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  #131  
Old January 17th 17, 03:50 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,016
Default Stronger rubber cement?

On 2017-01-16 19:28, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, January 16, 2017 at 4:23:53 PM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-16 13:39, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, January 16, 2017 at 2:39:18 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, January 16, 2017 at 11:03:05 AM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-16 10:43, David Scheidt wrote:
Joerg wrote:

:Yup. Standard bicycle tubes are usually junk. Would you accept
it if you :had to pump up the tires of your car every two
weeks? Yet most cyclists :think this is "normal".

Automotive tires have a much lower ratio of surface area to
volume than bike tires. They're also run a lower pressure, for
the most part.


Truck tires are often operated around 50psi or higher. Like my
MTB tires are.

A truck tire weights as a much as TWO UCI minimum race bikes -- or
one DH bike. Now throw in the rim. You have peculiar expectations
for bicycles. You're theoretically perfect bike would weigh about
250lbs.

-- Jay Beattie.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. What Joerg's wants in a
bicycle are would be met by a 250cc dirt-motorcycle converted to
pedal power and the engine removed.

I find it astounding that so many others who ride in very harsh
conditions do NOT have the breakages or other problems that Joerg
does.


According to several bicycle shop owners they do. Many said that two
factors allowed them to survive as a business:

1. Mountain bikers breaking stuff all the time.

2. Department store bike buyers who needed help and found that the store
that sold their bikes was less than helpful.


Unlike cars, which never need to be fixed, and that's why there are no auto repair shops. http://tinyurl.com/jba5fgb


Care to compare the number of vehicles plus the miles traveled? Maybe
then it becomes more clear. Cars are way more reliable than bicycles.
Especially if you buy top quality cars like we did. Other than regular
scheduled maintenance there were no breakdowns in the whole two decades
we own them. None, as in zero. Not even one flat tire. Try that with a
bicycle.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
Ads
  #132  
Old January 17th 17, 03:52 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,447
Default Stronger rubber cement?

On 1/16/2017 7:30 PM, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 16:23:53 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-01-16 13:39, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, January 16, 2017 at 2:39:18 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, January 16, 2017 at 11:03:05 AM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-16 10:43, David Scheidt wrote:
Joerg wrote:

:Yup. Standard bicycle tubes are usually junk. Would you accept
it if you :had to pump up the tires of your car every two
weeks? Yet most cyclists :think this is "normal".

Automotive tires have a much lower ratio of surface area to
volume than bike tires. They're also run a lower pressure, for
the most part.


Truck tires are often operated around 50psi or higher. Like my
MTB tires are.

A truck tire weights as a much as TWO UCI minimum race bikes -- or
one DH bike. Now throw in the rim. You have peculiar expectations
for bicycles. You're theoretically perfect bike would weigh about
250lbs.

-- Jay Beattie.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. What Joerg's wants in a
bicycle are would be met by a 250cc dirt-motorcycle converted to
pedal power and the engine removed.

I find it astounding that so many others who ride in very harsh
conditions do NOT have the breakages or other problems that Joerg
does.


According to several bicycle shop owners they do. Many said that two
factors allowed them to survive as a business:

1. Mountain bikers breaking stuff all the time.

2. Department store bike buyers who needed help and found that the store
that sold their bikes was less than helpful.


Strange. My LBS is a chain of two large shops in Bangkok, and a large
number of agents scattered all over the country, and is the largest
bicycle business in Thailand. They sell predominantly road bikes and
the sales manager tells me that a very large portion of the bikes that
they sell are Carbon. In fact she said that it was much easier to sell
a carbon bike than an aluminum bike.

Do you live in some poor, improvised, area where people can't afford
decent equipment :-?

I wonder whether Andrew's business depends on broken mountain bikes
and cheap walmart stuff?


We don't depend on it. But we've outlived a great number of
other shops in part because we are not snobs and are as
helpful as patience permits with the usual crap. The owners
of the usual crap are just as human as anyone else and
respond well to a kind word.

I'm thinking here of a particular customer. He bought a
stereo system which included a 'free' bike. Two other shops
gave him an earful and threw him out. Our employee adjusted
the seat and bars, made the brakes functional and improved
it from a death trap to a lousy bicycle in a few minutes'
time. He became a regular customer for many years with new
very nice bikes eventually.

Quick frame repair during a party while wearing a hula skirt:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfr...t/hulaweld.jpg

Owner needed it ASAP to go to work.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #133  
Old January 17th 17, 03:54 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,447
Default Stronger rubber cement?

On 1/16/2017 10:10 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, January 16, 2017 at 10:28:41 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, January 16, 2017 at 4:23:53 PM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-16 13:39, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, January 16, 2017 at 2:39:18 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, January 16, 2017 at 11:03:05 AM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-16 10:43, David Scheidt wrote:
Joerg wrote:

:Yup. Standard bicycle tubes are usually junk. Would you accept
it if you :had to pump up the tires of your car every two
weeks? Yet most cyclists :think this is "normal".

Automotive tires have a much lower ratio of surface area to
volume than bike tires. They're also run a lower pressure, for
the most part.


Truck tires are often operated around 50psi or higher. Like my
MTB tires are.

A truck tire weights as a much as TWO UCI minimum race bikes -- or
one DH bike. Now throw in the rim. You have peculiar expectations
for bicycles. You're theoretically perfect bike would weigh about
250lbs.

-- Jay Beattie.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. What Joerg's wants in a
bicycle are would be met by a 250cc dirt-motorcycle converted to
pedal power and the engine removed.

I find it astounding that so many others who ride in very harsh
conditions do NOT have the breakages or other problems that Joerg
does.


According to several bicycle shop owners they do. Many said that two
factors allowed them to survive as a business:

1. Mountain bikers breaking stuff all the time.

2. Department store bike buyers who needed help and found that the store
that sold their bikes was less than helpful.


Unlike cars, which never need to be fixed, and that's why there are no auto repair shops. http://tinyurl.com/jba5fgb

-- Jay Beattie.


Read Joerg's post from over the years and you'll see that Joerg takes great delight in complaining. Joerg does not want/need a bicycle - he needs/wants a pedal powered motorcycle.

For his bicycle he should just buy solid rubber tires and be done with every needing to fix a flat or pump them up.

Cheers


search keyword is 'tweel'.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #134  
Old January 17th 17, 03:55 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,016
Default Stronger rubber cement?

On 2017-01-16 17:18, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 11:03:04 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-01-16 10:43, David Scheidt wrote:
Joerg wrote:

:Yup. Standard bicycle tubes are usually junk. Would you accept it if you
:had to pump up the tires of your car every two weeks? Yet most cyclists
:think this is "normal".

Automotive tires have a much lower ratio of surface area to volume
than bike tires. They're also run a lower pressure, for the most
part.



Truck tires are often operated around 50psi or higher. Like my MTB tires
are.


Have you ever tried to pick up a
truck tire"?


Yes.


A typical 45" truck tire, say a B.F. Goodrich 445/65R-22.5, weighs,
according to the manufacturer some 215 lbs. Standard operating
pressure is in the neighborhood of 120 psi.

Comparing bicycle tires with tires for other vehicles is, to say the
least, a bit silly.

Unless, of course you plan on a 600 lb. bicycle :-)


I meant for pickup trucks. You can get regular tires with a limited
pressure range or slightly more expensive commercial grade ones for much
higher pressure. They make a lot of sense if the truck is going to
operated under a lot of load or on rough turf. A neighbor had them on
his Dodge Dakota and IIRC they were rated at 75psi max. The Dakota is
not even a large pickup truck, more the size of a compact car.

[...]

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #135  
Old January 17th 17, 04:04 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,016
Default Stronger rubber cement?

On 2017-01-16 21:51, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 23:05:43 -0000 (UTC), Duane
wrote:

The idea of two pounds worth of tubes to avoid putting air in my tires
doesn't parse at all.


Let's do it by the numbers.

The tubes I usually buy are these:
http://www.nashbar.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_10053_10052_175629_-1___205038
26x1.5" for $4.79ea. They weigh 176g (0.39 lbs) and they leak air.

The proposed leak proof tubes:
https://www.amazon.com/Sunlite-Thorn-Resistant-Presta-Valve/dp/B0063R2GJW/
26x1.5" for $15.36ea. These weigh 572g (1.26 lbs).

For two tires, that a difference of:
2 * (1.26 - 0.39) = 1.74 lbs (789g)
Not quite 2 lbs but close enough.

The average 26x1.5" tire

seems to weigh about 550g (1.2 lbs). Ignoring the weight of the
wheel, with these tubes the rotating weight will increase by:
1.74 / (2 * (1.2 + 0.39)) = 55%

Offhand, it seems a bit too heavy to be worthwhile.

Please note that my original problem was not to find the best thorn
proof tire, but rather one that doesn't leak out of the box. I don't
seem to experience any sudden releases of air, but instead get slow
leaks. On the wheels in question, I ride on pavement.


You won't see slow leakage anymore after switching to the thick tubes. I
believe you do not live in hilly terrain but in the Bay Area and there
the increased weight won't matter much. The increased rotating mass
might but only if you have lots of stop and go traffic, with a lot of
braking.

As for me, I'll never buy a thin tube again no matter where I ride and
currently I live in a very hilly region.

The only downside is if a tube does go because a tire side wall failed
it is an expensive affair because that generally can't be patched. It's
also a rather loud scenario. The advantage on the road bike: I managed
to ride home sans air because the tube already looks almost inflated
without air. It and the tire were shot anyhow so it was ok (at reduced
speed). Doesn't work on the MTB though, I had to walk it all the way
home but the tire was so shredded anyhow that chunks flopped around.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #136  
Old January 17th 17, 04:09 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Duane[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,900
Default Stronger rubber cement?

On 17/01/2017 10:50 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-16 19:28, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, January 16, 2017 at 4:23:53 PM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-16 13:39, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, January 16, 2017 at 2:39:18 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, January 16, 2017 at 11:03:05 AM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-16 10:43, David Scheidt wrote:
Joerg wrote:

:Yup. Standard bicycle tubes are usually junk. Would you accept
it if you :had to pump up the tires of your car every two
weeks? Yet most cyclists :think this is "normal".

Automotive tires have a much lower ratio of surface area to
volume than bike tires. They're also run a lower pressure, for
the most part.


Truck tires are often operated around 50psi or higher. Like my
MTB tires are.

A truck tire weights as a much as TWO UCI minimum race bikes -- or
one DH bike. Now throw in the rim. You have peculiar expectations
for bicycles. You're theoretically perfect bike would weigh about
250lbs.

-- Jay Beattie.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. What Joerg's wants in a
bicycle are would be met by a 250cc dirt-motorcycle converted to
pedal power and the engine removed.

I find it astounding that so many others who ride in very harsh
conditions do NOT have the breakages or other problems that Joerg
does.


According to several bicycle shop owners they do. Many said that two
factors allowed them to survive as a business:

1. Mountain bikers breaking stuff all the time.

2. Department store bike buyers who needed help and found that the store
that sold their bikes was less than helpful.


Unlike cars, which never need to be fixed, and that's why there are no
auto repair shops. http://tinyurl.com/jba5fgb


Care to compare the number of vehicles plus the miles traveled? Maybe
then it becomes more clear. Cars are way more reliable than bicycles.
Especially if you buy top quality cars like we did. Other than regular
scheduled maintenance there were no breakdowns in the whole two decades
we own them. None, as in zero. Not even one flat tire. Try that with a
bicycle.


It's not clear why you think you can compare cars to bicycles with
respect to durability. Bicycle design parameters are not the same as
those for a car. For one thing, they have to be propelled by a person,
not a motor. No one would pay for a bike made to your specs anyway.
  #137  
Old January 17th 17, 04:21 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,870
Default Stronger rubber cement?

On Tuesday, January 17, 2017 at 7:50:18 AM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-16 19:28, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, January 16, 2017 at 4:23:53 PM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-16 13:39, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, January 16, 2017 at 2:39:18 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, January 16, 2017 at 11:03:05 AM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-16 10:43, David Scheidt wrote:
Joerg wrote:

:Yup. Standard bicycle tubes are usually junk. Would you accept
it if you :had to pump up the tires of your car every two
weeks? Yet most cyclists :think this is "normal".

Automotive tires have a much lower ratio of surface area to
volume than bike tires. They're also run a lower pressure, for
the most part.


Truck tires are often operated around 50psi or higher. Like my
MTB tires are.

A truck tire weights as a much as TWO UCI minimum race bikes -- or
one DH bike. Now throw in the rim. You have peculiar expectations
for bicycles. You're theoretically perfect bike would weigh about
250lbs.

-- Jay Beattie.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. What Joerg's wants in a
bicycle are would be met by a 250cc dirt-motorcycle converted to
pedal power and the engine removed.

I find it astounding that so many others who ride in very harsh
conditions do NOT have the breakages or other problems that Joerg
does.


According to several bicycle shop owners they do. Many said that two
factors allowed them to survive as a business:

1. Mountain bikers breaking stuff all the time.

2. Department store bike buyers who needed help and found that the store
that sold their bikes was less than helpful.


Unlike cars, which never need to be fixed, and that's why there are no auto repair shops. http://tinyurl.com/jba5fgb


Care to compare the number of vehicles plus the miles traveled? Maybe
then it becomes more clear. Cars are way more reliable than bicycles.
Especially if you buy top quality cars like we did. Other than regular
scheduled maintenance there were no breakdowns in the whole two decades
we own them. None, as in zero. Not even one flat tire. Try that with a
bicycle.


I just spent $1,200 on a clutch because my dopey son lives in a city with 20% grades up to stop lights. That does not include the motel bill and towing when the clutch went belly-up outside of Baker City. That was after new rear drums, bearings, etc., etc. I've stupidly re-bought that car -- not including gas and oil changes.

An F-1 patch costs me $.08. A decent bike is $1K, and I don't pay insurance, registration, licensing, etc.

What I pay in car insurance annually would buy me an all new bike every year. Skip cleaning the chain -- just put last year's bike out with the garbage. Plus, my bikes are reliable. I reliably change the chain when the wear indicator indicates and change the tires when they are worn out. I fix a flat now and then and do other routine maintenance. It's not like some monumental inconvenience, and if flats were epidemic, then I would switch to a hard-case tire. I would not agonize over the fact that the 20lb tire on my Subaru goes flat less often.

That is not to say that bike tires are not ridiculously expensive. I do have issues with the cost of certain bike-related things.

-- Jay Beattie.



  #138  
Old January 17th 17, 05:33 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jeff Liebermann
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,018
Default Stronger rubber cement?

On Tue, 17 Jan 2017 14:38:12 +0700, John B.
wrote:

Inner tubes come in a myriad types and prices. If you buy the absolute
lightest, thinnest, tubes, they will leak, but if you buy thicker
inner tubes they will usually be cheaper and may leak a bit but not to
the "pump them up every day" extent.


Yep. That was also my theory. I would buy the cheapest tubes
available from a reputable discounter and expect to receive moderately
heavy and presumably thick inner tubes. I don't have a small
collection of cheap inner tubes. All seem to leak very slowly.

I keep planning to drag a few tubes down to the local auto tire
dealer, who has a proper dunk tank, and look for bubbles. I expect
the leaks to be really obvious as inflating the inner tube to a low
pressure without it being confined in a tire, causes any tiny holes to
greatly expand. For what it's worth, the tubes that seem to leak the
least were bought at a department store (K-mart).

It used to be that "sew ups", or "tubular's", were the last word in
bicycle tires and, as I remember it, they did require pumping up
practically every time you got on the bike. (and I don't remember
anyone complaining about it :-)


I have a set of wheels with sew ups somewhere. I last used them maybe
40 years ago. I've never raced, so sew ups offer no benefits to me. I
wonder if they still will hold air?

Drivel:
How to patch a tire with deodorant and clear package tape:
http://www.instructables.com/id/Fix-A-Bike-Inner-Tube-With-Two-Common-House-Hold-P/?ALLSTEPS
Ummm... not a good idea.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
  #139  
Old January 17th 17, 05:47 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,016
Default Stronger rubber cement?

On 2017-01-17 08:21, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, January 17, 2017 at 7:50:18 AM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-16 19:28, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, January 16, 2017 at 4:23:53 PM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-16 13:39, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, January 16, 2017 at 2:39:18 PM UTC-5, jbeattie
wrote:
On Monday, January 16, 2017 at 11:03:05 AM UTC-8, Joerg
wrote:
On 2017-01-16 10:43, David Scheidt wrote:
Joerg wrote:

:Yup. Standard bicycle tubes are usually junk. Would
you accept it if you :had to pump up the tires of your
car every two weeks? Yet most cyclists :think this is
"normal".

Automotive tires have a much lower ratio of surface
area to volume than bike tires. They're also run a
lower pressure, for the most part.


Truck tires are often operated around 50psi or higher.
Like my MTB tires are.

A truck tire weights as a much as TWO UCI minimum race
bikes -- or one DH bike. Now throw in the rim. You have
peculiar expectations for bicycles. You're theoretically
perfect bike would weigh about 250lbs.

-- Jay Beattie.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. What Joerg's wants
in a bicycle are would be met by a 250cc dirt-motorcycle
converted to pedal power and the engine removed.

I find it astounding that so many others who ride in very
harsh conditions do NOT have the breakages or other problems
that Joerg does.


According to several bicycle shop owners they do. Many said
that two factors allowed them to survive as a business:

1. Mountain bikers breaking stuff all the time.

2. Department store bike buyers who needed help and found that
the store that sold their bikes was less than helpful.

Unlike cars, which never need to be fixed, and that's why there
are no auto repair shops. http://tinyurl.com/jba5fgb


Care to compare the number of vehicles plus the miles traveled?
Maybe then it becomes more clear. Cars are way more reliable than
bicycles. Especially if you buy top quality cars like we did. Other
than regular scheduled maintenance there were no breakdowns in the
whole two decades we own them. None, as in zero. Not even one flat
tire. Try that with a bicycle.


I just spent $1,200 on a clutch because my dopey son lives in a city
with 20% grades up to stop lights. That does not include the motel
bill and towing when the clutch went belly-up outside of Baker City.
That was after new rear drums, bearings, etc., etc. I've stupidly
re-bought that car -- not including gas and oil changes.


Get a new son 8-)

I drive a stick-shift and have hauled copious amounts of fuel pellets,
lumber, industrial equipment, plus half-ton loads of firewood over some
really bad dirt roads. We have a very hilly terrain including some steep
roads that can scare people. Nothing ever broke.


An F-1 patch costs me $.08. A decent bike is $1K, and I don't pay
insurance, registration, licensing, etc.


You do pay insurance. Bike mishaps are simply covered by other insurance
such as home owner's but you must pay the premiums. Else you might lose
all you've got if you screw up in traffic and cause a serious crash. One
of the many reason for umbrella policies. As a lawyer you should know :-)


What I pay in car insurance annually would buy me an all new bike
every year. Skip cleaning the chain -- just put last year's bike out
with the garbage. Plus, my bikes are reliable. I reliably change the
chain when the wear indicator indicates and change the tires when
they are worn out. I fix a flat now and then and do other routine
maintenance. It's not like some monumental inconvenience, and if
flats were epidemic, then I would switch to a hard-case tire. I
would not agonize over the fact that the 20lb tire on my Subaru goes
flat less often.


My point is that when I say I am going to be there for an important
meeting at 11:30am I don't want to leave half an hour earlier just in
case I get a flat. And good luck getting that Gatorksin tire back onto
one of my rims.


That is not to say that bike tires are not ridiculously expensive. I
do have issues with the cost of certain bike-related things.


For the MTB I have (almost) found the solution. The best tires seem to
come from Asia and they also happen to be cheap. The MTB still costs a
bit much to operate per mile but oh well. Still looking for a solution
for the road bike and I'll have to find that soon because I just mounted
the last Gatorskin from the stack.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #140  
Old January 17th 17, 05:58 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jeff Liebermann
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,018
Default Stronger rubber cement?

On Tue, 17 Jan 2017 08:04:14 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

You won't see slow leakage anymore after switching to the thick tubes.


I hope not.

How thick are the Sunlite tubes? It seems they also make 2.25mm thick
tubes:
https://www.amazon.com/Sunlite-Dirt-2-25mm-Thick-Tubes/dp/B016QRR4TU
Racing tubes seem to be around 0.7mm while street tubes seem to hover
around 0.9mm. I can't find a number for the ones you recommend.

Also, do you have a rubber hardness gauge?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/162026017972
I have one which I use to measure automobile tire hardness, o-ring
flex, gasket hardness, and effects of UV hardening, temperature,
solvents, etc. However, I've never bothered to test bicycle inner
tubes. Time permitting, I'll do some quick checking. Note that the
way the gauge works is to attempt to shove a needle into the material.
Hopefully, that won't puncture the tube.

I believe you do not live in hilly terrain but in the Bay Area and there
the increased weight won't matter much. The increased rotating mass
might but only if you have lots of stop and go traffic, with a lot of
braking.


Well, I live in the Santa Cruz mountains, which are full of hills.
However, I don't ride around my house. What little I do these days is
a few excursions, and some local errands. I seem to be putting more
mileage on my indoor bicycle trainer than on the road. During summer,
I do service calls on my bicycle, which carrying a backpack full of
tools and junk. Running errands around town involves some stop and
go, but we have a nice multipurpose road that parallels the river
which bypasses most of the traffic.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
 




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