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Stronger rubber cement?



 
 
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  #191  
Old January 18th 17, 09:53 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Phil Lee
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Posts: 248
Default Stronger rubber cement?

Joerg considered Mon, 16 Jan 2017
12:31:41 -0800 the perfect time to write:

On 2017-01-04 20:32, Phil Lee wrote:
Joerg considered Wed, 04 Jan 2017


[...]


I'll look into contact cement. Gene also suggested that. Cost is not so
much an issue but shelf life after opening is. The usual rubber cement
is toast only a few months after opening.

It also has to become a pliable connection because those cuts are on the
side walls. Ever since moving to tire liners plus thich tubes plus thick
tire surfaces I don't get "regular" flats via running surface punctures
anymore.


A useful tip for storing cans or bottles of such materials (including
paints, as well) is to store them upside down.



Good point. At least I always make sure to turn them upside down for a
little and then right them again. That way any possible break in te seal
will (hopefully) remain "gunked".


That way, any slight imperfection in the seal around the lid will fill
with the glue, paint, or whatever, and dry to form a perfect seal,
which will preserve the contents.



Except that continued upside-down storage without a catch basin can
result in a nasty surprise when coming back from a vacation.

It never has for me, even after years of storage.

If you store it right side up, only the vapour will be seeping out of
any imperfections, and the contents will dry out.
The only downside is that it can get difficult to open, if the seal
was particularly bad to start with, as the glue or paint will stick
the lid on rather firmly. But that only happens in the case of a
container in which the contents would have dried out anyway, so you
haven't lost anything.


I got used to the fact that PVC cement, various glues and whatnot can
require a vise and sturdy pliers to open if it hadn't been used for a
few months. No big deal.

Ads
  #192  
Old January 18th 17, 10:10 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
James[_8_]
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Posts: 6,153
Default Stronger rubber cement?

On 19/01/17 02:51, Joerg wrote:


This is why I carry dextrose tablets in my first aid kit. So far I
never needed one of those myself but others did.


Wow. Dextrose tablets for others, but no chain breaker tool, instead
preferring rocks and fencing wire to fix the broken chains.

I guess it is more practical for me to be able to fix a chain and still
be able to ride. I have never been so hunger flat that I cannot turn
the pedals at all.

--
JS
  #193  
Old January 18th 17, 10:16 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Phil Lee
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Posts: 248
Default Stronger rubber cement?

Duane considered Tue, 17 Jan 2017
11:09:43 -0500 the perfect time to write:

On 17/01/2017 10:50 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-16 19:28, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, January 16, 2017 at 4:23:53 PM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-16 13:39, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, January 16, 2017 at 2:39:18 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, January 16, 2017 at 11:03:05 AM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-16 10:43, David Scheidt wrote:
Joerg wrote:

:Yup. Standard bicycle tubes are usually junk. Would you accept
it if you :had to pump up the tires of your car every two
weeks? Yet most cyclists :think this is "normal".

Automotive tires have a much lower ratio of surface area to
volume than bike tires. They're also run a lower pressure, for
the most part.


Truck tires are often operated around 50psi or higher. Like my
MTB tires are.

A truck tire weights as a much as TWO UCI minimum race bikes -- or
one DH bike. Now throw in the rim. You have peculiar expectations
for bicycles. You're theoretically perfect bike would weigh about
250lbs.

-- Jay Beattie.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. What Joerg's wants in a
bicycle are would be met by a 250cc dirt-motorcycle converted to
pedal power and the engine removed.

I find it astounding that so many others who ride in very harsh
conditions do NOT have the breakages or other problems that Joerg
does.


According to several bicycle shop owners they do. Many said that two
factors allowed them to survive as a business:

1. Mountain bikers breaking stuff all the time.

2. Department store bike buyers who needed help and found that the store
that sold their bikes was less than helpful.

Unlike cars, which never need to be fixed, and that's why there are no
auto repair shops. http://tinyurl.com/jba5fgb


Care to compare the number of vehicles plus the miles traveled? Maybe
then it becomes more clear. Cars are way more reliable than bicycles.
Especially if you buy top quality cars like we did. Other than regular
scheduled maintenance there were no breakdowns in the whole two decades
we own them. None, as in zero. Not even one flat tire. Try that with a
bicycle.


It's not clear why you think you can compare cars to bicycles with
respect to durability. Bicycle design parameters are not the same as
those for a car. For one thing, they have to be propelled by a person,
not a motor. No one would pay for a bike made to your specs anyway.


Especially if it was priced proportionately to the cost of materials!
  #194  
Old January 18th 17, 10:18 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
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Posts: 5,870
Default Stronger rubber cement?

On Wednesday, January 18, 2017 at 12:09:20 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/17/2017 9:07 PM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 17 Jan 2017 06:48:12 -0800 (PST), jbeattie
wrote:


Tubulars are still the last word in bicycle tires and what the pros ride, but they have

professional support staff who are physically fit and skilled in the
complex operation of floor pumps and other precision machinery. Most
of us do not have the intelligence or fitness necessary to operate a
floor pump -- and certainly not on a daily basis. My wife and I have
more robust tires on our bike that we have professionally pumped once
a year.
http://www.loupiote.com/photos_m/796...re-bicycle.jpg

-- Jay Beattie.


Gee, the U.S. must be a real "Alice" country. Professional tire
pumpers :-)


Of course! See 0:47 in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vn29DvMITu4

You don't have these ladies where you live? Sad!


We do! That was shot in Portland. The girls are wearing Yakima jerseys. I have one of those. I was on the team. The old guy team mascot -- someone to struggle on the back and talk about the old days of five-speed.

-- Jay Beattie.
  #195  
Old January 18th 17, 10:39 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
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Posts: 5,870
Default Stronger rubber cement?

On Wednesday, January 18, 2017 at 12:11:47 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/18/2017 11:33 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-18 09:18, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, January 18, 2017 at 7:36:44 AM UTC-8, Joerg
wrote:
On 2017-01-17 15:26, DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH wrote:
analog,

I will not explain tire mounting again. Retard at your
own speed


I have explained to you that these are _flat_ rims. Hard to
understand?

The Argent rim is just a Mod E2. Right?



Mine are Mavic Module “3†Argent “D†. Almost flat
inside.


http://equusbicycle.com/bike/mavic/images/11and12.jpg Pretty
standard rim of the era. Get VAR lever. It lifts the bead
over the
rim. Your problems will be solved. Getting another tire
or rim will
also solve your problems. Most people will not wrestle
with a tire
for a half-an-hour, at least not more than once.


I have broken many high quality levers on those and bike
shop owners have confirmed that issue. When they say "Good
luck getting them on" you know what you are up to.

The thick tubes I have do not exactly help in keeping the
bead towards the center but I made myself Delrin pieces to
do that. The relief that this provides is very limited
though, as evidenced by the fact that even with thin tubes
Gatorskins are really hard to mount onto these rims.

Fact is, the Vredestein tires always went on with ease and
the Gatorskin tires do not. Huge difference. However, the
Vredesteins had too many flats. So, I am looking for a tire
that is very puncture-resistant, has sturdy side walls _and_
is easy to mount. Eventually I will find one and then buy a
stack of them. Just like I did for the MTB where I found
three brands that work well.


That's a known deficient design with hardly any drop between
the bead seats and the center well. Not only those Mavic,
but Trek copied it for some all-time-lousy rims under their
Bontrager brand. Very hard to mount/remove tires; Joerg is
not making that up.


No doubt, but that design existed for decades -- and yet we persevered. BTW, wasn't Trek's Mavic knock-off a Matrix? I had some of those. http://velobase.com/ViewComponent.as...e9ff1&Enum=107 That's a Mod E knock-off.

I think this is what Joerg has: http://velobase.com/ViewComponent.as...107&AbsPos=176

When I had to wrestle Turbos on to E2s, I got the VAR lever. There was no internet where I could pout. Thank God for the internet!

Colorful story: I got factory-second Turbos through my friends who worked for Specialized when the whole operation was in a single building. The tires were thrown in a barrel, and employees got them free with the understanding that they would not be re-sold, which they were -- to me for $5. The early versions were impossibly tight, and I often had tires with wavy tread. I would ride occasionally with the Mike Sinyard and the Specialized band of merry men and worry about my wavy treads giving me away as a black-market purchaser.

-- Jay Beattie.

  #196  
Old January 18th 17, 10:40 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Doug Landau
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Posts: 1,424
Default Stronger rubber cement?

On Wednesday, January 18, 2017 at 2:18:40 PM UTC-8, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, January 18, 2017 at 12:09:20 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/17/2017 9:07 PM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 17 Jan 2017 06:48:12 -0800 (PST), jbeattie
wrote:


Tubulars are still the last word in bicycle tires and what the pros ride, but they have
professional support staff who are physically fit and skilled in the
complex operation of floor pumps and other precision machinery. Most
of us do not have the intelligence or fitness necessary to operate a
floor pump -- and certainly not on a daily basis. My wife and I have
more robust tires on our bike that we have professionally pumped once
a year.
http://www.loupiote.com/photos_m/796...re-bicycle.jpg


At Burningman?

  #197  
Old January 18th 17, 10:50 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Phil Lee
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Posts: 248
Default Stronger rubber cement?

Joerg considered Tue, 17 Jan 2017
10:56:15 -0800 the perfect time to write:

On 2017-01-17 10:36, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, January 17, 2017 at 9:47:32 AM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-17 08:21, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, January 17, 2017 at 7:50:18 AM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-16 19:28, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, January 16, 2017 at 4:23:53 PM UTC-8, Joerg
wrote:
On 2017-01-16 13:39, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, January 16, 2017 at 2:39:18 PM UTC-5,
jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, January 16, 2017 at 11:03:05 AM UTC-8,
Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-16 10:43, David Scheidt wrote:
Joerg wrote:

:Yup. Standard bicycle tubes are usually junk.
Would you accept it if you :had to pump up the
tires of your car every two weeks? Yet most
cyclists :think this is "normal".

Automotive tires have a much lower ratio of
surface area to volume than bike tires. They're
also run a lower pressure, for the most part.


Truck tires are often operated around 50psi or
higher. Like my MTB tires are.

A truck tire weights as a much as TWO UCI minimum race
bikes -- or one DH bike. Now throw in the rim. You
have peculiar expectations for bicycles. You're
theoretically perfect bike would weigh about 250lbs.

-- Jay Beattie.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. What Joerg's
wants in a bicycle are would be met by a 250cc
dirt-motorcycle converted to pedal power and the engine
removed.

I find it astounding that so many others who ride in
very harsh conditions do NOT have the breakages or other
problems that Joerg does.


According to several bicycle shop owners they do. Many
said that two factors allowed them to survive as a
business:

1. Mountain bikers breaking stuff all the time.

2. Department store bike buyers who needed help and found
that the store that sold their bikes was less than
helpful.

Unlike cars, which never need to be fixed, and that's why
there are no auto repair shops. http://tinyurl.com/jba5fgb


Care to compare the number of vehicles plus the miles
traveled? Maybe then it becomes more clear. Cars are way more
reliable than bicycles. Especially if you buy top quality cars
like we did. Other than regular scheduled maintenance there
were no breakdowns in the whole two decades we own them. None,
as in zero. Not even one flat tire. Try that with a bicycle.

I just spent $1,200 on a clutch because my dopey son lives in a
city with 20% grades up to stop lights. That does not include
the motel bill and towing when the clutch went belly-up outside
of Baker City. That was after new rear drums, bearings, etc.,
etc. I've stupidly re-bought that car -- not including gas and
oil changes.


Get a new son 8-)


He needs to get an automatic. Knowing SLC and Cameron Park, I can
guaranty you that his hills are worse than yours. Driving a dirt road
is one thing. Coming to a stop on a 20-30% grade at a light with
cars a foot behind you is another.



I can take you on some roads that would likely make you re-think that
statement. And I do venture past Cameron Park.


I drive a stick-shift and have hauled copious amounts of fuel
pellets, lumber, industrial equipment, plus half-ton loads of
firewood over some really bad dirt roads. We have a very hilly
terrain including some steep roads that can scare people. Nothing
ever broke.


An F-1 patch costs me $.08. A decent bike is $1K, and I don't
pay insurance, registration, licensing, etc.


You do pay insurance. Bike mishaps are simply covered by other
insurance such as home owner's but you must pay the premiums. Else
you might lose all you've got if you screw up in traffic and cause
a serious crash. One of the many reason for umbrella policies. As a
lawyer you should know :-)


So what your saying is that I pay nothing extra insurance-wise for
owning a bike. It is covered by insurance that I already own. (:
OTOH, there are whole other things called "auto insurance policies"
-- specially for autos! And they cost a lot! ):


That is the same as saying that welfare costs us nothing. _Everyone_ is
paying for the risk of cycling including home owners who never ride. Is
that fair? I don't think so but that's the way it is. With cars you only
pay if you actually have one. If you have decades of no claim it's cheap.

The point is that the risk associated with cycling is so tiny that it
would cost far more to separate it out from the general personal cover
that is included with every home contents insurance package I've been
able to find in the UK than to just include it. It's so low that even
bicycle specific cover is included in membership of many cycling
organisations, who's total membership fees are in the low tens of
pounds, and have to raise funds for the organisation as well as
produce newsletters, run websites, pay a full-time staff, buy or lease
an office, and the like.
It's right up there with the risk of someone being hit by a roofing
tile or slate blown from your roof by high winds!



What I pay in car insurance annually would buy me an all new
bike every year. Skip cleaning the chain -- just put last year's
bike out with the garbage. Plus, my bikes are reliable. I
reliably change the chain when the wear indicator indicates and
change the tires when they are worn out. I fix a flat now and
then and do other routine maintenance. It's not like some
monumental inconvenience, and if flats were epidemic, then I
would switch to a hard-case tire. I would not agonize over the
fact that the 20lb tire on my Subaru goes flat less often.


My point is that when I say I am going to be there for an
important meeting at 11:30am I don't want to leave half an hour
earlier just in case I get a flat. And good luck getting that
Gatorksin tire back onto one of my rims.


If it takes you half an hour to fix a flat, you have other problems
that need to be addressed.


Yeah, I could get new rims and/or different tires. That is why finding a
suitable tire isn't easy. You are welcome to come over and try getting a
Gatorskin onto my rims.


It seems to me that the problem is with either your rims or your
technique.
I've changed Gatorskins without levers or difficulty, right up to the
stage where my arthritis was a serious problem for normal riding, or
even holding a pen.
Therefore I would suggest that any other tyre you try will have the
same problem.
Heck, if you think your Gatorskins are difficult, I wonder how hard
you'd find a Marathon Plus on an ISO 406 (20") rim!
I've done that too, and although I did need levers to remove the tyre,
it wasn't particularly difficult or time consuming - about 10 minutes,
mostly spent prepping the tube for patching and checking the inside of
the cover for debris and/or penetrating objects (although that was
done while waiting for the rubber cement to dry enough for the patch
to be applied). I could have halved the time by using a CO2 inflator,
at a guess - but I prefer a pump, which doesn't run out or leave
waste.

Your half hour tube change on a road bike is about the time I'd have
expected to take to replace the tyre on the inside wheel of a pair on
the drive axle or semi-trailer of an articulated heavy truck, which
I've also had to do in the past. The tyre, not the whole wheel - that
part just takes 10 minutes. So 20 minutes for the tyre swap, although
admittedly that is with split rims (although they are in my experience
universal on wheels designed for that duty).

Certainly, the variability in arrival time from punctures on a bicycle
is FAR less than the variability in arrival time in a car due to
traffic - that is one of the major reasons people choose to commute by
bicycle!
  #198  
Old January 18th 17, 11:10 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 10,538
Default Stronger rubber cement?

On 1/18/2017 5:18 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, January 18, 2017 at 12:09:20 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/17/2017 9:07 PM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 17 Jan 2017 06:48:12 -0800 (PST), jbeattie
wrote:


Tubulars are still the last word in bicycle tires and what the pros ride, but they have
professional support staff who are physically fit and skilled in the
complex operation of floor pumps and other precision machinery. Most
of us do not have the intelligence or fitness necessary to operate a
floor pump -- and certainly not on a daily basis. My wife and I have
more robust tires on our bike that we have professionally pumped once
a year.
http://www.loupiote.com/photos_m/796...re-bicycle.jpg

-- Jay Beattie.

Gee, the U.S. must be a real "Alice" country. Professional tire
pumpers :-)


Of course! See 0:47 in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vn29DvMITu4

You don't have these ladies where you live? Sad!


We do! That was shot in Portland. The girls are wearing Yakima jerseys. I have one of those. I was on the team. The old guy team mascot -- someone to struggle on the back and talk about the old days of five-speed.


Whaddya mean, "old days"??


--
- Frank Krygowski
  #199  
Old January 18th 17, 11:22 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Phil Lee
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Posts: 248
Default Stronger rubber cement?

Joerg considered Wed, 18 Jan 2017
07:36:11 -0800 the perfect time to write:

On 2017-01-17 11:36, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, January 17, 2017 at 10:56:13 AM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-17 10:36, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, January 17, 2017 at 9:47:32 AM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-17 08:21, jbeattie wrote:


[...]


What I pay in car insurance annually would buy me an all new
bike every year. Skip cleaning the chain -- just put last
year's bike out with the garbage. Plus, my bikes are
reliable. I reliably change the chain when the wear
indicator indicates and change the tires when they are worn
out. I fix a flat now and then and do other routine
maintenance. It's not like some monumental inconvenience, and
if flats were epidemic, then I would switch to a hard-case
tire. I would not agonize over the fact that the 20lb tire
on my Subaru goes flat less often.


My point is that when I say I am going to be there for an
important meeting at 11:30am I don't want to leave half an
hour earlier just in case I get a flat. And good luck getting
that Gatorksin tire back onto one of my rims.

If it takes you half an hour to fix a flat, you have other
problems that need to be addressed.


Yeah, I could get new rims and/or different tires. That is why
finding a suitable tire isn't easy. You are welcome to come over
and try getting a Gatorskin onto my rims.


Dude, I was mounting first generation Turbos on E2s rims using my
bare thumbs, but when I could no longer stand the pain, I got a VAR
tool and packed that. http://tinyurl.com/j9ul39s



I've got various sets of really good tire levers. They are of no use
when wrestling the bead over the rim. Try Gatorskins on a flat Mavic
Argent rim. I am by far not the only one and people have used all sorts
of tricks. Problem is, there are no trick, just raw force.


... There are other
options as well. http://tinyurl.com/j2otl8g


Snaps off in seconds.


And if you are riding such gnarly ****, how is it that you are still
riding vintage rims? I would assume the brake surface is worn nearly
through or the rim is bashed up enough to justify a new rim
manufactured in the last decade with a deeper profile and a better
fit for most tires.


This is my 1982 road bike. I do not brake all that much so the rims are
ok. I also have two MTB where changing out a tire is a matter of minutes
and I could do it with one hand if I wanted to.


The (upright) bike I have most experience of fixing flats on is a 1987
Raleigh Royal touring bike, with original rims. The well in the rim
isn't deep, but it exists.
If you really do not have any well at all in your rims, then I would
suggest that you keep up with the technology and not use 21st century
tyres on a 35 year old rim, which may not adhere particularly well to
the ISO standard (it would have been about the time 622 (700c) was
replacing 27" as the standard, so might be a little bit off anyway).
Fitting new rims (which would probably be worthwhile anyway for rims
that old) would solve your problems.
MTB tyres are always easy, in my experience - I rarely need levers
even to take them off, so it's not really a fair comparison.
  #200  
Old January 18th 17, 11:25 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Phil Lee
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 248
Default Stronger rubber cement?

Joerg considered Wed, 18 Jan 2017
07:36:48 -0800 the perfect time to write:

On 2017-01-17 15:26, DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH wrote:
analog,

I will not explain tire mounting again. Retard at your own speed


I have explained to you that these are _flat_ rims. Hard to understand?


Most of us never seem to have encountered such rims, so yes, it is
hard to understand that any manufacturer would produce such an utterly
useless design!
Are you sure they aren't cheap Chinese knockoffs of a normally good
quality product?
 




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