cycling data report

Op woensdag 18 november 2020 om 20:33:51 UTC+1 schreef AMuzi:
On 11/18/2020 10:44 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
Op woensdag 18 november 2020 om 15:11:47 UTC+1 schreef AMuzi:
https://cyclingindustry.news/london-...s-almost-zero/



Damn, we in last place...

Lou

Or first depending on one's viewpoint.

Yeah let's look at it that way. On normal/utility bike no one wears a helmet, on road bikes/ATB's almost everyone wears a helmet. I'm the exception (when riding alone) and now the deacon is saying that I'm not a serious rider. Damn.

Lou

On Wednesday, November 18, 2020 at 2:17:38 PM UTC-6, wrote:
Op woensdag 18 november 2020 om 20:33:51 UTC+1 schreef AMuzi:
On 11/18/2020 10:44 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
Op woensdag 18 november 2020 om 15:11:47 UTC+1 schreef AMuzi:
https://cyclingindustry.news/london-...s-almost-zero/



Damn, we in last place...

Lou

Or first depending on one's viewpoint.
Yeah let's look at it that way. On normal/utility bike no one wears a helmet, on road bikes/ATB's almost everyone wears a helmet. I'm the exception (when riding alone) and now the deacon is saying that I'm not a serious rider. Damn.

Lou

My take on those not serious about riding and not wearing a helmet. I guess the ones I see that never have a helmet usually are on bikes that are relatively inexpensive. Nothing wrong with that but they tend to be utility type bikes, and those that look pretty beat up. I also notice on those same riders they never seem to have the seat height down. To me they are pedaling squat down and most need to seriously raise the saddle. They look like me when I try to run, goofy.

I just cannot see how someone would not want a helmet riding. I agree that in may cases the helmets might not do a lot of good. But clearly they do more good than harm. I just cannot fathom an argument that riding without one is safer. Frankly a motorcycle type helmet is probably what is need but so far I have not done that. I also always ride with gloves, full fingered work gloves I buy at the local box store. Yes I am a guitarist so like to protect the hands. In fact I am a runner and I always run with gloves on even in the intense heat of summer. I have runner's dystonia so running is a challenge and I trip over my feel and can fall easy.

Now that is one thing I wish I could clear up. I manage to qualify to run the Boston Marathon 3 times but never did it some 30 years ago but now I can't remember how to run. I probably should even wear a helmet running. It does not seem to effect me on the bike so that is my outlet. Tried to run this morning and ended up walking fast for 6 miles. I can walk 13-14 minutes miles all day for hours but cannot even get my legs to get 1 miler under 10 minutes. Tripping over my own feet..........maybe a helmet running is now in order.

Deacon Mark

Mark Cleary writes:

On Wednesday, November 18, 2020 at 8:11:47 AM UTC-6, AMuzi wrote:
https://cyclingindustry.news/london-...s-almost-zero/


--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

So people do actually ride a bike without a helmet. I have on occasion
seen someone riding and not wearing a helmet. My first thought is they
are not serious cyclist and stay away. What little brains I have need
all the protection they can get. You are up early Andrew is that your
normal style?

Sure, I ride without a helmet. I'm ok with you or other people,
particularly drivers, staying away.

On Wednesday, November 18, 2020 at 12:56:31 PM UTC-8, wrote:
On Wednesday, November 18, 2020 at 2:17:38 PM UTC-6, wrote:
Op woensdag 18 november 2020 om 20:33:51 UTC+1 schreef AMuzi:
On 11/18/2020 10:44 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
Op woensdag 18 november 2020 om 15:11:47 UTC+1 schreef AMuzi:
https://cyclingindustry.news/london-...s-almost-zero/



Damn, we in last place...

Lou

Or first depending on one's viewpoint.
Yeah let's look at it that way. On normal/utility bike no one wears a helmet, on road bikes/ATB's almost everyone wears a helmet. I'm the exception (when riding alone) and now the deacon is saying that I'm not a serious rider. Damn.

Lou
My take on those not serious about riding and not wearing a helmet. I guess the ones I see that never have a helmet usually are on bikes that are relatively inexpensive. Nothing wrong with that but they tend to be utility type bikes, and those that look pretty beat up. I also notice on those same riders they never seem to have the seat height down. To me they are pedaling squat down and most need to seriously raise the saddle. They look like me when I try to run, goofy.

I just cannot see how someone would not want a helmet riding. I agree that in may cases the helmets might not do a lot of good. But clearly they do more good than harm. I just cannot fathom an argument that riding without one is safer. Frankly a motorcycle type helmet is probably what is need but so far I have not done that. I also always ride with gloves, full fingered work gloves I buy at the local box store. Yes I am a guitarist so like to protect the hands. In fact I am a runner and I always run with gloves on even in the intense heat of summer. I have runner's dystonia so running is a challenge and I trip over my feel and can fall easy.

Now that is one thing I wish I could clear up. I manage to qualify to run the Boston Marathon 3 times but never did it some 30 years ago but now I can't remember how to run. I probably should even wear a helmet running. It does not seem to effect me on the bike so that is my outlet. Tried to run this morning and ended up walking fast for 6 miles. I can walk 13-14 minutes miles all day for hours but cannot even get my legs to get 1 miler under 10 minutes. Tripping over my own feet..........maybe a helmet running is now in order.

Deacon Mark

Helmets are of very little value and I have repeated this here for years only to see people gasping and swearing a me and telling everyone that a helmet saved their lives, not once but many times. Well, it ain't so. Most people know how to fall down as experience from small childhood has built in an instantaneous knowledge. You almost always fall in such a manner that you don't strike your head directly. I'm sure that there are exceptions but in my experience you are likely to hit your head much harder while wearing a helmet than without because it increases the size and weight of your head. You are less likely to get abrasions with a helmet but you are more likely to be knocked a bit silly or to find dents in your helmet on the easiest of falls. I will repeat myself, I do recommend wearing a helmet because they do reduce abrasions which I prefer not to have on a bald head But I don't pretend that I have any increase in safety because I wear a helmet. What differences in falling should you make? Do not try to catch yourself with your hands, use the side of your balled fist to cause a roll out so that you don't drag your hip etc. along the abrasive tarmac. This will also cause you to roll away from your head.

Mortality from a bicycle crash statistics are clear - being hit at high speed by a car. These sorts of accidents are remarkably rare. There are FAR fewer deaths per hour to a bicyclist than any other means of transport. And there are fewer injuries than most other sports (including Golf for crying out loud - almost 100% of golfers will suffer moderate to severe back problems from a game that totally distorts the back muscles and skeletal structure.)

On 11/18/2020 3:56 PM, Mark Cleary wrote:
On Wednesday, November 18, 2020 at 2:17:38 PM UTC-6, wrote:
On normal/utility bike no one wears a helmet, on road bikes/ATB's almost everyone wears a helmet. I'm the exception (when riding alone) and now the deacon is saying that I'm not a serious rider. Damn.

Lou

My take on those not serious about riding and not wearing a helmet. I guess the ones I see that never have a helmet usually are on bikes that are relatively inexpensive. Nothing wrong with that but they tend to be utility type bikes, and those that look pretty beat up. I also notice on those same riders they never seem to have the seat height down. To me they are pedaling squat down and most need to seriously raise the saddle. They look like me when I try to run, goofy.

To rephrase what you wrote: Bicyclists who are not "performance"
oriented (AKA "not serious") are not as inclined to wear helmets.

That's probably true. But it's also true that those "not serious"
cyclists also don't tend to wear lycra shorts, jerseys garishly
advertising corporations, shoes that lock to the pedals, aerodynamic
sunglasses, etc. IOW, they don't buy into the current roadie fashions.

Which is not to say that the fashionista roadies don't benefit from
their current fashions. They are displaying their group-member status,
and on long rides their butts may be more comfortable, their aero drag
may be a little lower. But those things just don't matter to lots of
people.

I just cannot see how someone would not want a helmet riding.

Then think harder! Bike helmets are an ineffective solution to a mostly
imaginary problem.

First, it's a marketing fiction that bicycling is an important source of
serious brain injury or fatality (which is what we were told helmets
prevent). Look up the numbers for pedestrians vs. bicyclists - maybe
5000+ ped fatalities per year, vs. maybe 850 bike fatalities. It's
harder to find the per-mile fatality figures, but there are definitely
more ped fatalities per mile than bike fatalities per mile traveled.
Despite seat belts and air bags there are far more motoring fatalities
per year, well over 30,000. In fact, when you look up causes of serious
brain injuries, bicycling is either at the bottom or _off_ the bottom of
most charts. So why say a relatively safe pastime must have extra
protection? Why portray riding a bike as dangerous? What good does that do?

Then there is the comfort issue. I'm sure you'll claim your helmet is
wonderfully comfortable, but many people do not. Very few have the chin
straps as tight as instructed (just one or two fingers' space) because
it's uncomfortable. Many cyclists tilt the helmet back from the forehead
for comfort, leaving that area unprotected. Many have trouble with the
difficult-to-adjust straps. Some have problems with forehead pads
soaking with sweat during a climb, then pouring salt sweat into their
eyes on the following downhill. And this time of year, it's harder to
wear a warm hat with a helmet.

There's the convenience issue. You've got to carry the thing around,
you've got to lock it to your bike when you park, it's hard to pack when
traveling, it has to be protected from damage. (Back in my helmet days,
I had one stolen during a rest stop. I had another one break when I
slipped and fell as I was carrying it.)

There's the incompatibility with hair styles. "Helmet hair" may not
matter to you and it never mattered to me, but there are people who
really, really care about their looks for personal or professional reasons.

There's also the fact that objectively, the things look pretty
ridiculous. It's a goofy multi-colored plastic hat you wouldn't wear
anywhere else because it just looks weird. Um... kind of like a "team"
jersey, come to think of it.

There's also cost, at least for some people. Our bike club used to give
away reconditioned bikes to folks that couldn't afford $10 for a garage
sale bike. So they're supposed to spend $15 or more for a helmet? They
have more important things to spend their money on, like food!

I agree that in may cases the helmets might not do a lot of good. But clearly they do more good than harm.

That's not nearly as clear as you may think. If you track pedestrian and
bicycle fatalities over the decades, both had long term downward trends.
But bike fatalities did not drop any faster than ped fatalities. IOW,
there was no obvious helmet benefit regarding fatalities - despite the
countless mostly false claims that "my helmet saved my life." (If a
significant portion of those claims were true, there would have been a
detectable drop in deaths.)

More interesting, it's recently come out that during the time bike
helmet use had the greatest surge, bicyclist concussions _rose_ over
60%. And now some helmet promoters are saying that bike helmets cannot
prevent concussions, "but that's OK." They're saying (retroactively)
that bike helmets were never intended to prevent concussions, which is
baloney. All the propaganda was designed to worry people about bicycle
brain injuries. Concussion is the most common brain injury by far.

What helmets do reduce are other _head_ injuries, like scrapes, bruises,
scratches and cuts. And promoters have carefully documented that, but
purposely conflated those _head_ injuries with _brain_ injuries. They
are not the same, and a scrape on a forehead is no worse than a scrape
on a knee.

I just cannot fathom an argument that riding without one is safer.

But it may well be. There's data showing that people wearing helmets are
more likely to crash, or more likely to show up at ER. In one famous
study, 21% of bicyclists showing up at ER had worn helmets. This was
back in the day when a concurrent street survey showed only 3% in
helmets. Those with helmets were seven times more likely to go to ER.
That ratio has reduced, but other newer studies still find that difference.

Why might they crash more? Some may be due to the fact that helmet
wearers are more likely to be "go fast" guys who take things closer to
the edge. But closely related is the fact that a helmet makes people
feel protected, and it's very common for people to say "I'm protected; I
can take that risk" instead of just being more careful. Look up "Risk
Compensation" or "Risk Homeostasis." It's a well known phenomenon.

... maybe a helmet running is now in order.

It may be, especially with the problem you described. But would you ever
really do that?

The fact is, almost nobody makes rational, data-based decisions on their
behavior. Most people do what those in their peer group (actual or
aspirational) do. People have a powerful desire to fit in, to look like
the cool kids.

So despite the much greater brain injury danger of pedestrian travel
(which, I'll admit, is mostly generated by adjacent car traffic) nobody
wears a walking helmet. Despite the much greater potential reduction in
national fatality count plus the ease of storage, lack of sweating
problems etc., nobody wears a helmet in a car. But lots of people wear
helmets biking because, well, "they" tell you to wear a bike helmet; and
lots of people wear bike helmets because lots of people wear bike helmets.

There was a time when lots of people had six foot tall poles attached to
their bikes, with orange pennants at the top. If the flag sellers had
propaganda as good as the helmeteers, lots of people would still have
flags on their bikes. Because fashion is weird and powerful.

Don't push your fashion choices on anyone else.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Wed, 18 Nov 2020 08:25:24 -0800 (PST), Mark Cleary
wrote:

On Wednesday, November 18, 2020 at 8:11:47 AM UTC-6, AMuzi wrote:
https://cyclingindustry.news/london-...s-almost-zero/


--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

So people do actually ride a bike without a helmet. I have on occasion seen someone riding and not wearing a helmet. My first thought is they are not serious cyclist and stay away. What little brains I have need all the protection they can get. You are up early Andrew is that your normal style?

Deacon Mark

https://www.researchgate.net/publica...d_injury_rates


https://www.researchgate.net/publica...d_injury_rates

Seems to indicate that, in a number of countries, participation in
cycling decreased and rates increased with the advent of mandatory
helmet laws.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 11/18/2020 4:38 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/18/2020 3:56 PM, Mark Cleary wrote:
On Wednesday, November 18, 2020 at 2:17:38 PM UTC-6,
wrote:
On normal/utility bike no one wears a helmet, on road
bikes/ATB's almost everyone wears a helmet. I'm the
exception (when riding alone) and now the deacon is
saying that I'm not a serious rider. Damn.

Lou

My take on those not serious about riding and not wearing
a helmet. I guess the ones I see that never have a helmet
usually are on bikes that are relatively inexpensive.
Nothing wrong with that but they tend to be utility type
bikes, and those that look pretty beat up. I also notice
on those same riders they never seem to have the seat
height down. To me they are pedaling squat down and most
need to seriously raise the saddle. They look like me when
I try to run, goofy.

To rephrase what you wrote: Bicyclists who are not
"performance" oriented (AKA "not serious") are not as
inclined to wear helmets.

That's probably true. But it's also true that those "not
serious" cyclists also don't tend to wear lycra shorts,
jerseys garishly advertising corporations, shoes that lock
to the pedals, aerodynamic sunglasses, etc. IOW, they don't
buy into the current roadie fashions.

Which is not to say that the fashionista roadies don't
benefit from their current fashions. They are displaying
their group-member status, and on long rides their butts may
be more comfortable, their aero drag may be a little lower.
But those things just don't matter to lots of people.

I just cannot see how someone would not want a helmet riding.

Then think harder! Bike helmets are an ineffective solution
to a mostly imaginary problem.

First, it's a marketing fiction that bicycling is an
important source of serious brain injury or fatality (which
is what we were told helmets prevent). Look up the numbers
for pedestrians vs. bicyclists - maybe 5000+ ped fatalities
per year, vs. maybe 850 bike fatalities. It's harder to find
the per-mile fatality figures, but there are definitely more
ped fatalities per mile than bike fatalities per mile
traveled. Despite seat belts and air bags there are far more
motoring fatalities per year, well over 30,000. In fact,
when you look up causes of serious brain injuries, bicycling
is either at the bottom or _off_ the bottom of most charts.
So why say a relatively safe pastime must have extra
protection? Why portray riding a bike as dangerous? What
good does that do?

Then there is the comfort issue. I'm sure you'll claim your
helmet is wonderfully comfortable, but many people do not.
Very few have the chin straps as tight as instructed (just
one or two fingers' space) because it's uncomfortable. Many
cyclists tilt the helmet back from the forehead for comfort,
leaving that area unprotected. Many have trouble with the
difficult-to-adjust straps. Some have problems with forehead
pads soaking with sweat during a climb, then pouring salt
sweat into their eyes on the following downhill. And this
time of year, it's harder to wear a warm hat with a helmet.

There's the convenience issue. You've got to carry the thing
around, you've got to lock it to your bike when you park,
it's hard to pack when traveling, it has to be protected
from damage. (Back in my helmet days, I had one stolen
during a rest stop. I had another one break when I slipped
and fell as I was carrying it.)

There's the incompatibility with hair styles. "Helmet hair"
may not matter to you and it never mattered to me, but there
are people who really, really care about their looks for
personal or professional reasons.

There's also the fact that objectively, the things look
pretty ridiculous. It's a goofy multi-colored plastic hat
you wouldn't wear anywhere else because it just looks weird.
Um... kind of like a "team" jersey, come to think of it.

There's also cost, at least for some people. Our bike club
used to give away reconditioned bikes to folks that couldn't
afford $10 for a garage sale bike. So they're supposed to
spend $15 or more for a helmet? They have more important
things to spend their money on, like food!

I agree that in may cases the helmets might not do a lot
of good. But clearly they do more good than harm.

That's not nearly as clear as you may think. If you track
pedestrian and bicycle fatalities over the decades, both had
long term downward trends. But bike fatalities did not drop
any faster than ped fatalities. IOW, there was no obvious
helmet benefit regarding fatalities - despite the countless
mostly false claims that "my helmet saved my life." (If a
significant portion of those claims were true, there would
have been a detectable drop in deaths.)

More interesting, it's recently come out that during the
time bike helmet use had the greatest surge, bicyclist
concussions _rose_ over 60%. And now some helmet promoters
are saying that bike helmets cannot prevent concussions,
"but that's OK." They're saying (retroactively) that bike
helmets were never intended to prevent concussions, which is
baloney. All the propaganda was designed to worry people
about bicycle brain injuries. Concussion is the most common
brain injury by far.

What helmets do reduce are other _head_ injuries, like
scrapes, bruises, scratches and cuts. And promoters have
carefully documented that, but purposely conflated those
_head_ injuries with _brain_ injuries. They are not the
same, and a scrape on a forehead is no worse than a scrape
on a knee.

I just cannot fathom an argument that riding without one
is safer.

But it may well be. There's data showing that people wearing
helmets are more likely to crash, or more likely to show up
at ER. In one famous study, 21% of bicyclists showing up at
ER had worn helmets. This was back in the day when a
concurrent street survey showed only 3% in helmets. Those
with helmets were seven times more likely to go to ER. That
ratio has reduced, but other newer studies still find that
difference.

Why might they crash more? Some may be due to the fact that
helmet wearers are more likely to be "go fast" guys who take
things closer to the edge. But closely related is the fact
that a helmet makes people feel protected, and it's very
common for people to say "I'm protected; I can take that
risk" instead of just being more careful. Look up "Risk
Compensation" or "Risk Homeostasis." It's a well known
phenomenon.

... maybe a helmet running is now in order.

It may be, especially with the problem you described. But
would you ever really do that?

The fact is, almost nobody makes rational, data-based
decisions on their behavior. Most people do what those in
their peer group (actual or aspirational) do. People have a
powerful desire to fit in, to look like the cool kids.

So despite the much greater brain injury danger of
pedestrian travel (which, I'll admit, is mostly generated by
adjacent car traffic) nobody wears a walking helmet. Despite
the much greater potential reduction in national fatality
count plus the ease of storage, lack of sweating problems
etc., nobody wears a helmet in a car. But lots of people
wear helmets biking because, well, "they" tell you to wear a
bike helmet; and lots of people wear bike helmets because
lots of people wear bike helmets.

There was a time when lots of people had six foot tall poles
attached to their bikes, with orange pennants at the top. If
the flag sellers had propaganda as good as the helmeteers,
lots of people would still have flags on their bikes.
Because fashion is weird and powerful.

Don't push your fashion choices on anyone else.


Unless it's a piece of tee shirt with strings across one's
face. Then it becomes a mandatory virtue signal item.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Wednesday, November 18, 2020 at 5:13:33 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 18 Nov 2020 08:25:24 -0800 (PST), Mark Cleary
wrote:

On Wednesday, November 18, 2020 at 8:11:47 AM UTC-6, AMuzi wrote:
https://cyclingindustry.news/london-...s-almost-zero/


--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

So people do actually ride a bike without a helmet. I have on occasion seen someone riding and not wearing a helmet. My first thought is they are not serious cyclist and stay away. What little brains I have need all the protection they can get. You are up early Andrew is that your normal style?

Deacon Mark
https://www.researchgate.net/publica...d_injury_rates


https://www.researchgate.net/publica...d_injury_rates

Seems to indicate that, in a number of countries, participation in
cycling decreased and rates increased with the advent of mandatory
helmet laws.
--
Cheers,

John B.
Frank do whatever you want, personally i am going to wear my bike helmet. I have little brains as it is...................
Deacon Mark

On Wed, 18 Nov 2020 16:34:02 -0800 (PST), Mark Cleary
wrote:

On Wednesday, November 18, 2020 at 5:13:33 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 18 Nov 2020 08:25:24 -0800 (PST), Mark Cleary
wrote:

On Wednesday, November 18, 2020 at 8:11:47 AM UTC-6, AMuzi wrote:
https://cyclingindustry.news/london-...s-almost-zero/


--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

So people do actually ride a bike without a helmet. I have on occasion seen someone riding and not wearing a helmet. My first thought is they are not serious cyclist and stay away. What little brains I have need all the protection they can get. You are up early Andrew is that your normal style?

Deacon Mark
https://www.researchgate.net/publica...d_injury_rates


https://www.researchgate.net/publica...d_injury_rates

Seems to indicate that, in a number of countries, participation in
cycling decreased and rates increased with the advent of mandatory
helmet laws.
--
Cheers,

John B.
Frank do whatever you want, personally i am going to wear my bike helmet. I have little brains as it is...................
Deacon Mark


Yes, do what you want to do :-) But I wear a helmet for, perhaps, the
most logical reason...

My wife nags me if I don't :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 11/18/2020 7:57 PM, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 18 Nov 2020 16:34:02 -0800 (PST), Mark Cleary
wrote:

On Wednesday, November 18, 2020 at 5:13:33 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 18 Nov 2020 08:25:24 -0800 (PST), Mark Cleary
wrote:

On Wednesday, November 18, 2020 at 8:11:47 AM UTC-6, AMuzi wrote:
https://cyclingindustry.news/london-...s-almost-zero/


--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

So people do actually ride a bike without a helmet. I have on occasion seen someone riding and not wearing a helmet. My first thought is they are not serious cyclist and stay away. What little brains I have need all the protection they can get. You are up early Andrew is that your normal style?

Deacon Mark
https://www.researchgate.net/publica...d_injury_rates


https://www.researchgate.net/publica...d_injury_rates

Seems to indicate that, in a number of countries, participation in
cycling decreased and rates increased with the advent of mandatory
helmet laws.
--
Cheers,

John B.
Frank do whatever you want, personally i am going to wear my bike helmet. I have little brains as it is...................
Deacon Mark


Yes, do what you want to do :-) But I wear a helmet for, perhaps, the
most logical reason...

My wife nags me if I don't :-)

My wife never nagged me, but she did request I wear a helmet when I
started bike commuting to a much bigger city center.

Eventually, I learned enough about the issue to decide helmets were
unnecessary at best. I explained to her I'd decided against wearing one
and she was fine with that decision. She no longer wears one herself.


--
- Frank Krygowski