Stronger rubber cement?

On Sat, 21 Jan 2017 07:59:42 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-01-20 18:08, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 20 Jan 2017 16:13:02 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-01-20 15:53, John B. wrote:


[...]

... Given that
the usual sped of professional MTB racers is in the 18 mph range for
average courses and in fact one site discussing professional racers
states that, " An impressive pace for a pro mountain biker, on
average, could be around 15 mph, or a 4-minute mile."
^^^^^^^^



Do you, like some here, not understand the difference between average
speed and top speed? Nobody can hold 20mph on a MTB for three hours but
it is easy to do that on a flat section for a limited time. It is by
nature limited because the terrain on other sections would make 20mph
almost a suicide ride.

My point back then was not to brag about me being a super action hero
because I am not. The point was that I believe MTBs must be capable of
sustaining regular 20mph episodes on a raggedy trail where everything
rattles.


You are unbelievable! First you say that "Nobody can hold 20mph on a
MTB for three hours" and then you say "MTBs must be capable of
sustaining regular 20mph episodes on a raggedy trail".

So tell us, how long is an "episode"? Are you talking about an hour?
20 minutes? 5 seconds?


sigh

It depends on the trail. Typically 10-15 minutes if there is sufficient
flat stretch. Usually there will be brief interruptions for bends or
when you don't want to chance it bombing through a creek.

I cannot hold that sort of speed for much longer and never said so. I am
sure my bike dealer could hold that speed and more for a long time on
his MTB.


As I said before, I can't understand why you aren't riding for a pro
team, after all the average for the tour de France, on super light
weight bicycles, on paved roads, with nearly constant care and feeding
by a team, is only 24 mph.


So you do seem to be one of those here who cannot grasp the difference
between average speed and top speed?


Of course I can. But I remind you that you didn't use the words
"average speed" or "top speed". You stated "my usual speed". The book
definition of "usual" is "in accordance with regular practice or
procedure" which leads one to believe that you regularly ride at 20
mph.

The point was that you "usually" ride at 20 mph out in the wild. Or
83% of the speed that the pros ride on smooth pavement.


Besides, if I went 20mph average (which I can't and never claimed) I
would not even remotely stand a chance in any bike race. Bike races are
for others, not for me and I never had any ambition to particpate in one.


... But you do 83% of that speed on a heavy
clunky mountain bike through the mud so think that you have to poke it
off with a special stick that you carry.


We do happen to have summers out here where there is no mud. Is it so
hard to understand that there are _seasons_ even on singletrack? The
weather does not miraculously run a circle around the area.


Incredible!


How fast do you go on your road bike? For how long? I can hold 22mph for
half an hour. A friend goes 25mph and when I follow him I am totally
bushed, so I don't know what you find miraculous. A MTB is just a little
heavier and has higher rolling resistance but not a lot. Going 20mph on
one of those is something every somewhat fit rider should do. If you
can't and you are not grossly overweight I suggest to see a
cardiovascular specialist. Of course, this assumes that one does not
ride with minimum pressure in the tires like many mountain bikers do. I
keep them above 50 psi.

Much ado about nothing. You tell me that you can ride on the road at
22 mph, but what does that have to do with riding in the bush as you
have been talking about.

Or are you now going to tell us that "Oh yes, the single tracks I ride
are smooth paved roads"?


BTW when is the last time you rode a decent mountain bike? 20 years ago?
Fast forward to this century. On modern MTB such as mine you can lock
out both front and read suspension _while_ riding. For the rear with the
flick of a switch, on the front by turning a dial. I can even fine-tune
the response of the fork while riding, making it harder or softer
depending on trail conditions. So far for "clunky".

[...]

Whatever does riding at 20 MPH up and down hills, leaping over huge
rocks and diving into creeks and rivers that you tell us you do, have
to do with the ability to lock the suspension.

Other that to change the subject, of course.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sat, 21 Jan 2017 08:32:48 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-01-20 17:51, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 20 Jan 2017 16:01:23 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-01-20 15:38, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 20 Jan 2017 07:43:20 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-01-19 19:00, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 19 Jan 2017 14:57:42 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-01-19 14:39, Doug Landau wrote:

On road bikes it usually happens when hitting a rock "just so". Like
when the rock gets under the tire off center and flies off to the side
with gusto.

Haha and makes a loud CRACK as it hits the passenger door or window of the car to your left :-)


No kidding, that has happend. Also, drivers give me extra wide margin
when I just came off a dirt path in bad weather and all sorts of gunk
flies off my rear wheel.

I am beginning to wonder.

You have repeatedly stated that your usual speed is 20 MPH. Now, a 26
x 3.0 tire will be spinning at about 250 RPM at that speed..... But
this speeding tire accumulates "all kind of gunk"?


As explained many times 20mph is the speed on flat sections of trail or
slightly higher when downsloping a little. My average trail speed is
more around 10-12mph depending on turf unless I want to push it. Meaning
there are murky or gnarly stretches in the low single digit mph. There
are people on this NG who do not understand the difference between top
speed and average speed.

On such trails I often slow down to enjoy the scenery, animals, and so
on. Something that the "bicycles belong on road" people will likely
never understand.

Then I ride on 29" wheels. A usual scenario is that I come back on
singletrack from Placerville and the last section before entering a
regular road is this:

http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/Chapparal2.jpg

Imagine that after three days of rain. Also, on rainy days my average
speed on the "real" trail can drop substantially because the rear wheel
becomes stuck several times. Big clump of mud caked up near the BB,
wheel will hardly turn even in granny gear, have to stop, look around
for a sturdy branch piece of manzanita, poke the mud out of there,
continue the ride. Until it gets stuck again a few miles later.
Sometimes it's so bad that I strap that piece of manzanita onto the rack.


I ask as my road bike, who's wheels are spinning at only about 157 RPM
don't seem to accumulate any junk at all.


Well, do your road bike tires have knobbies? BTW, my road bike does
fling dirt off the wheels after a muddy stretch of "bush road" and I
have caked up its BB area with mud. Usually purposely rolling through
some water puddles washes the mud off the tires, something that does not
work for the MTB tires.

You are almost unbelievable. You have a double handful of mud lodged
on the bottom bracket and you need to run about and find a stick to
dislodge it.

Why can't you just grab a handful and throw it on the ground... oh, of
course you'd get your fingers dirty, wouldn't you.


Can you possibly imagine that there are occasions where one wants to
arrive at a destination without dirty hands? Even when ... gasp ...
using a bicycle for transportation in ... oh horror! ... non-ideal
weather along less than stellar paths?


Sure I can, but you say that are riding through the woods at speeds
not obtainable by professional MTB racers ...


This statement makes me sure that you have no clue about mountain
biking. Pros will leave me in the dust (and have) because a rider doing
20mph on a flat stretch of trail is something they consider a slowpoke.


... and you don't want to get
your hands dirty. But you are talking about California, where. if I
remember, it gets hot. You mean after your 20 MPH trip through 50
miles of "pristine wilderness" I believe you called it, you are not
covered with sweat and stinking like a goat?


In the summer I am totally drenched. Which is why I sometimes carry a
2nd T-shirt and a small towel in the panniers depending on where I go.
Other times I dunk it in a creek and also splash water over myself.

And where did I ever write about 20mph over 50 miles? Don't make stuff
up and falsely claim people wrote that. Because I didn't. Leave that
sort of stuff to the media, they are good at fake news lately :-)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_DETYq4WoE

Do you think these are all Tour de France riders? They are going around
20mph (speedometer shows km/h), they aren't breaking much of a sweat and
they are even chatting at times.

Sorry but you are wrong (again) the AVERAGE speed of a Tour rider on
level road is 25 - 28 mph. Or 25 - 40% faster than you estimate.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sat, 21 Jan 2017 15:44:52 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 1/21/2017 11:32 AM, Joerg wrote:

Other times I dunk it in a creek and also splash water over myself.

And where did I ever write about 20mph over 50 miles? Don't make stuff
up and falsely claim people wrote that. Because I didn't. Leave that
sort of stuff to the media, they are good at fake news lately :-)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_DETYq4WoE

Do you think these are all Tour de France riders? They are going around
20mph (speedometer shows km/h), they aren't breaking much of a sweat and
they are even chatting at times.

There's also a lot of coasting, which makes me strongly suspect that
they're on a long, gentle downgrade.

I suspect that the peleton is far more photogenic on the level or
slightly downhill sections all bunched up. On a hill they get sort of
strung out :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sat, 21 Jan 2017 15:38:49 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 1/21/2017 1:42 AM, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 20 Jan 2017 21:48:19 -0800 (PST), Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On Friday, January 20, 2017 at 9:10:34 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:


Being a cowardly old man when it gets slippery I slow down :-)

Being a sensible, slightly younger man, I agree and do the same!

- Frank Krygowski

I also admit to deliberately running off the road to avoid being hit
by a truck :-)

So far, I haven't had to do that. But then, I've only been riding for
about 45 years - plus the riding I did as a kid or teen.

Well, I thought at the time, and still do today, that the brambles I
ended up in were much preferable to the front bumper of the truck :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

Zagain, the danger quotient is the immediacy of fatal crippling injury pursuing an unprotected un-essential activity in a herd of violent longhorn ed bulls.

The approach F advocates assumes an incorrect representation of reality then calculates a logical result.

On 1/22/2017 12:58 AM, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 21 Jan 2017 08:32:48 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-01-20 17:51, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 20 Jan 2017 16:01:23 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-01-20 15:38, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 20 Jan 2017 07:43:20 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-01-19 19:00, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 19 Jan 2017 14:57:42 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-01-19 14:39, Doug Landau wrote:

On road bikes it usually happens when hitting a rock "just so". Like
when the rock gets under the tire off center and flies off to the side
with gusto.

Haha and makes a loud CRACK as it hits the passenger door or window of the car to your left :-)


No kidding, that has happend. Also, drivers give me extra wide margin
when I just came off a dirt path in bad weather and all sorts of gunk
flies off my rear wheel.

I am beginning to wonder.

You have repeatedly stated that your usual speed is 20 MPH. Now, a 26
x 3.0 tire will be spinning at about 250 RPM at that speed..... But
this speeding tire accumulates "all kind of gunk"?


As explained many times 20mph is the speed on flat sections of trail or
slightly higher when downsloping a little. My average trail speed is
more around 10-12mph depending on turf unless I want to push it. Meaning
there are murky or gnarly stretches in the low single digit mph. There
are people on this NG who do not understand the difference between top
speed and average speed.

On such trails I often slow down to enjoy the scenery, animals, and so
on. Something that the "bicycles belong on road" people will likely
never understand.

Then I ride on 29" wheels. A usual scenario is that I come back on
singletrack from Placerville and the last section before entering a
regular road is this:

http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/Chapparal2.jpg

Imagine that after three days of rain. Also, on rainy days my average
speed on the "real" trail can drop substantially because the rear wheel
becomes stuck several times. Big clump of mud caked up near the BB,
wheel will hardly turn even in granny gear, have to stop, look around
for a sturdy branch piece of manzanita, poke the mud out of there,
continue the ride. Until it gets stuck again a few miles later.
Sometimes it's so bad that I strap that piece of manzanita onto the rack.


I ask as my road bike, who's wheels are spinning at only about 157 RPM
don't seem to accumulate any junk at all.


Well, do your road bike tires have knobbies? BTW, my road bike does
fling dirt off the wheels after a muddy stretch of "bush road" and I
have caked up its BB area with mud. Usually purposely rolling through
some water puddles washes the mud off the tires, something that does not
work for the MTB tires.

You are almost unbelievable. You have a double handful of mud lodged
on the bottom bracket and you need to run about and find a stick to
dislodge it.

Why can't you just grab a handful and throw it on the ground... oh, of
course you'd get your fingers dirty, wouldn't you.


Can you possibly imagine that there are occasions where one wants to
arrive at a destination without dirty hands? Even when ... gasp ...
using a bicycle for transportation in ... oh horror! ... non-ideal
weather along less than stellar paths?


Sure I can, but you say that are riding through the woods at speeds
not obtainable by professional MTB racers ...


This statement makes me sure that you have no clue about mountain
biking. Pros will leave me in the dust (and have) because a rider doing
20mph on a flat stretch of trail is something they consider a slowpoke.


... and you don't want to get
your hands dirty. But you are talking about California, where. if I
remember, it gets hot. You mean after your 20 MPH trip through 50
miles of "pristine wilderness" I believe you called it, you are not
covered with sweat and stinking like a goat?


In the summer I am totally drenched. Which is why I sometimes carry a
2nd T-shirt and a small towel in the panniers depending on where I go.
Other times I dunk it in a creek and also splash water over myself.

And where did I ever write about 20mph over 50 miles? Don't make stuff
up and falsely claim people wrote that. Because I didn't. Leave that
sort of stuff to the media, they are good at fake news lately :-)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_DETYq4WoE

Do you think these are all Tour de France riders? They are going around
20mph (speedometer shows km/h), they aren't breaking much of a sweat and
they are even chatting at times.

Sorry but you are wrong (again) the AVERAGE speed of a Tour rider on
level road is 25 - 28 mph. Or 25 - 40% faster than you estimate.

And lets remember that the Tour's average speed includes _lots_ of time
riding within a huge peloton, with almost all riders sheltered from the
wind. That makes a huge difference.



--
- Frank Krygowski

On 2017-01-21 21:58, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 21 Jan 2017 08:32:48 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-01-20 17:51, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 20 Jan 2017 16:01:23 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-01-20 15:38, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 20 Jan 2017 07:43:20 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-01-19 19:00, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 19 Jan 2017 14:57:42 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-01-19 14:39, Doug Landau wrote:

On road bikes it usually happens when hitting a rock "just so". Like
when the rock gets under the tire off center and flies off to the side
with gusto.

Haha and makes a loud CRACK as it hits the passenger door or window of the car to your left :-)


No kidding, that has happend. Also, drivers give me extra wide margin
when I just came off a dirt path in bad weather and all sorts of gunk
flies off my rear wheel.

I am beginning to wonder.

You have repeatedly stated that your usual speed is 20 MPH. Now, a 26
x 3.0 tire will be spinning at about 250 RPM at that speed..... But
this speeding tire accumulates "all kind of gunk"?


As explained many times 20mph is the speed on flat sections of trail or
slightly higher when downsloping a little. My average trail speed is
more around 10-12mph depending on turf unless I want to push it. Meaning
there are murky or gnarly stretches in the low single digit mph. There
are people on this NG who do not understand the difference between top
speed and average speed.

On such trails I often slow down to enjoy the scenery, animals, and so
on. Something that the "bicycles belong on road" people will likely
never understand.

Then I ride on 29" wheels. A usual scenario is that I come back on
singletrack from Placerville and the last section before entering a
regular road is this:

http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/Chapparal2.jpg

Imagine that after three days of rain. Also, on rainy days my average
speed on the "real" trail can drop substantially because the rear wheel
becomes stuck several times. Big clump of mud caked up near the BB,
wheel will hardly turn even in granny gear, have to stop, look around
for a sturdy branch piece of manzanita, poke the mud out of there,
continue the ride. Until it gets stuck again a few miles later.
Sometimes it's so bad that I strap that piece of manzanita onto the rack.


I ask as my road bike, who's wheels are spinning at only about 157 RPM
don't seem to accumulate any junk at all.


Well, do your road bike tires have knobbies? BTW, my road bike does
fling dirt off the wheels after a muddy stretch of "bush road" and I
have caked up its BB area with mud. Usually purposely rolling through
some water puddles washes the mud off the tires, something that does not
work for the MTB tires.

You are almost unbelievable. You have a double handful of mud lodged
on the bottom bracket and you need to run about and find a stick to
dislodge it.

Why can't you just grab a handful and throw it on the ground... oh, of
course you'd get your fingers dirty, wouldn't you.


Can you possibly imagine that there are occasions where one wants to
arrive at a destination without dirty hands? Even when ... gasp ...
using a bicycle for transportation in ... oh horror! ... non-ideal
weather along less than stellar paths?


Sure I can, but you say that are riding through the woods at speeds
not obtainable by professional MTB racers ...


This statement makes me sure that you have no clue about mountain
biking. Pros will leave me in the dust (and have) because a rider doing
20mph on a flat stretch of trail is something they consider a slowpoke.


... and you don't want to get
your hands dirty. But you are talking about California, where. if I
remember, it gets hot. You mean after your 20 MPH trip through 50
miles of "pristine wilderness" I believe you called it, you are not
covered with sweat and stinking like a goat?


In the summer I am totally drenched. Which is why I sometimes carry a
2nd T-shirt and a small towel in the panniers depending on where I go.
Other times I dunk it in a creek and also splash water over myself.

And where did I ever write about 20mph over 50 miles? Don't make stuff
up and falsely claim people wrote that. Because I didn't. Leave that
sort of stuff to the media, they are good at fake news lately :-)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_DETYq4WoE

Do you think these are all Tour de France riders? They are going around
20mph (speedometer shows km/h), they aren't breaking much of a sweat and
they are even chatting at times.

Sorry but you are wrong (again) the AVERAGE speed of a Tour rider on
level road is 25 - 28 mph. Or 25 - 40% faster than you estimate.


Now you have it thoroughly mixed up. You should start to read in context.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 2017-01-21 21:45, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 21 Jan 2017 07:59:42 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-01-20 18:08, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 20 Jan 2017 16:13:02 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-01-20 15:53, John B. wrote:


[...]

... Given that
the usual sped of professional MTB racers is in the 18 mph range for
average courses and in fact one site discussing professional racers
states that, " An impressive pace for a pro mountain biker, on
average, could be around 15 mph, or a 4-minute mile."
^^^^^^^^



Do you, like some here, not understand the difference between average
speed and top speed? Nobody can hold 20mph on a MTB for three hours but
it is easy to do that on a flat section for a limited time. It is by
nature limited because the terrain on other sections would make 20mph
almost a suicide ride.

My point back then was not to brag about me being a super action hero
because I am not. The point was that I believe MTBs must be capable of
sustaining regular 20mph episodes on a raggedy trail where everything
rattles.


You are unbelievable! First you say that "Nobody can hold 20mph on a
MTB for three hours" and then you say "MTBs must be capable of
sustaining regular 20mph episodes on a raggedy trail".

So tell us, how long is an "episode"? Are you talking about an hour?
20 minutes? 5 seconds?


sigh

It depends on the trail. Typically 10-15 minutes if there is sufficient
flat stretch. Usually there will be brief interruptions for bends or
when you don't want to chance it bombing through a creek.

I cannot hold that sort of speed for much longer and never said so. I am
sure my bike dealer could hold that speed and more for a long time on
his MTB.


As I said before, I can't understand why you aren't riding for a pro
team, after all the average for the tour de France, on super light
weight bicycles, on paved roads, with nearly constant care and feeding
by a team, is only 24 mph.


So you do seem to be one of those here who cannot grasp the difference
between average speed and top speed?


Of course I can. But I remind you that you didn't use the words
"average speed" or "top speed". You stated "my usual speed".


No. I said "I routinely ride at 20mph". Look up what "routinely" means.
And no, it does not mean average.

[...]

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 2017-01-21 18:11, Joy Beeson wrote:
On Sat, 21 Jan 2017 07:42:00 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

When you go on trails, it will. I have had very tightly packed panniers
stuffed out with towels and other things. Two miles down the trail I
opened one to look if I had turned on the cell phone. Everything was
upside down. It is like a roller coaster in there.

You've got to leave it no room to wiggle.


Doesn't work. Some stuff such as sandwiches is soft. Brewing grains from
the brew store are like coarse sand. Other things like the just
purchased bottle caps for brewing are like gravel. Then there are thin
plastic water bottles. Lastly, very hard stuff such as a lock, tools,
etc. The forces that are at work on a rough dirt trail at reasonable
speed are very high. It doesn't happen on roads but does on singletrack.


Perhaps the clue is that I use wire panniers, which are rigid and
rectangular. Things would have to deform a *lot* to rotate.


The only way to make things not rotate in there would be to fill them to
the brim with wood plank stacks cut to exact size :-)


I've learned to tie the handles of my bag of bags together. One day,
in front of Panda Express, I balanced my bag of bags on the other
pannier while I made space in my cooler for my chocolate-chunk cookie,
and it blew away. I calmly walked after it and when I'd nearly caught
it, a bag fell out and it picked up speed. I plucked the errant bag
off a convenient hedge and commenced to run. The faster the bag
rolled, the more bags fell out, and the more bags fell out, the faster
it rolled. I ended up chasing the thing across two parking lots and a
Meijer exit, and up somebody's driveway, where the landscaping finally
stopped what was left of it. Quite a lot of litter escaped
permanently.

It was embarrassing, but at least none of it blew onto US 30.


Yeah, those are the days. When you have to lean 20 degrees into the wind
in order to cycle a straight line. Doen that a lot in the Netherlands.
They've got hardly any hills but lots of wind. One trick was to don a
jacket on the way home (which meant east for me), ride hands-free and
use the hands to hold it wide open like a sail. Not for the faint of
heart because this can cause a hard pavement landing.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 1/22/2017 10:50 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-21 18:11, Joy Beeson wrote:
On Sat, 21 Jan 2017 07:42:00 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

When you go on trails, it will. I have had very tightly packed panniers
stuffed out with towels and other things. Two miles down the trail I
opened one to look if I had turned on the cell phone. Everything was
upside down. It is like a roller coaster in there.

You've got to leave it no room to wiggle.


Doesn't work.

Not surprising! Has anyone here ever seen any suggestion work for Joerg?

--
- Frank Krygowski