If you don't believe in Evolution, then why do you drive an SUV?

David Kerber wrote:

In article ,
says...

I am talking about oil energy required, not food energy. It takes roughly
ten units of oil energy to get one unit of food energy into your body.
Farming, fertilizer, transportation, cooking, cleaning take lot of energy.
For ideal cases, a bike may burn as much energy as a very efficient small
car. For head winds and other non-ideal conditions the equivalent MPG
drop down into the range of other cars.


So if I go on a ride and burn 600 kCal of energy over and above what I
would burn driving that same 30 miles or so, I would use 6000 kcal of
oil energy? Do you realize just how little gasoline it takes to account
for that much energy? My 30 mpg car would burn approx 1 gallon of
gasoline to go that distance, which is way more than 6000kCal.

After looking up the numbers, here's what I found:

According to the DOE, 1 (US) gal of gasoline provides approx 124000
BTU's of energy (an average across all common grades). 1 BTU is approx
252 calories (251.9958 according to my converter), so 1 gallon of
gasoline provides approx 31248000 calories, or 31248 kCal. So accepting
for the sake of argument your assertion that 1 cal of food energy takes
10 cal of oil energy, I would burn about 5 times as much gasoline energy
to drive 30 miles as I would to ride my bike that same distance. So
your math is rather off...

Hey don't be so hard on Jack, he's just doing calculations according to
"normal research these days"!

Tadej
--
"Vergleich es mit einer Pflanze - die wächst auch nur dann gut, wenn du
sie nicht jeden zweiten Tag aus der Erde reißt, um nachzusehen, ob sie
schon Wurzeln geschlagen hat."
Martina Diel in d.t.r

"Tadej Brezina" wrote in message
. ..
David Kerber wrote:

In article ,
says...

I am talking about oil energy required, not food energy. It takes
roughly
ten units of oil energy to get one unit of food energy into your body.
Farming, fertilizer, transportation, cooking, cleaning take lot of
energy.
For ideal cases, a bike may burn as much energy as a very efficient
small
car. For head winds and other non-ideal conditions the equivalent MPG
drop down into the range of other cars.


So if I go on a ride and burn 600 kCal of energy over and above what I
would burn driving that same 30 miles or so, I would use 6000 kcal of
oil energy? Do you realize just how little gasoline it takes to account
for that much energy? My 30 mpg car would burn approx 1 gallon of
gasoline to go that distance, which is way more than 6000kCal.

After looking up the numbers, here's what I found:

According to the DOE, 1 (US) gal of gasoline provides approx 124000
BTU's of energy (an average across all common grades). 1 BTU is approx
252 calories (251.9958 according to my converter), so 1 gallon of
gasoline provides approx 31248000 calories, or 31248 kCal. So accepting
for the sake of argument your assertion that 1 cal of food energy takes
10 cal of oil energy, I would burn about 5 times as much gasoline energy
to drive 30 miles as I would to ride my bike that same distance. So
your math is rather off...

Hey don't be so hard on Jack, he's just doing calculations according to
"normal research these days"!

Tadej

Part of smart growth buildings these days in the USA is to include
showers, clothes washing services and chaning rooms in eco-smart buildings
so bike riders can enter the business world in proper clothing. Europe has
many fewer hot days than we do in the southern part of the USA.

"David Kerber" wrote in message
t...
In article ,
says...
to go that distance, which is way more than 6000kCal.

After looking up the numbers, here's what I found:

According to the DOE, 1 (US) gal of gasoline provides approx 124000
BTU's of energy (an average across all common grades). 1 BTU is approx
252 calories (251.9958 according to my converter), so 1 gallon of
gasoline provides approx 31248000 calories, or 31248 kCal. So accepting
for the sake of argument your assertion that 1 cal of food energy takes
10 cal of oil energy, I would burn about 5 times as much gasoline energy
to drive 30 miles as I would to ride my bike that same distance. So
your math is rather off...

It has been some time since I have revisited the subject of how much oil
(not gasoline as you mistakenly used), but here some recent data.

http://www.energybulletin.net/5045.html

"However, transport energy consumption is also significant, and if included
in these ratios would mean that the ratio would decrease further. For
example, when iceberg lettuce is imported to the UK from the USA by plane,
the energy ratio is only 0.00786. In other words 127 calories of energy
(aviation fuel) are needed to transport 1 calorie of lettuce across the
Atlantic. If the energy consumed during lettuce cultivation, packaging,
refrigeration, distribution in the UK and shopping by car was included, the
energy needed would be even higher. Similarly, 97 calories of transport
energy are needed to import 1 calorie of asparagus by plane from Chile, and
66 units of energy are consumed when flying 1 unit of carrot energy from
South Africa."

One example in the same paper of the amount of processing done for food is:

"Just how energy inefficient the food system is can be seen in the crazy
case of the Swedish tomato ketchup. Researchers at the Swedish Institute for
Food and Biotechnology analysed the production of tomato ketchup (2). The
study considered the production of inputs to agriculture, tomato cultivation
and conversion to tomato paste (in Italy), the processing and packaging of
the paste and other ingredients into tomato ketchup in Sweden and the retail
and storage of the final product. All this involved more than 52 transport
and process stages."

"The aseptic bags used to package the tomato paste were produced in the
Netherlands and transported to Italy to be filled, placed in steel barrels,
and then moved to Sweden. The five layered, red bottles were either produced
in the UK or Sweden with materials form Japan, Italy, Belgium, the USA and
Denmark. The polypropylene (PP) screw-cap of the bottle and plug, made from
low density polyethylene (LDPE), was produced in Denmark and transported to
Sweden. Additionally, LDPE shrink-film and corrugated cardboard were used to
distribute the final product. Labels, glue and ink were not included in the
analysis."


Claiming that a bicycle is efficient in oil use is a real stretch to say the
least

"Jack May" wrote in message
...

"David Kerber" wrote in message
t...
In article ,
says...
to go that distance, which is way more than 6000kCal.

After looking up the numbers, here's what I found:

According to the DOE, 1 (US) gal of gasoline provides approx 124000
BTU's of energy (an average across all common grades). 1 BTU is approx
252 calories (251.9958 according to my converter), so 1 gallon of
gasoline provides approx 31248000 calories, or 31248 kCal. So accepting
for the sake of argument your assertion that 1 cal of food energy takes
10 cal of oil energy, I would burn about 5 times as much gasoline energy
to drive 30 miles as I would to ride my bike that same distance. So
your math is rather off...

It has been some time since I have revisited the subject of how much oil
(not gasoline as you mistakenly used), but here some recent data.

http://www.energybulletin.net/5045.html

"However, transport energy consumption is also significant, and if
included in these ratios would mean that the ratio would decrease further.
For example, when iceberg lettuce is imported to the UK from the USA by
plane, the energy ratio is only 0.00786. In other words 127 calories of
energy (aviation fuel) are needed to transport 1 calorie of lettuce across
the Atlantic. If the energy consumed during lettuce cultivation,
packaging, refrigeration, distribution in the UK and shopping by car was
included, the energy needed would be even higher. Similarly, 97 calories
of transport energy are needed to import 1 calorie of asparagus by plane
from Chile, and 66 units of energy are consumed when flying 1 unit of
carrot energy from South Africa."

One example in the same paper of the amount of processing done for food
is:

"Just how energy inefficient the food system is can be seen in the crazy
case of the Swedish tomato ketchup. Researchers at the Swedish Institute
for Food and Biotechnology analysed the production of tomato ketchup (2).
The study considered the production of inputs to agriculture, tomato
cultivation and conversion to tomato paste (in Italy), the processing and
packaging of the paste and other ingredients into tomato ketchup in Sweden
and the retail and storage of the final product. All this involved more
than 52 transport and process stages."

"The aseptic bags used to package the tomato paste were produced in the
Netherlands and transported to Italy to be filled, placed in steel
barrels, and then moved to Sweden. The five layered, red bottles were
either produced in the UK or Sweden with materials form Japan, Italy,
Belgium, the USA and Denmark. The polypropylene (PP) screw-cap of the
bottle and plug, made from low density polyethylene (LDPE), was produced
in Denmark and transported to Sweden. Additionally, LDPE shrink-film and
corrugated cardboard were used to distribute the final product. Labels,
glue and ink were not included in the analysis."


Claiming that a bicycle is efficient in oil use is a real stretch to say
the least

It looks to me like you're the one who is stretching, since the energy cost
of sending iceberg lettuce to the UK from the US is irrelevant to the
discussion. It's already been established that the biking situation in the
UK and Europe is substantially different to that here. It is, however, a
great argument for buying your produce from local suppliers, something
people who are riding bikes because they are concerned about the environment
are more likely to do than people who don't think much about their
environmental impact at all (and thus are more likely to drive).

George Conklin wrote:
"Tadej Brezina" wrote in message
. ..
David Kerber wrote:

In article ,
says...

I am talking about oil energy required, not food energy. It takes
roughly
ten units of oil energy to get one unit of food energy into your body.
Farming, fertilizer, transportation, cooking, cleaning take lot of
energy.
For ideal cases, a bike may burn as much energy as a very efficient
small
car. For head winds and other non-ideal conditions the equivalent MPG
drop down into the range of other cars.

So if I go on a ride and burn 600 kCal of energy over and above what I
would burn driving that same 30 miles or so, I would use 6000 kcal of
oil energy? Do you realize just how little gasoline it takes to account
for that much energy? My 30 mpg car would burn approx 1 gallon of
gasoline to go that distance, which is way more than 6000kCal.

After looking up the numbers, here's what I found:

According to the DOE, 1 (US) gal of gasoline provides approx 124000
BTU's of energy (an average across all common grades). 1 BTU is approx
252 calories (251.9958 according to my converter), so 1 gallon of
gasoline provides approx 31248000 calories, or 31248 kCal. So accepting
for the sake of argument your assertion that 1 cal of food energy takes
10 cal of oil energy, I would burn about 5 times as much gasoline energy
to drive 30 miles as I would to ride my bike that same distance. So
your math is rather off...
Hey don't be so hard on Jack, he's just doing calculations according to
"normal research these days"!

Tadej

Part of smart growth buildings these days in the USA is to include
showers, clothes washing services and chaning rooms in eco-smart buildings
so bike riders can enter the business world in proper clothing. Europe has
many fewer hot days than we do in the southern part of the USA.

You will want a shower after riding a bicycle in the upper Midwest on a
summer day.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"And never forget, life ultimately makes failures of all people."
- A. Derleth

Jack May wrote:
"David Kerber" wrote in message
t...
In article ,
says...
to go that distance, which is way more than 6000kCal.
After looking up the numbers, here's what I found:

According to the DOE, 1 (US) gal of gasoline provides approx 124000
BTU's of energy (an average across all common grades). 1 BTU is approx
252 calories (251.9958 according to my converter), so 1 gallon of
gasoline provides approx 31248000 calories, or 31248 kCal. So accepting
for the sake of argument your assertion that 1 cal of food energy takes
10 cal of oil energy, I would burn about 5 times as much gasoline energy
to drive 30 miles as I would to ride my bike that same distance. So
your math is rather off...

It has been some time since I have revisited the subject of how much oil
(not gasoline as you mistakenly used), but here some recent data.

http://www.energybulletin.net/5045.html

"However, transport energy consumption is also significant, and if included
in these ratios would mean that the ratio would decrease further. For
example, when iceberg lettuce is imported to the UK from the USA by plane,
the energy ratio is only 0.00786. In other words 127 calories of energy
(aviation fuel) are needed to transport 1 calorie of lettuce across the
Atlantic. If the energy consumed during lettuce cultivation, packaging,
refrigeration, distribution in the UK and shopping by car was included, the
energy needed would be even higher. Similarly, 97 calories of transport
energy are needed to import 1 calorie of asparagus by plane from Chile, and
66 units of energy are consumed when flying 1 unit of carrot energy from
South Africa."

One example in the same paper of the amount of processing done for food is:

"Just how energy inefficient the food system is can be seen in the crazy
case of the Swedish tomato ketchup. Researchers at the Swedish Institute for
Food and Biotechnology analysed the production of tomato ketchup (2). The
study considered the production of inputs to agriculture, tomato cultivation
and conversion to tomato paste (in Italy), the processing and packaging of
the paste and other ingredients into tomato ketchup in Sweden and the retail
and storage of the final product. All this involved more than 52 transport
and process stages."

"The aseptic bags used to package the tomato paste were produced in the
Netherlands and transported to Italy to be filled, placed in steel barrels,
and then moved to Sweden. The five layered, red bottles were either produced
in the UK or Sweden with materials form Japan, Italy, Belgium, the USA and
Denmark. The polypropylene (PP) screw-cap of the bottle and plug, made from
low density polyethylene (LDPE), was produced in Denmark and transported to
Sweden. Additionally, LDPE shrink-film and corrugated cardboard were used to
distribute the final product. Labels, glue and ink were not included in the
analysis."


Claiming that a bicycle is efficient in oil use is a real stretch to say the
least

What is the ratio of oil required to produce a bicycle and get it to the
LBS compared to the amount of oil required to produce a SUV and get it
to the dealer's lot?

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"And never forget, life ultimately makes failures of all people."
- A. Derleth

Jack May wrote:

"David Kerber" wrote in message
t...

In article ,
says...

to go that distance, which is way more than 6000kCal.

After looking up the numbers, here's what I found:

According to the DOE, 1 (US) gal of gasoline provides approx 124000
BTU's of energy (an average across all common grades). 1 BTU is approx
252 calories (251.9958 according to my converter), so 1 gallon of
gasoline provides approx 31248000 calories, or 31248 kCal. So accepting
for the sake of argument your assertion that 1 cal of food energy takes
10 cal of oil energy, I would burn about 5 times as much gasoline energy
to drive 30 miles as I would to ride my bike that same distance. So
your math is rather off...


It has been some time since I have revisited the subject of how much oil
(not gasoline as you mistakenly used), but here some recent data.

http://www.energybulletin.net/5045.html

"However, transport energy consumption is also significant, and if included
in these ratios would mean that the ratio would decrease further. For
example, when iceberg lettuce is imported to the UK from the USA by plane,
the energy ratio is only 0.00786. In other words 127 calories of energy
(aviation fuel) are needed to transport 1 calorie of lettuce across the
Atlantic. If the energy consumed during lettuce cultivation, packaging,
refrigeration, distribution in the UK and shopping by car was included, the
energy needed would be even higher. Similarly, 97 calories of transport
energy are needed to import 1 calorie of asparagus by plane from Chile, and
66 units of energy are consumed when flying 1 unit of carrot energy from
South Africa."

One example in the same paper of the amount of processing done for food is:

"Just how energy inefficient the food system is can be seen in the crazy
case of the Swedish tomato ketchup. Researchers at the Swedish Institute for
Food and Biotechnology analysed the production of tomato ketchup (2). The
study considered the production of inputs to agriculture, tomato cultivation
and conversion to tomato paste (in Italy), the processing and packaging of
the paste and other ingredients into tomato ketchup in Sweden and the retail
and storage of the final product. All this involved more than 52 transport
and process stages."

"The aseptic bags used to package the tomato paste were produced in the
Netherlands and transported to Italy to be filled, placed in steel barrels,
and then moved to Sweden. The five layered, red bottles were either produced
in the UK or Sweden with materials form Japan, Italy, Belgium, the USA and
Denmark. The polypropylene (PP) screw-cap of the bottle and plug, made from
low density polyethylene (LDPE), was produced in Denmark and transported to
Sweden. Additionally, LDPE shrink-film and corrugated cardboard were used to
distribute the final product. Labels, glue and ink were not included in the
analysis."

How's that Jack, endlessly posting irrelvant stuff in the
"Götterdämmerung" of denial?

1. As everyone, cyclist and driver may be eating food either transhipped
globally or produced organically and locally, your hidden attempt to
assign the energy intensive food solely to teh cyclist is as childish as
pre-puberty can get.
Still I would recommend to consume locally grown organic food.

2. Of course the bicycle production is not free of energy use and
emissions. Nobody who wants to be taken seriously, claims that. Cars do
get painted either, get zink coats, use a biblical mixture of materials,
etc.
So simply due to the at least fifty times higher mass (a generous 1000kg
for a car and a bad 20 kg for a bike), the impact ecological rucksack of
a car at stage of production end is again by orders of magnitude higher
than a car.

Claiming that a bicycle is efficient in oil use is a real stretch to say the
least

Jack, as usually, you are right!
Bicycles have no chance in comparison to walking regarding their
ecological impact.
Your original claim, that bicycles might be as low in energy consumption
as cars is a masterpiece of ridiculousness - making intelligent design
seem respectable in comparison.

Tadej
--
"Vergleich es mit einer Pflanze - die wächst auch nur dann gut, wenn du
sie nicht jeden zweiten Tag aus der Erde reißt, um nachzusehen, ob sie
schon Wurzeln geschlagen hat."
Martina Diel in d.t.r

George Conklin wrote:

"Tadej Brezina" wrote in message
. ..

David Kerber wrote:


In article ,
says...


I am talking about oil energy required, not food energy. It takes

roughly

ten units of oil energy to get one unit of food energy into your body.
Farming, fertilizer, transportation, cooking, cleaning take lot of

energy.

For ideal cases, a bike may burn as much energy as a very efficient

small

car. For head winds and other non-ideal conditions the equivalent MPG
drop down into the range of other cars.


So if I go on a ride and burn 600 kCal of energy over and above what I
would burn driving that same 30 miles or so, I would use 6000 kcal of
oil energy? Do you realize just how little gasoline it takes to account
for that much energy? My 30 mpg car would burn approx 1 gallon of
gasoline to go that distance, which is way more than 6000kCal.

After looking up the numbers, here's what I found:

According to the DOE, 1 (US) gal of gasoline provides approx 124000
BTU's of energy (an average across all common grades). 1 BTU is approx
252 calories (251.9958 according to my converter), so 1 gallon of
gasoline provides approx 31248000 calories, or 31248 kCal. So accepting
for the sake of argument your assertion that 1 cal of food energy takes
10 cal of oil energy, I would burn about 5 times as much gasoline energy
to drive 30 miles as I would to ride my bike that same distance. So
your math is rather off...

Hey don't be so hard on Jack, he's just doing calculations according to
"normal research these days"!

Tadej


Part of smart growth buildings these days in the USA is to include
showers, clothes washing services and chaning rooms in eco-smart buildings
so bike riders can enter the business world in proper clothing. Europe has
many fewer hot days than we do in the southern part of the USA.

Nice post Conk, nevertheless wrong location of the thread.
Yes you are probably true regarding moist and heat in the south. But
please do not compare apples and pears. Europe is not of singular
dimension, it has quite a respectable N-S extension and has very hot
places in the south too.
So compare e.g. New Orleans to Napoli or Boston to Hamburg.

Tadej
--
"Vergleich es mit einer Pflanze - die wächst auch nur dann gut, wenn du
sie nicht jeden zweiten Tag aus der Erde reißt, um nachzusehen, ob sie
schon Wurzeln geschlagen hat."
Martina Diel in d.t.r

Tadej Brezina wrote:

Jack May wrote:

"David Kerber" wrote in message
t...

In article ,
says...


to go that distance, which is way more than 6000kCal.

After looking up the numbers, here's what I found:

According to the DOE, 1 (US) gal of gasoline provides approx 124000
BTU's of energy (an average across all common grades). 1 BTU is approx
252 calories (251.9958 according to my converter), so 1 gallon of
gasoline provides approx 31248000 calories, or 31248 kCal. So accepting
for the sake of argument your assertion that 1 cal of food energy takes
10 cal of oil energy, I would burn about 5 times as much gasoline energy
to drive 30 miles as I would to ride my bike that same distance. So
your math is rather off...



It has been some time since I have revisited the subject of how much
oil (not gasoline as you mistakenly used), but here some recent data.

http://www.energybulletin.net/5045.html

"However, transport energy consumption is also significant, and if
included in these ratios would mean that the ratio would decrease
further. For example, when iceberg lettuce is imported to the UK from
the USA by plane, the energy ratio is only 0.00786. In other words 127
calories of energy (aviation fuel) are needed to transport 1 calorie
of lettuce across the Atlantic. If the energy consumed during lettuce
cultivation, packaging, refrigeration, distribution in the UK and
shopping by car was included, the energy needed would be even higher.
Similarly, 97 calories of transport energy are needed to import 1
calorie of asparagus by plane from Chile, and 66 units of energy are
consumed when flying 1 unit of carrot energy from South Africa."

One example in the same paper of the amount of processing done for
food is:

"Just how energy inefficient the food system is can be seen in the
crazy case of the Swedish tomato ketchup. Researchers at the Swedish
Institute for Food and Biotechnology analysed the production of tomato
ketchup (2). The study considered the production of inputs to
agriculture, tomato cultivation and conversion to tomato paste (in
Italy), the processing and packaging of the paste and other
ingredients into tomato ketchup in Sweden and the retail and storage
of the final product. All this involved more than 52 transport and
process stages."

"The aseptic bags used to package the tomato paste were produced in
the Netherlands and transported to Italy to be filled, placed in steel
barrels, and then moved to Sweden. The five layered, red bottles were
either produced in the UK or Sweden with materials form Japan, Italy,
Belgium, the USA and Denmark. The polypropylene (PP) screw-cap of the
bottle and plug, made from low density polyethylene (LDPE), was
produced in Denmark and transported to Sweden. Additionally, LDPE
shrink-film and corrugated cardboard were used to distribute the final
product. Labels, glue and ink were not included in the analysis."


How's that Jack, endlessly posting irrelvant stuff in the
"Götterdämmerung" of denial?

1. As everyone, cyclist and driver may be eating food either transhipped
globally or produced organically and locally, your hidden attempt to
assign the energy intensive food solely to teh cyclist is as childish as
pre-puberty can get.
Still I would recommend to consume locally grown organic food.

2. Of course the bicycle production is not free of energy use and
emissions. Nobody who wants to be taken seriously, claims that. Cars do
get painted either, get zink coats, use a biblical mixture of materials,
etc.
So simply due to the at least fifty times higher mass (a generous 1000kg
for a car and a bad 20 kg for a bike), the impact ecological rucksack of
a car at stage of production end is again by orders of magnitude higher
than a car.

"... higher than a bicycle."
T.
--
"Vergleich es mit einer Pflanze - die wächst auch nur dann gut, wenn du
sie nicht jeden zweiten Tag aus der Erde reißt, um nachzusehen, ob sie
schon Wurzeln geschlagen hat."
Martina Diel in d.t.r

In article ,
says...

Claiming that a bicycle is efficient in oil use is a real stretch to say the
least

The examples you list are rather extreme cases, however. If you eat
stuff that isn't grown on another continent, and/or is packaged near
where it's picked, those numbers change rather dramatically.

However, you were the one who stated a 10:1 ratio between food energy
and oil energy, so that's the number I used, and a bike comes out ahead
using that number and just the gasoline energy that the car consumes
directly. If you take into consideration the energy used to produce and
transport your car's gasoline to travel that 30 miles, the car comes out
even worse, and the other externalities which are higher for cars than
for bikes (road wear and resulting maintenance, etc), it comes out even
worse.


--
Remove the ns_ from if replying by e-mail (but keep posts in the
newsgroups if possible).