WHY A WATERFORD BIKE IS A JOKE

Peter Chisholm wrote:
[...]
We have sold more than a few of Waterford's Mixte frames to women. Do
you need a step thru for your skirt Andre?

It is clear by now that Mr. Jute needs to justify his choices by
denigrating everything else.

--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
LOCAL CACTUS EATS CYCLIST - datakoll

Andre Jute wrote:
On Apr 25, 5:37 am, landotter wrote:
On Apr 24, 7:45 pm, Andre Jute wrote:

WHY A WATERFORD BIKE IS A JOKE
[drivelsnip]

Ott cut my original so that he could go off into fairyland without
inconvenient facts. Like this one:

Waterford ... do seem a few hundred bux overpriced to
me--but whadda I know?

You shoulda read the post you snipped, Ott. A base Waterford frame is
twenty-two hundreds, $2200 pricier than a top pedigree British bike.
That's not "a few" hundred as you try to pretend. The evidence you cut
is repeated below for your information.
-snip-


$1300 actually:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/WFD08DC2.JPG
full custom, any imaginable color, prompt delivery.

Quite competitive, assuming apples are not oranges

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

-snipity snip-
Chalo wrote:
I got a custom frame from David Bohm after having been referred to him
by Waterford. They refused to make a frame that was proportional
throughout (proportionally longer chainstays and top tube to go along
with taller overall height). I was totally unimpressed about that
from a putative custom framebuilder, but I was glad that they were
willing to make an alternative recommendation.


Some big guys get accommodated :
http://www.gunnarbikes.com/newslette...29-04_ming.jpg

Maybe you should have said 'ni hao' or something?

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Tom Sherman wrote:
:: Peter Chisholm wrote:
::: [...]
::: We have sold more than a few of Waterford's Mixte frames to women.
::: Do you need a step thru for your skirt Andre?
::
:: It is clear by now that Mr. Jute needs to justify his choices by
:: denigrating everything else.
::
:: --
:: Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007

As he does with his opinions. If you disagree, you will be villified. I bet
he never goes to a restaurant! (probably has been thrown out for denigrating
what the other diners have chosen!).

Pat in TX

On Apr 24, 9:35*pm, Andre Jute wrote:
On Apr 25, 4:42*am, RonSonic wrote:





On Fri, 24 Apr 2009 20:23:52 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute wrote:
On Apr 25, 4:05*am, jim beam wrote:
Andre Jute wrote:
I have two aliminium bikes which are both eminently satisfactory
except for one detail: the welding on one is ugly

that's an ignorant jobstian bull**** excuse. *if the mechanicals are
good and the microstructure good, that's all that matters to your
ability to ride the damned thing.

How it it "ignorant" to demand aesthetic satisfaction from the
artifacts one owns. Stop blustering, Jimbo; it makes you sound like a
troll. A Ford gets you there. A Bentley gets you there with a smile on
your face.

Andre Jute
*"The brain of an engineer is a delicate instrument instrument which
must be protected against the unevenness of the ground." -- Wifredo-
Pelayo Ricart Medina

yeah, and the brains of non-engineers need boiling in brine and vinegar
sometimes.

Especially the zero-aesthetic barbarians.

Andre Jute
The Real Thing -- slogan I coined for wool, later used for a fizzy
drink

Original text, in case you want to know, dealt with value for money
and pedigree in steel bikes:

Criticising Waterford as lacking "pedigree" is probably not a real strong
argument.

Nobody accused Waterford of having zero pedigree, Ronni. The problem
is that Waterford just doesn't have the pedigree of say Bob Jackson or
Mercian, but Waterford charges three to five times as much as they do
-- not three to five per cent more, three to five whole multiples.
Holy Moses, i've heard of the last of the big spenders, but Waterford
is the last of the big chargers.

And it isn't just a difference in depth of pedigree that makes
Waterford look so greedy. At Bob Jackson (and possibly at Mercian too,
I can't remember now and there are plenty on RBT to *look it up) you
get a bike without local frame-stresses because it is brazed in an
open hearth for even heating, so there are technical superiorities
too. And the historic connections, for instance Bob Jackson is the
only place where you can get authorized Hetchins wavy chainstays.

I have no connection with Bob Jackson or Mercian, who are both long-
established traditional British bike makers; I normally order my bikes
in the Benelux or Germany.

There are some good bargains to be had with the Mercians even with
shipping, and depending on the exchange rate. As for hearth brazing
and the heat affected zone, modern air hardened steels do not behave
in the same way as 531 or SL/SP. Mercian uses air hardened steels,
starting with Reynolds 631 in its lower priced frames, which
purportedly gains strength in the heat affected zone. The Waterfords
are a whole other animal judging by the website, and some of the
additional cost can be justified by the proprietary tube sets, etc.
Some is obviously hype. I just couldn't bring myself to spend that
kind of dough on a steel frame, particullarly since in my size
(63-64cm), steel frame just looks so leggy to me now that my aesthetic
has adjusted to OS aluminum. I also don't know if modern steels are
all that repairable, but I leave that up to the experts to declare.
If not, it sort of undercuts one of the major claimed benefits of
steel. -- Jay Beattie.

Jay Beattie wrote:
On Apr 24, 9:35�pm, Andre Jute wrote:
On Apr 25, 4:42�am, RonSonic wrote:





On Fri, 24 Apr 2009 20:23:52 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute wrote:
On Apr 25, 4:05�am, jim beam wrote:
Andre Jute wrote:
I have two aliminium bikes which are both eminently satisfactory
except for one detail: the welding on one is ugly
that's an ignorant jobstian bull**** excuse. �if the mechanicals are
good and the microstructure good, that's all that matters to your
ability to ride the damned thing.
How it it "ignorant" to demand aesthetic satisfaction from the
artifacts one owns. Stop blustering, Jimbo; it makes you sound like a
troll. A Ford gets you there. A Bentley gets you there with a smile on
your face.
Andre Jute
�"The brain of an engineer is a delicate instrument instrument which
must be protected against the unevenness of the ground." -- Wifredo-
Pelayo Ricart Medina
yeah, and the brains of non-engineers need boiling in brine and vinegar
sometimes.
Especially the zero-aesthetic barbarians.
Andre Jute
The Real Thing -- slogan I coined for wool, later used for a fizzy
drink
Original text, in case you want to know, dealt with value for money
and pedigree in steel bikes:
Criticising Waterford as lacking "pedigree" is probably not a real strong
argument.
Nobody accused Waterford of having zero pedigree, Ronni. The problem
is that Waterford just doesn't have the pedigree of say Bob Jackson or
Mercian, but Waterford charges three to five times as much as they do
-- not three to five per cent more, three to five whole multiples.
Holy Moses, i've heard of the last of the big spenders, but Waterford
is the last of the big chargers.

And it isn't just a difference in depth of pedigree that makes
Waterford look so greedy. At Bob Jackson (and possibly at Mercian too,
I can't remember now and there are plenty on RBT to �look it up) you
get a bike without local frame-stresses because it is brazed in an
open hearth for even heating, so there are technical superiorities
too. And the historic connections, for instance Bob Jackson is the
only place where you can get authorized Hetchins wavy chainstays.

I have no connection with Bob Jackson or Mercian, who are both long-
established traditional British bike makers; I normally order my bikes
in the Benelux or Germany.

There are some good bargains to be had with the Mercians even with
shipping, and depending on the exchange rate. As for hearth brazing
and the heat affected zone, modern air hardened steels do not behave
in the same way as 531 or SL/SP. Mercian uses air hardened steels,
starting with Reynolds 631 in its lower priced frames, which
purportedly gains strength in the heat affected zone. The Waterfords
are a whole other animal judging by the website, and some of the
additional cost can be justified by the proprietary tube sets, etc.
Some is obviously hype. I just couldn't bring myself to spend that
kind of dough on a steel frame, particullarly since in my size
(63-64cm), steel frame just looks so leggy to me now that my aesthetic
has adjusted to OS aluminum. I also don't know if modern steels are
all that repairable, but I leave that up to the experts to declare.
If not, it sort of undercuts one of the major claimed benefits of
steel. -- Jay Beattie.

they're repairable just like prior steels. but the cost/benefit isn't
there.

o/s aluminum all the way for me.

On Sat, 25 Apr 2009 02:24:48 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute wrote:

On Apr 25, 7:58*am, RonSonic wrote:
On Fri, 24 Apr 2009 21:02:03 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute wrote:
On Apr 25, 4:34*am, RonSonic wrote:
On Fri, 24 Apr 2009 19:44:44 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute wrote:

(p.s to Carl: tape, double bumpers, saddle angle etc were
explicitly specified in great detail.)

Bumpers? (Sorry, sorry, sorry, I know, TGIF and you're trying to get
to the pub.) But Sheldon doesn't have bumpers in the glossary. -- AJ

I'd think that being so sophisticated that you deem one of the finer makes a
joke

Let's refine that for you. The Godiva is misnamed (not a mixte) and is
dull, and the entire Waterford price list is a joke. Nothing can
justify charging several multiples of the prices of fine bicycle
makers like Mercian or Bob Jackson. Even if Waterford could brag the
same pedigree, which it can't, ever, the Waterford price list would
still be obscene.

But you know, Ronni, this thread wouldn't have happened if Seaton
didn't decide to slap me in the face with the Godiva. Weren't you the
one telling us yesterday that Seaton would get away with it? Did you
really expect me to let it go?

Some guy on the interwebs mocks your bike and you try to shut him up by writing
a tantrum about some company that has nothing whatever to do with any of this.
Please, explain how that works. Or will you just get revenge by typing something
mean about Verizon?

I really don't understand what you're on about, Ronni. You're spouting
off conspiracy theories ("revenge"!) and you haven't even read the
original post about which you're spouting off, which answers all you
questions. Just in case you have, and your attention span let you
down, I answer your questions in easily digestible numbered form:

1. I didn't choose Waterford. Seaton chose Waterford as the reference.

2. I didn't choose the Godiva. Seaton chose the Godiva as the
reference.

3. I didn't choose Waterford's pricing as the decisive element. Seaton
and a whole bunch of hypocritical RBT clowns chose Waterford's pricing
as the reference by their repeated remarks about the price of my
German bike.

4. I looked into Waterford before and at that time merely said I
considered their bikes too much money for too little value and excused
myself.

5. But when Waterford is publicly held up to me as the paragon of
virtue against which I should measure my choices, as Seaton did, and
I'm abused for not measuring up, then I go look hard to see if
Waterford measures up.

6. Waterford doesn't measure up to their own prices. Their Godiva
certainly doesn't even measure up to the hubs of any of my bikes, or
of Bob Jackson or Mercian, or of any of the Dutch and Swiss baukasten
bikes I considered. Waterford prices are a joke, precisely as I said.

7. I've known this all along but said nothing, as is my practice about
commercial firms, until they or their partisans put themselves in my
face. Seaton put Waterford in my face like a wet fish.

8. It isn't my problem if Waterford's boosters are incompetents who
don't check their facts before they spout off in public. I'm just
correction their wrong assumptions and grossly wrong conclusions.

9. Waterford got a very fair deal from me, a comparison of like for
like. In fact it is flattering Waterford to compare their bikes with
the likes of Utopia, Patria, Bob Jackson and Mercian. Waterford really
belongs a step or two lower, with the common or garden bikes, against
which they would look even more overpriced.

You should do your homework, Ronni, before you write in with
conspiratorial rubbish like "revenge". At a minimum you should read
the thread and discover who chose the references.

Somebody on the interwebz makes fun of your girlie bike and you respond by
ranting at a company that has nothing to do with any of this. When this is
pointed out to you you go off on another typing tantrum to justify it.

Even worse, the specifics of your criticism more or less prove that you don't
know enough to compare these products, much less declare one of them "a joke."

Jute, you're acting like a flake.

Again.

On Sat, 25 Apr 2009 02:52:49 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute wrote:

On Apr 25, 9:38*am, Chalo wrote:
Andre Jute wrote:

The Godiva is misnamed (not a mixte) and is
dull, and the entire Waterford price list is a joke. Nothing can
justify charging several multiples of the prices of fine bicycle
makers like Mercian or Bob Jackson. Even if Waterford could brag the
same pedigree, which it can't, ever, the Waterford price list would
still be obscene.

Waterford Precision is the continuation of Schwinn's Paramount
handbuilt frame operation, and as such is in command of as much
cycling pedigree as our broad continent offers.

When I was looking last year, I was more impressed with the individual
bike makers in the States, a handful of whom are doing truly
innovative work. (I found the vast majority depressing, but that is to
be expected;

Yes, your admitted ignorance of bicycles and the design thereof would certainly
lead you to not understand what is new or interesting or extraordinary. But
that's the usual for you, claim expertise until you stick your foot in it and
then demand consideration for yourself as a humble beginner.

That's exactly why they can ask and receive the prices they do-- not
that they'll be getting any business from me personally.

Mmm. There are pedigrees and pedigrees.

And the Waterford pedigree stands with any.

I got a custom frame from David Bohm after having been referred to him
by Waterford. *They refused to make a frame that was proportional
throughout (proportionally longer chainstays and top tube to go along
with taller overall height). *I was totally unimpressed about that
from a putative custom framebuilder, but I was glad that they were
willing to make an alternative recommendation.

I had the same experience with the British custom builders, though
admittedly I wanted something quite a bite more uncommon than you did.
Their promise, explicit or implicit, of building anything you want to
pay for doesn't stand up past a garish paintjob. What they really want
to build is what they built before, and preferably what they already
have tubes for in their racks.

How about something more like "a frame type with which they have no experience
cannot be guaranteed to meet expectations at a reasonable price and even at an
unreasonable price, we are unwilling to turn the client into a beta tester."

Having experience in designing and building custom products, I can tell you that
while experimentation in unfamiliar lines can be enjoyable and offer future
benefits, it doesn't pay the bills. The necessary experimentation and R&D must
be paid for, either by the present client or the builder as an investment in a
future product offering. Exorbitantly expensive girlie bikes being such a small
niche, I'm not surprised you had difficulty finding a builder.

People who build custom products eventually learn better than to experiment on a
paying customer unless that customer already has a solid relationship with the
company, is knowledgeable enough to provide useful feedback, is mainstream
enough to provide feedback that will be useful in future cases and who
understands the whole project may result in disappointment. Even then it is
risky. Sorry, you either get a variation on a theme or an adaptation from prior
art.

For their ability to match tubing grades, thicknesses, frame geometry, fitments
and tubing manipulations, join it beautifully and soundly whether with lug,
fillet braze or tig, so that the whole is a coherent, elegant and functional
work perfectly suited to the rider, having you reduce it to a "garish paintjob"
is unfair.

I don't even know those guys, I don't buy, build or own any custom frames and
still I bristle to see some ignorant yahoo with delusions like yourself insult
their craft.

"Complaining about things you don't know about," used to be a private vice -
thanks to the interwebs you can inflict your ignorance on multitudes.

AMuzi wrote:

Chalo wrote:

I got a custom frame from David Bohm after having been referred to him
by Waterford. *They refused to make a frame that was proportional
throughout (proportionally longer chainstays and top tube to go along
with taller overall height). *I was totally unimpressed about that
from a putative custom framebuilder, but I was glad that they were
willing to make an alternative recommendation.

Some big guys get accommodated :http://www.gunnarbikes.com/newslette...29-04_ming.jpg

Maybe you should have said 'ni hao' or something?

Would you ride a bike proportioned like that? Look at the
relationship of saddle to rear hub, for instance. That's an example
of what I was trying to avoid-- even though it is without doubt a
remarkable piece of work.

Chalo

Chalo wrote:
I got a custom frame from David Bohm after having been referred to him
by Waterford. They refused to make a frame that was proportional
throughout (proportionally longer chainstays and top tube to go along
with taller overall height). I was totally unimpressed about that
from a putative custom framebuilder, but I was glad that they were
willing to make an alternative recommendation.

AMuzi wrote:
Some big guys get accommodated :http://www.gunnarbikes.com/newslette...29-04_ming.jpg
Maybe you should have said 'ni hao' or something?

Chalo wrote:
Would you ride a bike proportioned like that? Look at the
relationship of saddle to rear hub, for instance. That's an example
of what I was trying to avoid-- even though it is without doubt a
remarkable piece of work.

As a matter of fact, I would not. I'm 'medium Italian' (I
ride everyone's sample size!)

I just recalled that photo as an impressive piece.

And I'm surely not an expert; I often defer to Waterford (or
Zinn) for the tall realm (up to about 65cm I could advise
with reasonable experience)

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971