe your bicycle riding as speeding down rocky hills, leaping over bumps and unexpectedly diving into lakes. If you drove your car the way that you claim to ride your bike I think that you would have a very different concept of how bullet proof your car is. I've spent considerable time around trucks that haul heavy loads over unimproved roads and my experience was that they definitely did require frequent repairs. I've also been around off the road racing cars and they took even more maintenance than the trucks. As usual, you are not comparing apples and apples. I ride with a guy who races motorcycles. He can go through a set of tires over the course of weekend -- and they cost a mint. Talk about an expensive hobby. -- Jay Beattie. Only one set? That must be a restricted formula. When I used to help as an amateur mechanic for my neighbour, who raced motorcycles to a national level, tyres lasted exactly one race. likewise chains. Piston rings, one day, pistons, a weekend, cylinders several times in a year, clutches before each meeting. Plus anything that breaks, and of course, different internal gears and sprockets are used for each circuit, to give the best gearing, along with different pad compounds and disk diameters to suit circuit and conditions. Various other parts were replaced on a regular basis as well, but it's a long time ago now, so my list is not exhaustive. Tyres capable of performing in the wet would be shredded in a couple of laps if the circuit dried out. The grinding from mud, dust, grit and sand creates even greater wear on racing motocross bikes, and to increase performance, intake air is barely filtered, if at all. At the more extreme level (F1, Indy, NASCAR for cars, IoM-TT for bikes), tyres are changed several times DURING the race, and the cars or bikes are essentially new for each meeting, with ALL parts that can possibly wear being replaced, and often other parts swapped for ones more suitable for the different circuit! The most extreme example I can think of off-hand is Formula E, where the entire car is changed half-way through each race, when the battery goes flat - so all the other allowed wear components are designed to last only half a race! That is a fairer comparison for a machine which you ride to it's limits, not your false one of a softly tuned road vehicle, designed to reach it's warranty period even if driven to the limits the road will allow, if properly serviced and normal wear items replaced on schedule. |
#205
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Stronger rubber cement?
On Wed, 18 Jan 2017 10:29:17 -0800 (PST), "
wrote: On Tuesday, January 17, 2017 at 8:10:41 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote: I have a set of wheels with sew ups somewhere. I last used them maybe 40 years ago. I've never raced, so sew ups offer no benefits to me. I wonder if they still will hold air? When you have a flat they are much faster to fix. Just rip the flat off the rim and stick on another from the collection you have strapped under the seat :-) John B. Have you ever fixed a tubular on the side of the road? Or even in the shop at home? No one just rips off the flat tubular and quickly sticks the new one on the rim. Does not happen that way in the real world. Maybe in fantasy land. Tubulars are glued on very well. It takes a lot of pulling and prying to get a little bit of the tire off the rim. Then a lot of strength to slowly pull the rest of the tire off the rim. Several minutes of work or more. Then to put the new one on, you better pray it is well stretched on an old rim. You start at one side and slowly work it onto the rim with old glue. Slowly pulling it on. Then the last few inches you strain and stress until maybe hopefully you get it on. Then you spend several more minutes trying to get the tire somewhat straight on the rim. The old glue does not allow the tire to be moved very easily. Keep living in your fantasy world. I was using "fix" as a "fix" of the situation, i.e. flat tire on the bike. But your assertion that tubulars are glued on so well that you can't pull them off is, based on some ten years of riding tubulars, just not so. In fact once the tires were stretched - put them on a rim, pump them up to 120 psi and leave them there for a week or so - I never had any problem putting them on the wheels. And I might add that my record was 4 flats in a 15 Km ride and pushed the bike the last kilometer home. (Which is why I no longer ride tubulars :-) -- Cheers, John B. |
#206
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Stronger rubber cement?
On Wed, 18 Jan 2017 15:01:43 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote: On 1/18/2017 1:29 PM, wrote: On Tuesday, January 17, 2017 at 8:10:41 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote: I have a set of wheels with sew ups somewhere. I last used them maybe 40 years ago. I've never raced, so sew ups offer no benefits to me. I wonder if they still will hold air? When you have a flat they are much faster to fix. Just rip the flat off the rim and stick on another from the collection you have strapped under the seat :-) John B. Have you ever fixed a tubular on the side of the road? Or even in the shop at home? No one just rips off the flat tubular and quickly sticks the new one on the rim. Does not happen that way in the real world. Maybe in fantasy land. Tubulars are glued on very well. It takes a lot of pulling and prying to get a little bit of the tire off the rim. Then a lot of strength to slowly pull the rest of the tire off the rim. Several minutes of work or more. Then to put the new one on, you better pray it is well stretched on an old rim. You start at one side and slowly work it onto the rim with old glue. Slowly pulling it on. Then the last few inches you strain and stress until maybe hopefully you get it on. Then you spend several more minutes trying to get the tire somewhat straight on the rim. The old glue does not allow the tire to be moved very easily. Keep living in your fantasy world. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYwfMlEGWlA Or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07LT-fGnpvk which parallels my experiences. -- Cheers, John B. |
#207
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Stronger rubber cement?
On 1/18/2017 7:06 PM, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 18 Jan 2017 15:01:43 -0500, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 1/18/2017 1:29 PM, wrote: On Tuesday, January 17, 2017 at 8:10:41 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote: I have a set of wheels with sew ups somewhere. I last used them maybe 40 years ago. I've never raced, so sew ups offer no benefits to me. I wonder if they still will hold air? When you have a flat they are much faster to fix. Just rip the flat off the rim and stick on another from the collection you have strapped under the seat :-) John B. Have you ever fixed a tubular on the side of the road? Or even in the shop at home? No one just rips off the flat tubular and quickly sticks the new one on the rim. Does not happen that way in the real world. Maybe in fantasy land. Tubulars are glued on very well. It takes a lot of pulling and prying to get a little bit of the tire off the rim. Then a lot of strength to slowly pull the rest of the tire off the rim. Several minutes of work or more. Then to put the new one on, you better pray it is well stretched on an old rim. You start at one side and slowly work it onto the rim with old glue. Slowly pulling it on. Then the last few inches you strain and stress until maybe hopefully you get it on. Then you spend several more minutes trying to get the tire somewhat straight on the rim. The old glue does not allow the tire to be moved very easily. Keep living in your fantasy world. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYwfMlEGWlA Or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07LT-fGnpvk which parallels my experiences. -- Cheers, John B. Good technique. If the last bit is tight on the rim, you will have a lumpy valve area and short tire life. I usually do that without neon nail polish. Is that OK? -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
#208
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Stronger rubber cement?
Phil Lee wrote:
:Joerg considered Wed, 18 Jan 2017 : :I have explained to you that these are _flat_ rims. Hard to understand? :Most of us never seem to have encountered such rims, so yes, it is :hard to understand that any manufacturer would produce such an utterly :useless design! :Are you sure they aren't cheap Chinese knockoffs of a normally good :quality product? No, they're real. And they suck. I can believe 30 minutes to put a tire on them. Why he hasn't gotten something less crappy, I don't know. Oh. He woulnd't be able to bitch about it. -- sig 81 |
#209
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Stronger rubber cement?
On Wednesday, January 18, 2017 at 4:48:04 PM UTC-8, Phil Lee wrote:
jbeattie considered Tue, 17 Jan 2017 18:10:48 -0800 (PST) the perfect time to write: On Tuesday, January 17, 2017 at 5:59:34 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote: On Tue, 17 Jan 2017 07:50:19 -0800, Joerg wrote: On 2017-01-16 19:28, jbeattie wrote: On Monday, January 16, 2017 at 4:23:53 PM UTC-8, Joerg wrote: On 2017-01-16 13:39, Sir Ridesalot wrote: On Monday, January 16, 2017 at 2:39:18 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote: On Monday, January 16, 2017 at 11:03:05 AM UTC-8, Joerg wrote: On 2017-01-16 10:43, David Scheidt wrote: Joerg wrote: :Yup. Standard bicycle tubes are usually junk. Would you accept it if you :had to pump up the tires of your car every two weeks? Yet most cyclists :think this is "normal". Automotive tires have a much lower ratio of surface area to volume than bike tires. They're also run a lower pressure, for the most part. Truck tires are often operated around 50psi or higher. Like my MTB tires are. A truck tire weights as a much as TWO UCI minimum race bikes -- or one DH bike. Now throw in the rim. You have peculiar expectations for bicycles. You're theoretically perfect bike would weigh about 250lbs. -- Jay Beattie. I've said it before and I'll say it again. What Joerg's wants in a bicycle are would be met by a 250cc dirt-motorcycle converted to pedal power and the engine removed. I find it astounding that so many others who ride in very harsh conditions do NOT have the breakages or other problems that Joerg does. According to several bicycle shop owners they do. Many said that two factors allowed them to survive as a business: 1. Mountain bikers breaking stuff all the time. 2. Department store bike buyers who needed help and found that the store that sold their bikes was less than helpful. Unlike cars, which never need to be fixed, and that's why there are no auto repair shops. http://tinyurl.com/jba5fgb Care to compare the number of vehicles plus the miles traveled? Maybe then it becomes more clear. Cars are way more reliable than bicycles. Especially if you buy top quality cars like we did. Other than regular scheduled maintenance there were no breakdowns in the whole two decades we own them. None, as in zero. Not even one flat tire. Try that with a bicycle. You talk about your auto escapades as hauling a half a cord of wood in your SUV. You describe your bicycle riding as speeding down rocky hills, leaping over bumps and unexpectedly diving into lakes. If you drove your car the way that you claim to ride your bike I think that you would have a very different concept of how bullet proof your car is. I've spent considerable time around trucks that haul heavy loads over unimproved roads and my experience was that they definitely did require frequent repairs. I've also been around off the road racing cars and they took even more maintenance than the trucks. As usual, you are not comparing apples and apples. I ride with a guy who races motorcycles. He can go through a set of tires over the course of weekend -- and they cost a mint. Talk about an expensive hobby. -- Jay Beattie. Only one set? That must be a restricted formula. When I used to help as an amateur mechanic for my neighbour, who raced motorcycles to a national level, tyres lasted exactly one race. likewise chains. Piston rings, one day, pistons, a weekend, cylinders several times in a year, clutches before each meeting. Plus anything that breaks, and of course, different internal gears and sprockets are used for each circuit, to give the best gearing, along with different pad compounds and disk diameters to suit circuit and conditions. Various other parts were replaced on a regular basis as well, but it's a long time ago now, so my list is not exhaustive. Tyres capable of performing in the wet would be shredded in a couple of laps if the circuit dried out. The grinding from mud, dust, grit and sand creates even greater wear on racing motocross bikes, and to increase performance, intake air is barely filtered, if at all. At the more extreme level (F1, Indy, NASCAR for cars, IoM-TT for bikes), tyres are changed several times DURING the race, and the cars or bikes are essentially new for each meeting, with ALL parts that can possibly wear being replaced, and often other parts swapped for ones more suitable for the different circuit! The most extreme example I can think of off-hand is Formula E, where the entire car is changed half-way through each race, when the battery goes flat - so all the other allowed wear components are designed to last only half a race! That is a fairer comparison for a machine which you ride to it's limits, not your false one of a softly tuned road vehicle, designed to reach it's warranty period even if driven to the limits the road will allow, if properly serviced and normal wear items replaced on schedule. On that continuum, I wonder where Joerg falls. It sometimes sounds like he's taking a Ford Taurus on the Baja 1000 -- a Taurus held together with hose clamps. -- Jay Beattie. |
#210
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Stronger rubber cement?
Joerg considered Mon, 16 Jan 2017
10:01:41 -0800 the perfect time to write: On 2017-01-05 08:31, AMuzi wrote: On 1/5/2017 9:59 AM, Joerg wrote: On 2017-01-05 07:34, wrote: On Wednesday, January 4, 2017 at 8:47:35 PM UTC-8, Phil Lee wrote: Joerg considered Wed, 04 Jan 2017 07:38:10 -0800 the perfect time to write: On 2017-01-04 01:19, Tosspot wrote: On 04/01/17 01:04, Joerg wrote: Gentlemen, Is there something stronger than the usual rubber cement in the patch kits? Ideally something that won't dry out so fast or where multiple cheap small tubes are available. The reason is that I sometimes have larger holes from side wall blow-outs. Not inch-long gashes but one or two tenths of an inch long. The tubes I use are super thick and, therefore, expensive. $15-20 each and that's not something to be thrown out lightly. Instead of the li'l REMA patches I need to use thicker rubber from an older sacrified tube but this has to be vulcanized/cemented really well. UK, but must be available all over http://www.tyre-equipment.co.uk/acat...r-Patches.html Go up to 180mmx95mm and are less than a UKP per patch. Thanks! Time for a trip to the autoparts store since there is http://www.vipal-usa.com/repair_line_e.html Looks like a Brazilian company. The 30mm patches are 13 squids per 100! Surely, surely even Joerg can't get through that amount that fast! I hardly get flats but when I do they are hardcore. Typically caused by those notorious #%&^!! flimsy side walls of bicycle tires. Which is also why I am always on the lookout for tires with better side walls. For the MTB I found that Asian ones do better in that domain but haven't found any yet for the road bike. Will try CST, their Conquistare tires look promising but I could not find reviews. Heavier tires are generally better and finally those appeared for 29". For 700c it's still slim pickens. You do know that 29" ARE 700c, both using a bead seat diameter of 622mm? It's just that one description is used for MTB and the other for road use. I have been told that many times. But my CX bike feels absolutely NOTHING like the 29er did. On that the wheels felt massive and heavy. On the CX bike they are nothing of the sort. Phil should try to mount a 29" Intense Trail Taker tire or similar on a 700c road bike. Then it would quickly sink in why this will never work :-) Joerg, don't be ridiculous. Phil Lee was correct. Tires formally labeled as 29" are simply not available in 25mm. At least AFAICT. I know you struggle with the real world, and complex mathematical concepts like wheel diameters, but surely even YOU can add 2x 25mm to 622mm, and conclude that the result is less than 29"! Just in case, 672mm = 26.46, or in round figures, 26 1/2", so it's hardly surprising that it is not mislabeled as 29"! A 559mm 26x2.3 tire will mount on the rim but can't possibly fit inside the frame or fork of a Bridgestone CB1. So what? A perfectly common 700-35C touring tire won't clear in your road bike either. That unsuitably wide tires exist for any given rim diameter in any given frame doesn't make them different ISO sizes. There are a spectrum of widths for almost every ISO format, choice is good! Well, there aren't skinny 29" tires. The thing you need for compatibility is BEAD SEAT DIAMETER, which is 622mm for both the so-called 29" (which isn't really 29" except in 2.25" width, and even then only roughly), and so-called 700C (which again, isn't really 700mm in diameter in anything other than 39mm width either). The move from using overall diameter of a mounted and inflated tyre to the use of bead seat diameters, as approved by ISO and ETRTO is because it is only by using the bead seat diameter that you can tell which tyre fits which rim. And any 29", 700C, xx-622 will fit your rims, whatever width it may be. Of course, it may not be the ideal width for the rim, or too wide for the frame or forks, but it WILL mount on the rim. GET IT? I can only hope that you never have to deal with the complexities of the various 26" formats! p.s. A 700-18 ultralight tire would fit your road bike rim as well. For you, I'd suggest a wider tire. Yes, I had very narrow tires before and found that 25mm is better for where I now ride. 28mm would theoretically fit but only when the rear is very well trued which does not hold for long on my routes. I am also not very talented for trueing a wheel. Maybe that (along with your notable level of machinery abuse) is the real reason you insist that only disk brakes are worth using. |
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