The REAL Weight Difference Between Derailleur and Rohloff Bikes?

I came across this very interesting comparison, fully populated with real-world numbers, between the all-up weight of modern derailleur transmissions and the Rohloff/Pinion hub gearboxes. You're in for a few surprises, he
https://www.cyclingabout.com/weight-...rohloff-bikes/

The weight advantage of derailleurs over a Rohloff hub gearbox is worth about one (1) minute over 100km in mildly hilly country. And that assumes the derailleur rider does everything perfectly: it is impossible to fluff a gear change on a Rohloff.

Andre Jute
The truth always comes out in the end

On Friday, December 27, 2019 at 5:20:32 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
I came across this very interesting comparison, fully populated with real-world numbers, between the all-up weight of modern derailleur transmissions and the Rohloff/Pinion hub gearboxes. You're in for a few surprises, he
https://www.cyclingabout.com/weight-...rohloff-bikes/

The weight advantage of derailleurs over a Rohloff hub gearbox is worth about one (1) minute over 100km in mildly hilly country. And that assumes the derailleur rider does everything perfectly: it is impossible to fluff a gear change on a Rohloff.

Andre Jute
The truth always comes out in the end

I have completely given up worrying about as much as 5 lbs. Though I would make this comment about internal geared hubs - the same thing that gives them an effective eternal lifespan also causes a lot of drag - an oil bath. How much I have never seen tested.

While cross chaining a derailleur system adds some drag, you would normally gear your bike so that you run near the middle range most of the time with very little drag. Oil bath drag is forever and in any gear.

On 12/29/2019 1:27 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:

I have completely given up worrying about as much as 5 lbs.

I'm beginning to worry about a different five pounds. This Christmas
season, it looks like I way one pound extra every morning. If this keeps
up, hills are going to get really tough.

But still there are cookies...


--
- Frank Krygowski

On Sunday, December 29, 2019 at 6:27:18 PM UTC, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, December 27, 2019 at 5:20:32 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
I came across this very interesting comparison, fully populated with real-world numbers, between the all-up weight of modern derailleur transmissions and the Rohloff/Pinion hub gearboxes. You're in for a few surprises, he
https://www.cyclingabout.com/weight-...rohloff-bikes/

The weight advantage of derailleurs over a Rohloff hub gearbox is worth about one (1) minute over 100km in mildly hilly country. And that assumes the derailleur rider does everything perfectly: it is impossible to fluff a gear change on a Rohloff.

Andre Jute
The truth always comes out in the end

I have completely given up worrying about as much as 5 lbs.

A Rohloff adds about one pound, not five.

Though I would make this comment about internal geared hubs - the same thing that gives them an effective eternal lifespan also causes a lot of drag - an oil bath.

Savvy owners of Rohloff hub gearboxes don't put in 25ml of oil as instructed in the manual but between 16 and 18ml. In fact, 12-14ml is enough, and is the factory fill, because they calculated that it is enough to give all the gears an adequate coating of lubricant for about twice the specified oil change interval of 3000m/5000km.

There is thus no oil windage from a non-existant "oil bath". Such an oil bath would in any case be impossible with the Rohloff which is not not air or oil or water tight, because if it were, it would be too heavy for bicycle use.

While cross chaining a derailleur system adds some drag, you would normally gear your bike so that you run near the middle range most of the time with very little drag.

In this PDF you will see why I will not be buying an 11-speed group! Nor 10-speed, nor even 9-speed:
"Effects of Lateral Chain Misalignment (Cross-Chaining) on Drivetrain Efficiency & Effects of Chainring Size on Drivetrain Efficiency"
at:
https://www.ceramicspeed.com/media/3...ze-report..pdf

These high-cog-count derailleur groups have too many gear combos anyway; it's no loss if some of them are unusable.

Oil bath drag is forever and in any gear.

There isn't any in a Rohloff.

Andre Jute
Isn't science wonderful?

On 29/12/2019 18.27, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, December 27, 2019 at 5:20:32 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
I came across this very interesting comparison, fully populated
with real-world numbers, between the all-up weight of modern
derailleur transmissions and the Rohloff/Pinion hub gearboxes.
You're in for a few surprises, he
https://www.cyclingabout.com/weight-...rohloff-bikes/



The weight advantage of derailleurs over a Rohloff hub gearbox is worth
about one (1) minute over 100km in mildly hilly country. And that
assumes the derailleur rider does everything perfectly: it is impossible
to fluff a gear change on a Rohloff.

Andre Jute The truth always comes out in the end

I have completely given up worrying about as much as 5 lbs. Though I
would make this comment about internal geared hubs - the same thing
that gives them an effective eternal lifespan also causes a lot of
drag - an oil bath. How much I have never seen tested.

While cross chaining a derailleur system adds some drag, you would
normally gear your bike so that you run near the middle range most of
the time with very little drag. Oil bath drag is forever and in any
gear.

Alfine-11s are *incredibly* draggy as the mercury falls to 0C. It all
seems to happen as it goes below about 7 but those 5 degrees seem to
freeze Shimano oil!

On Tuesday, December 31, 2019 at 9:50:37 AM UTC, Tosspot wrote:
On 29/12/2019 18.27, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, December 27, 2019 at 5:20:32 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
I came across this very interesting comparison, fully populated
with real-world numbers, between the all-up weight of modern
derailleur transmissions and the Rohloff/Pinion hub gearboxes.
You're in for a few surprises, he
https://www.cyclingabout.com/weight-...rohloff-bikes/



The weight advantage of derailleurs over a Rohloff hub gearbox is worth
about one (1) minute over 100km in mildly hilly country. And that
assumes the derailleur rider does everything perfectly: it is impossible
to fluff a gear change on a Rohloff.

Andre Jute The truth always comes out in the end

I have completely given up worrying about as much as 5 lbs. Though I
would make this comment about internal geared hubs - the same thing
that gives them an effective eternal lifespan also causes a lot of
drag - an oil bath. How much I have never seen tested.

While cross chaining a derailleur system adds some drag, you would
normally gear your bike so that you run near the middle range most of
the time with very little drag. Oil bath drag is forever and in any
gear.

Alfine-11s are *incredibly* draggy as the mercury falls to 0C. It all
seems to happen as it goes below about 7 but those 5 degrees seem to
freeze Shimano oil!

Buy the service kit once, then at the beginning of the winter use the oil bath pot that comes with the kit to fill the Alfine with any lighter weight winter oil of your choice.

One normally puts the "all-seasons oil" in the Rohloff, but in a really harsh winter, the lighter weight "cleaning oil" is poured into the hub twice and becomes the operating oil. Seems a smart idea.

Andre Jute
Enough ideas that save ten watts each, and you too can be a fast cyclist

On Sunday, December 29, 2019 at 5:21:33 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
On Sunday, December 29, 2019 at 6:27:18 PM UTC, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, December 27, 2019 at 5:20:32 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
I came across this very interesting comparison, fully populated with real-world numbers, between the all-up weight of modern derailleur transmissions and the Rohloff/Pinion hub gearboxes. You're in for a few surprises, he
https://www.cyclingabout.com/weight-...rohloff-bikes/

The weight advantage of derailleurs over a Rohloff hub gearbox is worth about one (1) minute over 100km in mildly hilly country. And that assumes the derailleur rider does everything perfectly: it is impossible to fluff a gear change on a Rohloff.

Andre Jute
The truth always comes out in the end

I have completely given up worrying about as much as 5 lbs.

A Rohloff adds about one pound, not five.

Though I would make this comment about internal geared hubs - the same thing that gives them an effective eternal lifespan also causes a lot of drag - an oil bath.

Savvy owners of Rohloff hub gearboxes don't put in 25ml of oil as instructed in the manual but between 16 and 18ml. In fact, 12-14ml is enough, and is the factory fill, because they calculated that it is enough to give all the gears an adequate coating of lubricant for about twice the specified oil change interval of 3000m/5000km.

There is thus no oil windage from a non-existant "oil bath". Such an oil bath would in any case be impossible with the Rohloff which is not not air or oil or water tight, because if it were, it would be too heavy for bicycle use.

While cross chaining a derailleur system adds some drag, you would normally gear your bike so that you run near the middle range most of the time with very little drag.

In this PDF you will see why I will not be buying an 11-speed group! Nor 10-speed, nor even 9-speed:
"Effects of Lateral Chain Misalignment (Cross-Chaining) on Drivetrain Efficiency & Effects of Chainring Size on Drivetrain Efficiency"
at:
https://www.ceramicspeed.com/media/3...ize-report.pdf

These high-cog-count derailleur groups have too many gear combos anyway; it's no loss if some of them are unusable.

Oil bath drag is forever and in any gear.

There isn't any in a Rohloff.

Andre Jute
Isn't science wonderful?

Andre - My Basso that I just got back on the road is 4 1/2 lbs heavier than the Colnago. I did a difficult 37 miles climbing ride on Tuesday and my time was no different than on the Colnago. I did a ride yesterday in the middle of the day on a route I normally stop for coffee on. Since I was expecting a call I rode straight through. I hit EVERUY damn light wrong and my average speed was 1/2 mph average less.

So what I was saying is that I'm beginning to believe that unless you're a racer the weight and the aerodynamics, it not taken to extremes means nothing unless you're a professional racer whose milliseconds could make a difference. I don't think that any of us here fall into the professional racer category as much as Jay would like to.

On Friday, January 3, 2020 at 9:09:13 PM UTC, wrote:
On Sunday, December 29, 2019 at 5:21:33 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
On Sunday, December 29, 2019 at 6:27:18 PM UTC, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, December 27, 2019 at 5:20:32 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
I came across this very interesting comparison, fully populated with real-world numbers, between the all-up weight of modern derailleur transmissions and the Rohloff/Pinion hub gearboxes. You're in for a few surprises, he
https://www.cyclingabout.com/weight-...rohloff-bikes/

The weight advantage of derailleurs over a Rohloff hub gearbox is worth about one (1) minute over 100km in mildly hilly country. And that assumes the derailleur rider does everything perfectly: it is impossible to fluff a gear change on a Rohloff.

Andre Jute
The truth always comes out in the end

I have completely given up worrying about as much as 5 lbs.

A Rohloff adds about one pound, not five.

Though I would make this comment about internal geared hubs - the same thing that gives them an effective eternal lifespan also causes a lot of drag - an oil bath.

Savvy owners of Rohloff hub gearboxes don't put in 25ml of oil as instructed in the manual but between 16 and 18ml. In fact, 12-14ml is enough, and is the factory fill, because they calculated that it is enough to give all the gears an adequate coating of lubricant for about twice the specified oil change interval of 3000m/5000km.

There is thus no oil windage from a non-existant "oil bath". Such an oil bath would in any case be impossible with the Rohloff which is not not air or oil or water tight, because if it were, it would be too heavy for bicycle use.

While cross chaining a derailleur system adds some drag, you would normally gear your bike so that you run near the middle range most of the time with very little drag.

In this PDF you will see why I will not be buying an 11-speed group! Nor 10-speed, nor even 9-speed:
"Effects of Lateral Chain Misalignment (Cross-Chaining) on Drivetrain Efficiency & Effects of Chainring Size on Drivetrain Efficiency"
at:
https://www.ceramicspeed.com/media/3...ize-report.pdf

These high-cog-count derailleur groups have too many gear combos anyway; it's no loss if some of them are unusable.

Oil bath drag is forever and in any gear.

There isn't any in a Rohloff.

Andre Jute
Isn't science wonderful?

Andre - My Basso that I just got back on the road is 4 1/2 lbs heavier than the Colnago. I did a difficult 37 miles climbing ride on Tuesday and my time was no different than on the Colnago. I did a ride yesterday in the middle of the day on a route I normally stop for coffee on. Since I was expecting a call I rode straight through. I hit EVERUY damn light wrong and my average speed was 1/2 mph average less.

So what I was saying is that I'm beginning to believe that unless you're a racer the weight and the aerodynamics, it not taken to extremes means nothing unless you're a professional racer whose milliseconds could make a difference. I don't think that any of us here fall into the professional racer category as much as Jay would like to.

I know. I was just putting down a marker because the objection of some people on this forum, and many now gone (no loss), was the ignorant reaction that "the Rohloff is too heavy". Now idiots are coming up with "windage in the oil bath". That's even more ignorant.

I'll tell you something I saw a major improvement on, though it didn't surprise me. It was when I switched from manual gear changes on Shimano's Nexus 8-sp hub gears to the full-auto Di2 and knocked a noticeable chunk off my daily afternoon ride around the same circuit. The reason I wasn't surprised was that I've long been a fan of automatic gearboxes in cars, as far back as when they were little better than slush boxes and only the torque of a big American V8 hid their shortcomings.

Andre Jute
Real men use manual sticks. Real men change gear with derailleurs. Yup, that's a universal truth.