Things to know

On Sunday, December 6, 2020 at 3:26:11 PM UTC-8, Mark J. wrote:
On 12/6/2020 2:17 PM, Mark Cleary wrote:
So if you take a front road wheel and spin it by hand how long does yours spin before stopping? Today I check my front Ultegra bearings and they were fine the 10000 plus miles shows zero wear. I did pull the bearings and re-greased, cleaned them up but of course when you dump the while lithium grease back they look dirty again. Maybe should have used my marine grease but did not.

In any case I spun the wheel afterward by hand the computer has it getting to 9mph and it spins about 45 seconds. I then went over to the other bike that has pretty much a front wheel with 105 hubs and simply spun that one. It manages to spin for a minute. Both smooth but I wonder if that means a damn thing?
Deacon Mark

I doubt the 15sec difference means much. Could be a difference in seal
friction (if either of your hubs has the rubber cone-to-dust cover seals
that used to be popular). Could be a minor difference in how tight you
adjusted the cones. Both sound fine to me. Besides, I doubt we're very
consistent with how hard we spin a wheel.

What might be a finer measure of hub friction: Spin the wheel very
slowly so that the wheel quits "turning over" and starts
spinning/swinging back and forth as the heaviest point (usually either
valve, reflector, or rim join, but not always) seeks bottom. Usually
the wheel stops when the heaviest point is *near* bottom but not *at*
bottom - the heavy point swings past bottom then stops, b/c friction
overcomes the tiny bit that the weight is off-bottom.

Spin a few times and compare the distance of the shortest "swing," and
how close to bottom the heavy point is. Less friction will make the
wheel continue to oscillate with shorter swings. Higher friction will
stop the wheel when the swings are still kinda large. Of course a
better-balanced wheel will confound all this.

PS - just so long as you get *some* oscillation before the wheel stops,
you're probably doing just fine.

With reasonably good components the total loss to rolling resistance in the bottom bracket, wheels and tires is about 15-20 watts. While this might make a difference to a pro in a TT, you or I are very unlikely to even notice that. We generate perhaps 300-400 watts full time power. The human body isn't built to notice 10% losses unless you have been riding well above your FTP for some time and have been forced to slow up. Then while you can tell that you're going slower you simply couldn't tell the source of the drag - whether bicycle or body exhaustion.

On Sunday, December 6, 2020 at 4:03:53 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 12/6/2020 5:45 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/6/2020 6:28 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 12/6/2020 4:17 PM, Mark Cleary wrote:
So if you take a front road wheel and spin it by hand how
long does yours spin before stopping? Today I check my
front Ultegra bearings and they were fine the 10000 plus
miles shows zero wear. I did pull the bearings and
re-greased, cleaned them up but of course when you dump
the while lithium grease back they look dirty again.
Maybe should have used my marine grease but did not.

In any case I spun the wheel afterward by hand the
computer has it getting to 9mph and it spins about 45
seconds. I then went over to the other bike that has
pretty much a front wheel with 105 hubs and simply spun
that one. It manages to spin for a minute. Both smooth
but I wonder if that means a damn thing?
Deacon Mark


No idea.Too many variables.

Heavier rim/tire spins longer (you aren't measuring your
energy input)

Properly adjusted bearing will spin longer than a tight
one. Â A bearing adjusted too slack will spin pretty well
with no load but will wear quickly in normal service.

Before service, your lubricant may be a bit dried and
pushed away from the balls. Fresh lubricant is 'in the
way' and lubricants cover quite a range of viscosities.

I'm curious about "they look dirty again". That may mean
you didn't clean the hubshell or threads on the axle etc.
That sort of problem can lead to really fast wear if the
crud previously pushed to the corners is now running in
your lubricant.

I agree with all of what Andrew said, including cleaning
things thoroughly. When comparing two wheels, the weight of
the rim, tube and tire make a difference, since heavier
flywheels spin longer, other things being equal. I suppose
even different spokes could affect things - although ...

I remember years ago when I was playing with aerodynamics, I
did your test with my bike's stock wheel. Then I replaced
the spokes with bladed spokes and tested again. I'd changed
nothing else in the wheel. I knew that the lesser air
resistance of the spokes would allow it to coast longer, but
I wanted to see how much longer.

Except it didn't. The wheel stopped sooner with the bladed
spokes. Not much sooner, but multiple trials gave consistent
results. I can't say why.

The important thing to remember is, bearing friction is
practically negligible, unless things are really terrible in
there. It's a minuscule portion of the forces holding you
back when you ride. It's kind of like clipping your
fingernails to save weight.

Yes, I'm with you mostly.

As with so may things, sometimes we don't know what it is we
don't know. In my small understanding of aerodynamics for
low speeds (sub-mach = bicycles, autos) the effects change
dramatically sometimes. Aero spokes may well give an
advantage at 30~35mph (race speeds) imperceptible in your
test. I don't know but it's very possible.

Fashionable rear spoilers on autos are mostly geegaws but
can be very useful at 100, 120mph and up. My own Corsa drops
noticeably at just over 85mph when using the front air dam.
A guy driving it below 65mph would never know that.

People that aren't wheel builders don't understand that drag actually increases compared to round spokes unless all of the aero spokes are perfectly aligned and that is seldom the case with amateur wheel builders. You can test this for yourself by twisting a few aero spokes out of alignment. One of the things that those Chinese aero wheel builders do is a remarkable job of perfectly aligning the aero spokes.

Op maandag 7 december 2020 om 18:16:25 UTC+1 schreef :
On Sunday, December 6, 2020 at 3:26:11 PM UTC-8, Mark J. wrote:
On 12/6/2020 2:17 PM, Mark Cleary wrote:
So if you take a front road wheel and spin it by hand how long does yours spin before stopping? Today I check my front Ultegra bearings and they were fine the 10000 plus miles shows zero wear. I did pull the bearings and re-greased, cleaned them up but of course when you dump the while lithium grease back they look dirty again. Maybe should have used my marine grease but did not.

In any case I spun the wheel afterward by hand the computer has it getting to 9mph and it spins about 45 seconds. I then went over to the other bike that has pretty much a front wheel with 105 hubs and simply spun that one. It manages to spin for a minute. Both smooth but I wonder if that means a damn thing?
Deacon Mark

I doubt the 15sec difference means much. Could be a difference in seal
friction (if either of your hubs has the rubber cone-to-dust cover seals
that used to be popular). Could be a minor difference in how tight you
adjusted the cones. Both sound fine to me. Besides, I doubt we're very
consistent with how hard we spin a wheel.

What might be a finer measure of hub friction: Spin the wheel very
slowly so that the wheel quits "turning over" and starts
spinning/swinging back and forth as the heaviest point (usually either
valve, reflector, or rim join, but not always) seeks bottom. Usually
the wheel stops when the heaviest point is *near* bottom but not *at*
bottom - the heavy point swings past bottom then stops, b/c friction
overcomes the tiny bit that the weight is off-bottom.

Spin a few times and compare the distance of the shortest "swing," and
how close to bottom the heavy point is. Less friction will make the
wheel continue to oscillate with shorter swings. Higher friction will
stop the wheel when the swings are still kinda large. Of course a
better-balanced wheel will confound all this.

PS - just so long as you get *some* oscillation before the wheel stops,
you're probably doing just fine.
With reasonably good components the total loss to rolling resistance in the bottom bracket, wheels and tires is about 15-20 watts. While this might make a difference to a pro in a TT, you or I are very unlikely to even notice that. We generate perhaps 300-400 watts full time power. The human body isn't built to notice 10% losses unless you have been riding well above your FTP for some time and have been forced to slow up. Then while you can tell that you're going slower you simply couldn't tell the source of the drag - whether bicycle or body exhaustion.

Make that around 150-200 W full time power. 300-400 W full time power is Pro level, and even they can't sustain that for 5-6 hours. Really you do notice 15-20 Watt loss.

Lou

On Monday, December 7, 2020 at 11:21:40 AM UTC-6, wrote:
Op maandag 7 december 2020 om 18:16:25 UTC+1 schreef :
On Sunday, December 6, 2020 at 3:26:11 PM UTC-8, Mark J. wrote:
On 12/6/2020 2:17 PM, Mark Cleary wrote:
So if you take a front road wheel and spin it by hand how long does yours spin before stopping? Today I check my front Ultegra bearings and they were fine the 10000 plus miles shows zero wear. I did pull the bearings and re-greased, cleaned them up but of course when you dump the while lithium grease back they look dirty again. Maybe should have used my marine grease but did not.

In any case I spun the wheel afterward by hand the computer has it getting to 9mph and it spins about 45 seconds. I then went over to the other bike that has pretty much a front wheel with 105 hubs and simply spun that one. It manages to spin for a minute. Both smooth but I wonder if that means a damn thing?
Deacon Mark

I doubt the 15sec difference means much. Could be a difference in seal
friction (if either of your hubs has the rubber cone-to-dust cover seals
that used to be popular). Could be a minor difference in how tight you
adjusted the cones. Both sound fine to me. Besides, I doubt we're very
consistent with how hard we spin a wheel.

What might be a finer measure of hub friction: Spin the wheel very
slowly so that the wheel quits "turning over" and starts
spinning/swinging back and forth as the heaviest point (usually either
valve, reflector, or rim join, but not always) seeks bottom. Usually
the wheel stops when the heaviest point is *near* bottom but not *at*
bottom - the heavy point swings past bottom then stops, b/c friction
overcomes the tiny bit that the weight is off-bottom.

Spin a few times and compare the distance of the shortest "swing," and
how close to bottom the heavy point is. Less friction will make the
wheel continue to oscillate with shorter swings. Higher friction will
stop the wheel when the swings are still kinda large. Of course a
better-balanced wheel will confound all this.

PS - just so long as you get *some* oscillation before the wheel stops,
you're probably doing just fine.
With reasonably good components the total loss to rolling resistance in the bottom bracket, wheels and tires is about 15-20 watts. While this might make a difference to a pro in a TT, you or I are very unlikely to even notice that. We generate perhaps 300-400 watts full time power. The human body isn't built to notice 10% losses unless you have been riding well above your FTP for some time and have been forced to slow up. Then while you can tell that you're going slower you simply couldn't tell the source of the drag - whether bicycle or body exhaustion.
Make that around 150-200 W full time power. 300-400 W full time power is Pro level, and even they can't sustain that for 5-6 hours. Really you do notice 15-20 Watt loss.

Lou


I notice the greaser Shimano uses seems to be lighter than the stuff I had. It was almost clear and looked clean for sure. Then wiping the grease off and cleaning the races and ball bearings everything looks nice and shiny. Repacking the bearings then it looks like a bunch of balls in mash potatoes. I notice when spinning the wheel by hand is simply comes to a rest and does not oscillate and start going the other direction. I do have the computer magnet still on spoke so not weighted even. To set the pre load not much as you just push the cone back on and the cone holding tube. Then tighten at end with 5mm allen wrench but it is a set amount already in advance.
Deacon mark

On Monday, December 7, 2020 at 10:08:40 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Monday, December 7, 2020 at 11:21:40 AM UTC-6, wrote:
Op maandag 7 december 2020 om 18:16:25 UTC+1 schreef :
On Sunday, December 6, 2020 at 3:26:11 PM UTC-8, Mark J. wrote:
On 12/6/2020 2:17 PM, Mark Cleary wrote:
So if you take a front road wheel and spin it by hand how long does yours spin before stopping? Today I check my front Ultegra bearings and they were fine the 10000 plus miles shows zero wear. I did pull the bearings and re-greased, cleaned them up but of course when you dump the while lithium grease back they look dirty again. Maybe should have used my marine grease but did not.

In any case I spun the wheel afterward by hand the computer has it getting to 9mph and it spins about 45 seconds. I then went over to the other bike that has pretty much a front wheel with 105 hubs and simply spun that one. It manages to spin for a minute. Both smooth but I wonder if that means a damn thing?
Deacon Mark

I doubt the 15sec difference means much. Could be a difference in seal
friction (if either of your hubs has the rubber cone-to-dust cover seals
that used to be popular). Could be a minor difference in how tight you
adjusted the cones. Both sound fine to me. Besides, I doubt we're very
consistent with how hard we spin a wheel.

What might be a finer measure of hub friction: Spin the wheel very
slowly so that the wheel quits "turning over" and starts
spinning/swinging back and forth as the heaviest point (usually either
valve, reflector, or rim join, but not always) seeks bottom. Usually
the wheel stops when the heaviest point is *near* bottom but not *at*
bottom - the heavy point swings past bottom then stops, b/c friction
overcomes the tiny bit that the weight is off-bottom.

Spin a few times and compare the distance of the shortest "swing," and
how close to bottom the heavy point is. Less friction will make the
wheel continue to oscillate with shorter swings. Higher friction will
stop the wheel when the swings are still kinda large. Of course a
better-balanced wheel will confound all this.

PS - just so long as you get *some* oscillation before the wheel stops,
you're probably doing just fine.
With reasonably good components the total loss to rolling resistance in the bottom bracket, wheels and tires is about 15-20 watts. While this might make a difference to a pro in a TT, you or I are very unlikely to even notice that. We generate perhaps 300-400 watts full time power. The human body isn't built to notice 10% losses unless you have been riding well above your FTP for some time and have been forced to slow up. Then while you can tell that you're going slower you simply couldn't tell the source of the drag - whether bicycle or body exhaustion.
Make that around 150-200 W full time power. 300-400 W full time power is Pro level, and even they can't sustain that for 5-6 hours. Really you do notice 15-20 Watt loss.

Lou
I notice the greaser Shimano uses seems to be lighter than the stuff I had. It was almost clear and looked clean for sure. Then wiping the grease off and cleaning the races and ball bearings everything looks nice and shiny. Repacking the bearings then it looks like a bunch of balls in mash potatoes. I notice when spinning the wheel by hand is simply comes to a rest and does not oscillate and start going the other direction. I do have the computer magnet still on spoke so not weighted even. To set the pre load not much as you just push the cone back on and the cone holding tube. Then tighten at end with 5mm allen wrench but it is a set amount already in advance.
Deacon mark

Maybe you need Dura Ace grease. https://tinyurl.com/y5udu5jz 105 grease is much slower. Sora grease is made out of tubular cement and should be avoided.

Fun diversion. Back in the '70s, I was riding in this shop ride crypto-race, and one of the guys (who was struggling) looked over at me and said "I think I got Tubasti in my hubs." Make sure you do not have Tubasti in your hubs -- even if you put it in six zip-lock bags and lock it in a vault, it will find its way out. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TdUs...RetroAlexander

-- Jay Beattie.

On Monday, December 7, 2020 at 12:49:52 PM UTC-6, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, December 7, 2020 at 10:08:40 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Monday, December 7, 2020 at 11:21:40 AM UTC-6, wrote:
Op maandag 7 december 2020 om 18:16:25 UTC+1 schreef :
On Sunday, December 6, 2020 at 3:26:11 PM UTC-8, Mark J. wrote:
On 12/6/2020 2:17 PM, Mark Cleary wrote:
So if you take a front road wheel and spin it by hand how long does yours spin before stopping? Today I check my front Ultegra bearings and they were fine the 10000 plus miles shows zero wear. I did pull the bearings and re-greased, cleaned them up but of course when you dump the while lithium grease back they look dirty again. Maybe should have used my marine grease but did not.

In any case I spun the wheel afterward by hand the computer has it getting to 9mph and it spins about 45 seconds. I then went over to the other bike that has pretty much a front wheel with 105 hubs and simply spun that one. It manages to spin for a minute. Both smooth but I wonder if that means a damn thing?
Deacon Mark

I doubt the 15sec difference means much. Could be a difference in seal
friction (if either of your hubs has the rubber cone-to-dust cover seals
that used to be popular). Could be a minor difference in how tight you
adjusted the cones. Both sound fine to me. Besides, I doubt we're very
consistent with how hard we spin a wheel.

What might be a finer measure of hub friction: Spin the wheel very
slowly so that the wheel quits "turning over" and starts
spinning/swinging back and forth as the heaviest point (usually either
valve, reflector, or rim join, but not always) seeks bottom. Usually
the wheel stops when the heaviest point is *near* bottom but not *at*
bottom - the heavy point swings past bottom then stops, b/c friction
overcomes the tiny bit that the weight is off-bottom.

Spin a few times and compare the distance of the shortest "swing," and
how close to bottom the heavy point is. Less friction will make the
wheel continue to oscillate with shorter swings. Higher friction will
stop the wheel when the swings are still kinda large. Of course a
better-balanced wheel will confound all this.

PS - just so long as you get *some* oscillation before the wheel stops,
you're probably doing just fine.
With reasonably good components the total loss to rolling resistance in the bottom bracket, wheels and tires is about 15-20 watts. While this might make a difference to a pro in a TT, you or I are very unlikely to even notice that. We generate perhaps 300-400 watts full time power. The human body isn't built to notice 10% losses unless you have been riding well above your FTP for some time and have been forced to slow up. Then while you can tell that you're going slower you simply couldn't tell the source of the drag - whether bicycle or body exhaustion.
Make that around 150-200 W full time power. 300-400 W full time power is Pro level, and even they can't sustain that for 5-6 hours. Really you do notice 15-20 Watt loss.

Lou
I notice the greaser Shimano uses seems to be lighter than the stuff I had. It was almost clear and looked clean for sure. Then wiping the grease off and cleaning the races and ball bearings everything looks nice and shiny. Repacking the bearings then it looks like a bunch of balls in mash potatoes. I notice when spinning the wheel by hand is simply comes to a rest and does not oscillate and start going the other direction. I do have the computer magnet still on spoke so not weighted even. To set the pre load not much as you just push the cone back on and the cone holding tube. Then tighten at end with 5mm allen wrench but it is a set amount already in advance.
Deacon mark
Maybe you need Dura Ace grease. https://tinyurl.com/y5udu5jz 105 grease is much slower. Sora grease is made out of tubular cement and should be avoided.

Fun diversion. Back in the '70s, I was riding in this shop ride crypto-race, and one of the guys (who was struggling) looked over at me and said "I think I got Tubasti in my hubs." Make sure you do not have Tubasti in your hubs -- even if you put it in six zip-lock bags and lock it in a vault, it will find its way out. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TdUs...RetroAlexander

-- Jay Beattie.

Would it be better to have Vittoria Mastik or Continental rim cement instead of Tubasti? I did a Google search on tubular glue and was shocked (SHOCKED!!!!) to see so many companies making tubular glue. Vittoria, Continental, Tubasti(Velox), Vredestein, Specialized, Hutchinson, Panaracer, Schwalbe, Zefal, Challenge(Clement). Who would have thought there needs to be that many companies making tubular glue. I can count on one hand the total number of people I've met in my bicycle riding life who use tubulars.

On Monday, December 7, 2020 at 8:00:34 PM UTC-8, wrote:
On Monday, December 7, 2020 at 12:49:52 PM UTC-6, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, December 7, 2020 at 10:08:40 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Monday, December 7, 2020 at 11:21:40 AM UTC-6, wrote:
Op maandag 7 december 2020 om 18:16:25 UTC+1 schreef :
On Sunday, December 6, 2020 at 3:26:11 PM UTC-8, Mark J. wrote:
On 12/6/2020 2:17 PM, Mark Cleary wrote:
So if you take a front road wheel and spin it by hand how long does yours spin before stopping? Today I check my front Ultegra bearings and they were fine the 10000 plus miles shows zero wear. I did pull the bearings and re-greased, cleaned them up but of course when you dump the while lithium grease back they look dirty again. Maybe should have used my marine grease but did not.

In any case I spun the wheel afterward by hand the computer has it getting to 9mph and it spins about 45 seconds. I then went over to the other bike that has pretty much a front wheel with 105 hubs and simply spun that one. It manages to spin for a minute. Both smooth but I wonder if that means a damn thing?
Deacon Mark

I doubt the 15sec difference means much. Could be a difference in seal
friction (if either of your hubs has the rubber cone-to-dust cover seals
that used to be popular). Could be a minor difference in how tight you
adjusted the cones. Both sound fine to me. Besides, I doubt we're very
consistent with how hard we spin a wheel.

What might be a finer measure of hub friction: Spin the wheel very
slowly so that the wheel quits "turning over" and starts
spinning/swinging back and forth as the heaviest point (usually either
valve, reflector, or rim join, but not always) seeks bottom. Usually
the wheel stops when the heaviest point is *near* bottom but not *at*
bottom - the heavy point swings past bottom then stops, b/c friction
overcomes the tiny bit that the weight is off-bottom.

Spin a few times and compare the distance of the shortest "swing," and
how close to bottom the heavy point is. Less friction will make the
wheel continue to oscillate with shorter swings. Higher friction will
stop the wheel when the swings are still kinda large. Of course a
better-balanced wheel will confound all this.

PS - just so long as you get *some* oscillation before the wheel stops,
you're probably doing just fine.
With reasonably good components the total loss to rolling resistance in the bottom bracket, wheels and tires is about 15-20 watts. While this might make a difference to a pro in a TT, you or I are very unlikely to even notice that. We generate perhaps 300-400 watts full time power. The human body isn't built to notice 10% losses unless you have been riding well above your FTP for some time and have been forced to slow up. Then while you can tell that you're going slower you simply couldn't tell the source of the drag - whether bicycle or body exhaustion.
Make that around 150-200 W full time power. 300-400 W full time power is Pro level, and even they can't sustain that for 5-6 hours. Really you do notice 15-20 Watt loss.

Lou
I notice the greaser Shimano uses seems to be lighter than the stuff I had. It was almost clear and looked clean for sure. Then wiping the grease off and cleaning the races and ball bearings everything looks nice and shiny. Repacking the bearings then it looks like a bunch of balls in mash potatoes. I notice when spinning the wheel by hand is simply comes to a rest and does not oscillate and start going the other direction. I do have the computer magnet still on spoke so not weighted even. To set the pre load not much as you just push the cone back on and the cone holding tube. Then tighten at end with 5mm allen wrench but it is a set amount already in advance.
Deacon mark
Maybe you need Dura Ace grease. https://tinyurl.com/y5udu5jz 105 grease is much slower. Sora grease is made out of tubular cement and should be avoided.

Fun diversion. Back in the '70s, I was riding in this shop ride crypto-race, and one of the guys (who was struggling) looked over at me and said "I think I got Tubasti in my hubs." Make sure you do not have Tubasti in your hubs -- even if you put it in six zip-lock bags and lock it in a vault, it will find its way out. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TdUs...RetroAlexander

-- Jay Beattie.
Would it be better to have Vittoria Mastik or Continental rim cement instead of Tubasti? I did a Google search on tubular glue and was shocked (SHOCKED!!!!) to see so many companies making tubular glue. Vittoria, Continental, Tubasti(Velox), Vredestein, Specialized, Hutchinson, Panaracer, Schwalbe, Zefal, Challenge(Clement). Who would have thought there needs to be that many companies making tubular glue. I can count on one hand the total number of people I've met in my bicycle riding life who use tubulars.

I dumped them all and was using 3M Fast Tack, but that got reformulated and then dropped from the line, but by then, I had stopped riding tubulars. I still have a gob of old red Clement (?) cement on the bottom of this little tool box I've had since the early '70s. I think all tubular cement had a tendency to wander. It's like tooth paste. That stuff wanders, too.

-- Jay Beattie.

On 12/7/2020 10:00 PM, wrote:
On Monday, December 7, 2020 at 12:49:52 PM UTC-6, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, December 7, 2020 at 10:08:40 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Monday, December 7, 2020 at 11:21:40 AM UTC-6, wrote:
Op maandag 7 december 2020 om 18:16:25 UTC+1 schreef :
On Sunday, December 6, 2020 at 3:26:11 PM UTC-8, Mark J. wrote:
On 12/6/2020 2:17 PM, Mark Cleary wrote:
So if you take a front road wheel and spin it by hand how long does yours spin before stopping? Today I check my front Ultegra bearings and they were fine the 10000 plus miles shows zero wear. I did pull the bearings and re-greased, cleaned them up but of course when you dump the while lithium grease back they look dirty again. Maybe should have used my marine grease but did not.

In any case I spun the wheel afterward by hand the computer has it getting to 9mph and it spins about 45 seconds. I then went over to the other bike that has pretty much a front wheel with 105 hubs and simply spun that one. It manages to spin for a minute. Both smooth but I wonder if that means a damn thing?
Deacon Mark

I doubt the 15sec difference means much. Could be a difference in seal
friction (if either of your hubs has the rubber cone-to-dust cover seals
that used to be popular). Could be a minor difference in how tight you
adjusted the cones. Both sound fine to me. Besides, I doubt we're very
consistent with how hard we spin a wheel.

What might be a finer measure of hub friction: Spin the wheel very
slowly so that the wheel quits "turning over" and starts
spinning/swinging back and forth as the heaviest point (usually either
valve, reflector, or rim join, but not always) seeks bottom. Usually
the wheel stops when the heaviest point is *near* bottom but not *at*
bottom - the heavy point swings past bottom then stops, b/c friction
overcomes the tiny bit that the weight is off-bottom.

Spin a few times and compare the distance of the shortest "swing," and
how close to bottom the heavy point is. Less friction will make the
wheel continue to oscillate with shorter swings. Higher friction will
stop the wheel when the swings are still kinda large. Of course a
better-balanced wheel will confound all this.

PS - just so long as you get *some* oscillation before the wheel stops,
you're probably doing just fine.
With reasonably good components the total loss to rolling resistance in the bottom bracket, wheels and tires is about 15-20 watts. While this might make a difference to a pro in a TT, you or I are very unlikely to even notice that. We generate perhaps 300-400 watts full time power. The human body isn't built to notice 10% losses unless you have been riding well above your FTP for some time and have been forced to slow up. Then while you can tell that you're going slower you simply couldn't tell the source of the drag - whether bicycle or body exhaustion.
Make that around 150-200 W full time power. 300-400 W full time power is Pro level, and even they can't sustain that for 5-6 hours. Really you do notice 15-20 Watt loss.

Lou
I notice the greaser Shimano uses seems to be lighter than the stuff I had. It was almost clear and looked clean for sure. Then wiping the grease off and cleaning the races and ball bearings everything looks nice and shiny. Repacking the bearings then it looks like a bunch of balls in mash potatoes. I notice when spinning the wheel by hand is simply comes to a rest and does not oscillate and start going the other direction. I do have the computer magnet still on spoke so not weighted even. To set the pre load not much as you just push the cone back on and the cone holding tube. Then tighten at end with 5mm allen wrench but it is a set amount already in advance.
Deacon mark
Maybe you need Dura Ace grease. https://tinyurl.com/y5udu5jz 105 grease is much slower. Sora grease is made out of tubular cement and should be avoided.

Fun diversion. Back in the '70s, I was riding in this shop ride crypto-race, and one of the guys (who was struggling) looked over at me and said "I think I got Tubasti in my hubs." Make sure you do not have Tubasti in your hubs -- even if you put it in six zip-lock bags and lock it in a vault, it will find its way out. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TdUs...RetroAlexander

-- Jay Beattie.

Would it be better to have Vittoria Mastik or Continental rim cement instead of Tubasti? I did a Google search on tubular glue and was shocked (SHOCKED!!!!) to see so many companies making tubular glue. Vittoria, Continental, Tubasti(Velox), Vredestein, Specialized, Hutchinson, Panaracer, Schwalbe, Zefal, Challenge(Clement). Who would have thought there needs to be that many companies making tubular glue. I can count on one hand the total number of people I've met in my bicycle riding life who use tubulars.


Al the current products are OK (no more Bikit and other
dreck). People like what they like but there are not
dysfunctional tubular cements now.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Tuesday, December 8, 2020 at 7:58:13 AM UTC-6, AMuzi wrote:
On 12/7/2020 10:00 PM, wrote:
On Monday, December 7, 2020 at 12:49:52 PM UTC-6, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, December 7, 2020 at 10:08:40 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Monday, December 7, 2020 at 11:21:40 AM UTC-6, wrote:
Op maandag 7 december 2020 om 18:16:25 UTC+1 schreef :
On Sunday, December 6, 2020 at 3:26:11 PM UTC-8, Mark J. wrote:
On 12/6/2020 2:17 PM, Mark Cleary wrote:
So if you take a front road wheel and spin it by hand how long does yours spin before stopping? Today I check my front Ultegra bearings and they were fine the 10000 plus miles shows zero wear. I did pull the bearings and re-greased, cleaned them up but of course when you dump the while lithium grease back they look dirty again. Maybe should have used my marine grease but did not.

In any case I spun the wheel afterward by hand the computer has it getting to 9mph and it spins about 45 seconds. I then went over to the other bike that has pretty much a front wheel with 105 hubs and simply spun that one. It manages to spin for a minute. Both smooth but I wonder if that means a damn thing?
Deacon Mark

I doubt the 15sec difference means much. Could be a difference in seal
friction (if either of your hubs has the rubber cone-to-dust cover seals
that used to be popular). Could be a minor difference in how tight you
adjusted the cones. Both sound fine to me. Besides, I doubt we're very
consistent with how hard we spin a wheel.

What might be a finer measure of hub friction: Spin the wheel very
slowly so that the wheel quits "turning over" and starts
spinning/swinging back and forth as the heaviest point (usually either
valve, reflector, or rim join, but not always) seeks bottom. Usually
the wheel stops when the heaviest point is *near* bottom but not *at*
bottom - the heavy point swings past bottom then stops, b/c friction
overcomes the tiny bit that the weight is off-bottom.

Spin a few times and compare the distance of the shortest "swing," and
how close to bottom the heavy point is. Less friction will make the
wheel continue to oscillate with shorter swings. Higher friction will
stop the wheel when the swings are still kinda large. Of course a
better-balanced wheel will confound all this.

PS - just so long as you get *some* oscillation before the wheel stops,
you're probably doing just fine.
With reasonably good components the total loss to rolling resistance in the bottom bracket, wheels and tires is about 15-20 watts. While this might make a difference to a pro in a TT, you or I are very unlikely to even notice that. We generate perhaps 300-400 watts full time power. The human body isn't built to notice 10% losses unless you have been riding well above your FTP for some time and have been forced to slow up. Then while you can tell that you're going slower you simply couldn't tell the source of the drag - whether bicycle or body exhaustion.
Make that around 150-200 W full time power. 300-400 W full time power is Pro level, and even they can't sustain that for 5-6 hours. Really you do notice 15-20 Watt loss.

Lou
I notice the greaser Shimano uses seems to be lighter than the stuff I had. It was almost clear and looked clean for sure. Then wiping the grease off and cleaning the races and ball bearings everything looks nice and shiny. Repacking the bearings then it looks like a bunch of balls in mash potatoes. I notice when spinning the wheel by hand is simply comes to a rest and does not oscillate and start going the other direction. I do have the computer magnet still on spoke so not weighted even. To set the pre load not much as you just push the cone back on and the cone holding tube. Then tighten at end with 5mm allen wrench but it is a set amount already in advance.
Deacon mark
Maybe you need Dura Ace grease. https://tinyurl.com/y5udu5jz 105 grease is much slower. Sora grease is made out of tubular cement and should be avoided.

Fun diversion. Back in the '70s, I was riding in this shop ride crypto-race, and one of the guys (who was struggling) looked over at me and said "I think I got Tubasti in my hubs." Make sure you do not have Tubasti in your hubs -- even if you put it in six zip-lock bags and lock it in a vault, it will find its way out. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TdUs...RetroAlexander

-- Jay Beattie.

Would it be better to have Vittoria Mastik or Continental rim cement instead of Tubasti? I did a Google search on tubular glue and was shocked (SHOCKED!!!!) to see so many companies making tubular glue. Vittoria, Continental, Tubasti(Velox), Vredestein, Specialized, Hutchinson, Panaracer, Schwalbe, Zefal, Challenge(Clement). Who would have thought there needs to be that many companies making tubular glue. I can count on one hand the total number of people I've met in my bicycle riding life who use tubulars.

Al the current products are OK (no more Bikit and other
dreck). People like what they like but there are not
dysfunctional tubular cements now.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

So after my ride today a 55 miler I check the wheel and it spins again about 35-45 seconds from a hand push at 9 mph showing. I decided to pull the axel and just check things out. Nothing wrong but this time I was a bit more careful with the preload. I snugged the cone up checking the play all the way. Then when I get to where there is no play but still just easy finger tight, I could still give it some a tad more tightening. I decide that is what I must have been doing so I made the adjustment again and this time when I got the to no play in the hub but finger tight-easy, I stopped.

I then put the hub all back together and still no play spins nice. I mounted the tire on the bike and gave it a spin. This time at 8-9 mph the wheel spins almost 2 minutes to stopping. So this this sound better or did I really not do anything really that much. It is interesting in the the hub still gets the pressure from the skewer being clapped tight, but spins at least twice as far. I wonder if they would let me be a mechanic somewhere in crazy land.
Deacon Mark

Mark Cleary wrote:

On 12/6/2020 2:17 PM, Mark Cleary wrote:
So if you take a front road wheel and spin it by hand how
long does yours spin before stopping? Today I check my
front Ultegra bearings and they were fine the 10000 plus
miles shows zero wear. I did pull the bearings and
re-greased, cleaned them up but of course when you dump
the while lithium grease back they look dirty again.
Maybe should have used my marine grease but did not.

In any case I spun the wheel afterward by hand the
computer has it getting to 9mph and it spins about 45
seconds. I then went over to the other bike that has
pretty much a front wheel with 105 hubs and simply spun
that one. It manages to spin for a minute. Both smooth
but I wonder if that means a damn thing? Deacon Mark

So after my ride today a 55 miler I check the wheel and it spins again
about 35-45 seconds from a hand push at 9 mph showing. I decided to pull
the axel and just check things out. Nothing wrong but this time I was a
bit more careful with the preload. I snugged the cone up checking the
play all the way. Then when I get to where there is no play but still
just easy finger tight, I could still give it some a tad more tightening.
I decide that is what I must have been doing so I made the adjustment
again and this time when I got the to no play in the hub but finger
tight-easy, I stopped.

I then put the hub all back together and still no play spins nice. I
mounted the tire on the bike and gave it a spin. This time at 8-9 mph the
wheel spins almost 2 minutes to stopping. So this this sound better or
did I really not do anything really that much. It is interesting in the
the hub still gets the pressure from the skewer being clapped tight, but
spins at least twice as far. I wonder if they would let me be a mechanic
somewhere in crazy land. Deacon Mark

45 seconds, 35 seconds, 120 seconds ... high time you get a dynamo hub and
stop worrying about unloaded Axel. The benefits? No, not the lighting.
But in the event of any uncontrolled wobbling and fishing downhill dances,
you will be in the comfortable position to find fault with the magnetic
poles' micro-notchiness as Jay should have done -- instead of blaming his
brazenly non-identical pair of summer toy tires that obviously must have
been pre-damaged from all that tear gas, inner-city blazes and mostly
peaceful forest arsons.