MTB disc brake caused wild fire

On 2018-03-30 08:42, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, March 30, 2018 at 8:03:12 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-03-30 07:08, jbeattie wrote:


[...]

Story time: I was born and raised in California and raced NorCal
and used to ride a lot with a guy from Vancouver, Washington. He
would step out from his apartment, look up and say "another nice
day." I didn't know what he was taking about until I moved to
Portland. He would go to Portland every year at Fourth of July
for the races at Alpenrose.
https://www.bicycleattorney.com/img/...015-oregon.jpg


He would come back and tell me that it rained. WTF? In July? We
were cooking in July.

Anyway, even in the Central Valley you can get some epic rain
storms, and in Joergville, maybe a dusting of snow now and then
and some rain. It is, however, a dry climate.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnBoGhNWXx4


Nah, this is the real Cameron Park:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fu7DULHr738
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhKoIsNda8s

I've flown in there with my brother a few times -- it's a quick spin
from STS and Santa Rosa. I could not imagine living near an airstrip,
however.

You better visit St. George before moving. It's the moon compared to
the Sierra foothills.


Yes, I'd have to re-visit. We used to hike a lot in Utah when we were
younger. It's not the moon, just different. Vegetation is often thin and
low but you have endless trails. In the rocky areas you can pretty much
point yourself in a certain direction and just go. Until you reach some
cliff and then a gorgeous view opens.

One major advantage in Southern Utah is that almost nothing grows.
Meaning much less weed pulling than here. My ideal backyard consists of
sand, a rock and a cactus. The cactus is optional.


... If I were you, I'd go to Europe -- one of
those, warm picturesque places around the Mediterranean. No strip
malls.


With a corrupt leftist government, profligate spending and
correspondingly painful taxes? No thanks. I'd prefer something in the
Caribbean anyhow. However, no matter the new destination that would
usually require learning a new language. Not a problem for me but my
wife wouldn't like that.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 2018-03-30 10:31, wrote:
On Friday, March 30, 2018 at 5:03:12 PM UTC+2, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-03-30 07:08, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, March 29, 2018 at 11:09:37 PM UTC-7,
wrote:
On Friday, March 30, 2018 at 1:41:51 AM UTC+2, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-03-29 14:32, AMuzi wrote:
On 3/29/2018 4:19 PM, wrote:
On Thursday, March 29, 2018 at 9:47:20 PM UTC+2, Joerg
wrote:
On 2018-03-29 12:25, wrote:
On Thursday, March 29, 2018 at 4:09:07 PM UTC+2,
Joerg wrote:
On 2018-03-28 20:28, James wrote:
On 28/03/18 01:39, Joerg wrote:


Hydraulics also can suffer from sudden fade
and that's scary. Then they require bleeding
which, depending on the kind, is a messy
business. On mine particularly so because there
is no bleed kit for them. Cable disc brakes are
fine for pavement riding, just not for heavy
duty MTB riding.


With the use of a few hose clamps, a file that
is harder than tool steel, nails and rocks, I'm
sure you could build a front wheel for your MTB
using a motorcycle front hub, disc brake and
lever.


After upgrading to 8" rotors front and back I am
quite pleased with the brake performance of my MTB.
The bleeding is messy but only needs to be done
about once a year and takes 1/2h.



Once a year? Why?


Because after about a year the lever for the rear
brake starts feeling soft. Braking is still fine and
most other riders just leave it like that but I like
the pressure point nice and hard. Also, the slightest
amount of air in the line near the caliper can cause a
brake failure on a long downhill which here in the
hills is not cool.


Never bleed my brakes on my cross bike for 4 years now
and they feel like they did on day 1. Shimano must be
doing something right.

Says the guy riding in Nederlands where there are no
mountain lions. Of course they work for you.


There are also no hills and dirt and stuff, or having to
ride through rivers. My MTB brake calipers regularly reach a
state where you can't even seem them anymore.

The guys using Shimano out here need to bleed them as well,
except they can't use the DOT4 fluid from the garage
cabinet.

-- Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

As I said they are on my crossbike which see more mud and dirt
you can image. And lots of steep short up and downhills. In
total I spent 3 months in California during my trips. Never had
a day of rain, some drizzle/fog in San Francisco...


Where do you take your CX bike? Eastern Belgium? Or to the Alps?


Just in my backyard, most of the time just across the German border.
Once in a while I make a clip of our ride. You can download (it is
save) a clip of a typical sunday morning winter ride here

https://we.tl/6awaXeHLBp


That's not a lot of dirt, just wee mud puddles on a meandering forest
path. Also, it's totally flat so you won't experience what I did when I
rode an MTB with rim brakes: Muddy trail like yours but downhill.
Reached in, nothing, only horrid sandpaper sounds, sharp turn with cliff
approaching fast. I almost needed a bathroom after that. This simply
does not happen with disc brakes.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 2018-03-30 09:22, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/30/2018 10:27 AM, Joerg wrote:

Disc brakes afford a substantial increase in safety. I tend to adopt
things that increase safety, no matter where.

I doubt that. There are literally thousands of things a person could
possibly do to increase their "safety." Do you wear your bike helmet
when walking in the city, or when driving your car? Do you have six-foot
high flippy flags on your bikes?


I found an orange phone line indicator flag on a wire in the road
yesterday. Since the wire could puncture a tire I picked it up. I had a
flippy flag!


... Do you always wear elbow and knee pads?
Have you thrown away all sharp knives in your home? Did you remove the
stairs in your home and install elevators?


There is a difference between reasonable effort and paranoia.


Again: There are always detriments as well as benefits. Yes, the
marketers and those proselytizing for their own choices go to great
length to overstate dangers and overstate benefits. Others are less
easily duped.

I'll put the latest "visibility" study in a separate thread.


The visibility issue I have solved years ago. MagicShine clones and
bright LED backlights. That's not difficult.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 2018-03-30 16:56, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 30 Mar 2018 07:19:42 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2018-03-30 02:04, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 29 Mar 2018 16:44:58 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2018-03-29 14:34, Roger Merriman wrote:
sms wrote:
On 3/27/2018 7:39 AM, Joerg wrote:

Hydraulics also can suffer from sudden fade and that's scary. Then they
require bleeding which, depending on the kind, is a messy business. On
mine particularly so because there is no bleed kit for them. Cable disc
brakes are fine for pavement riding, just not for heavy duty MTB riding.

Avoid hydraulic disc brakes at all costs. Stick to mechanical disc brakes.



Which require constant adjustments as the pads wear, have cables that
weather eats, etc.

All my bikes have disks the CX/gravel/adventure road? Is cable the others
are hydraulic.

The cable is a lot more fuss, the Hydros just work, once set up you feed
them pads which is very easy.

Personally as someone who rides off-road plus high (ish) miles commuting
disks and preferably Hydro are game changers in terms of performance and
maintenance.

In terms of stuff like power, there is quite a overlap between the two, my
gravel bikes cable disks is about as powerful as the old commute MTB with
its older and cheaper Hydro brakes, both are embarrassing weak compared to
my Full suspension MTB.


I recently upgrade to 8" rotors front and back. That was the real game
changer. I can lock up either wheel with one finger and brake response
is prontissimo. Now I no longer have to worry when riding a steep trail
with some cargo in the back.

But I can lock up either, or both, wheels with vee brakes. With one
finger unless I want to lock both wheels which takes two fingers :-)

And, I might add, no requirement for bleeding either.


Now try that again when the rims are wet. With locking up I mean
instantly, tens of milliseconds.

A recent study demonstrated that an auditory stimulus takes 8 - 10 ms
to reach the brain, but on the other hand, a visual stimulus takes
20-40 ms. After the brain recognizes the event it must trigger the
muscles to react. Most texts seem to suggest that a good reaction time
is anywhere between 0.25 seconds and 0.35 seconds. Or 250 - 350
milliseconds. Your 10 millisecond reaction is much quicker then has
been tested in humans.... One can only assume that you are from
Krypton.


Ever heard of the term "muscle memory"?

Anyhow, it doesn't matter. Even if your decision and action takes a
whopping half second and _then_ you pull the brake lever, it does matter
whether the braking occurs instantly or 1-2sec delay _after_ pulling the
lever. If a turn with a cliff is coming up it matters a whole lot.

Rim brakes are something for the dust bin of history just like the old
rubber pads that pushed onto the running surface of the front tire.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 2018-03-29 18:28, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, March 29, 2018 at 5:25:55 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski
wrote:
On 3/29/2018 5:34 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
sms wrote:
On 3/27/2018 7:39 AM, Joerg wrote:

Hydraulics also can suffer from sudden fade and that's scary.
Then they require bleeding which, depending on the kind, is a
messy business. On mine particularly so because there is no
bleed kit for them. Cable disc brakes are fine for pavement
riding, just not for heavy duty MTB riding.

Avoid hydraulic disc brakes at all costs. Stick to mechanical
disc brakes.



Which require constant adjustments as the pads wear, have cables
that weather eats, etc.

All my bikes have disks the CX/gravel/adventure road? Is cable
the others are hydraulic.

The cable is a lot more fuss, the Hydros just work, once set up
you feed them pads which is very easy.

Personally as someone who rides off-road plus high (ish) miles
commuting disks and preferably Hydro are game changers in terms
of performance and maintenance.

In terms of stuff like power, there is quite a overlap between
the two, my gravel bikes cable disks is about as powerful as the
old commute MTB with its older and cheaper Hydro brakes, both are
embarrassing weak compared to my Full suspension MTB.

"Embarrassingly weak" sounds strange to me. Aren't you really
talking about overall mechanical advantage - that is, lever force
vs. braking force?

Practical braking force, especially off-road, is limited by
traction and/or by risk of pitchover. I fail to see why getting
that amount of force from a one pound lever force is better than
getting it from a two pound lever force. I can squeeze a two pound
force all day.

Gads, I'm afraid to ride home on my cable discs, and I might even
ride home on this odd-ball trail:
https://swtrails.files.wordpress.com...er-freeway.jpg


In California might not want to. There'd be a sizeable homeless camp
under there and they might not like it when someone rolls through
"their" turf.


Right under I-5. And adding to the danger, I'll be on rim brakes this
weekend. Eeeeeek!

MTBs are a different deal, and I can see being wedded to hydraulic
discs. And I really do like the hydraulic discs on my road bikes.
Nothing like the smell of mineral oil in the morning. Do I need
hydraulic discs? No. I've ridden all the passes in Joergville,
loaded and unloaded with caliper brakes and cantis -- Monitor,
Ebbetts, Pacific Grade, Luther, Carson, Sonora, Tioga -- almost all
of HWY 49. The Rockies, Cascades -- all them moun-tains across the
US. No runaway train stories. I guess I just lack gnarliness.


On a road bike under regular conditions rim brakes are ok. Not great but
ok. They do become a problem when it's pouring and then, for example, a
guy in a logging truck didn't see you and suddenly accelerates on into
the road. Last time that happened to me it was "only" a pickup truck but
crashing into its side isn't fun either. I was able to stop but barely,
was getting ready to bail.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Op zaterdag 31 maart 2018 16:20:28 UTC+2 schreef Joerg:
On 2018-03-30 10:31, wrote:
On Friday, March 30, 2018 at 5:03:12 PM UTC+2, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-03-30 07:08, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, March 29, 2018 at 11:09:37 PM UTC-7,
wrote:
On Friday, March 30, 2018 at 1:41:51 AM UTC+2, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-03-29 14:32, AMuzi wrote:
On 3/29/2018 4:19 PM, wrote:
On Thursday, March 29, 2018 at 9:47:20 PM UTC+2, Joerg
wrote:
On 2018-03-29 12:25, wrote:
On Thursday, March 29, 2018 at 4:09:07 PM UTC+2,
Joerg wrote:
On 2018-03-28 20:28, James wrote:
On 28/03/18 01:39, Joerg wrote:


Hydraulics also can suffer from sudden fade
and that's scary. Then they require bleeding
which, depending on the kind, is a messy
business. On mine particularly so because there
is no bleed kit for them. Cable disc brakes are
fine for pavement riding, just not for heavy
duty MTB riding.


With the use of a few hose clamps, a file that
is harder than tool steel, nails and rocks, I'm
sure you could build a front wheel for your MTB
using a motorcycle front hub, disc brake and
lever.


After upgrading to 8" rotors front and back I am
quite pleased with the brake performance of my MTB.
The bleeding is messy but only needs to be done
about once a year and takes 1/2h.



Once a year? Why?


Because after about a year the lever for the rear
brake starts feeling soft. Braking is still fine and
most other riders just leave it like that but I like
the pressure point nice and hard. Also, the slightest
amount of air in the line near the caliper can cause a
brake failure on a long downhill which here in the
hills is not cool.


Never bleed my brakes on my cross bike for 4 years now
and they feel like they did on day 1. Shimano must be
doing something right.

Says the guy riding in Nederlands where there are no
mountain lions. Of course they work for you.


There are also no hills and dirt and stuff, or having to
ride through rivers. My MTB brake calipers regularly reach a
state where you can't even seem them anymore.

The guys using Shimano out here need to bleed them as well,
except they can't use the DOT4 fluid from the garage
cabinet.

-- Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

As I said they are on my crossbike which see more mud and dirt
you can image. And lots of steep short up and downhills. In
total I spent 3 months in California during my trips. Never had
a day of rain, some drizzle/fog in San Francisco...


Where do you take your CX bike? Eastern Belgium? Or to the Alps?


Just in my backyard, most of the time just across the German border.
Once in a while I make a clip of our ride. You can download (it is
save) a clip of a typical sunday morning winter ride here

https://we.tl/6awaXeHLBp


That's not a lot of dirt, just wee mud puddles on a meandering forest
path. Also, it's totally flat so you won't experience what I did when I
rode an MTB with rim brakes: Muddy trail like yours but downhill.
Reached in, nothing, only horrid sandpaper sounds, sharp turn with cliff
approaching fast. I almost needed a bathroom after that. This simply
does not happen with disc brakes.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Not unusual:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/0KviHxMzDlHsok3H3

Lou

On 3/31/2018 9:16 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-03-30 08:42, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, March 30, 2018 at 8:03:12 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-03-30 07:08, jbeattie wrote:


[...]

Story time: I was born and raised in California and
raced NorCal
and used to ride a lot with a guy from Vancouver,
Washington. He
would step out from his apartment, look up and say
"another nice
day." I didn't know what he was taking about until I
moved to
Portland. He would go to Portland every year at Fourth
of July
for the races at Alpenrose.
https://www.bicycleattorney.com/img/...015-oregon.jpg



He would come back and tell me that it rained. WTF? In
July? We
were cooking in July.

Anyway, even in the Central Valley you can get some epic
rain
storms, and in Joergville, maybe a dusting of snow now
and then
and some rain. It is, however, a dry climate.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnBoGhNWXx4


Nah, this is the real Cameron Park:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fu7DULHr738
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhKoIsNda8s

I've flown in there with my brother a few times -- it's a
quick spin
from STS and Santa Rosa. I could not imagine living near
an airstrip,
however.

You better visit St. George before moving. It's the moon
compared to
the Sierra foothills.


Yes, I'd have to re-visit. We used to hike a lot in Utah
when we were younger. It's not the moon, just different.
Vegetation is often thin and low but you have endless
trails. In the rocky areas you can pretty much point
yourself in a certain direction and just go. Until you reach
some cliff and then a gorgeous view opens.

One major advantage in Southern Utah is that almost nothing
grows. Meaning much less weed pulling than here. My ideal
backyard consists of sand, a rock and a cactus. The cactus
is optional.


... If I were you, I'd go to Europe -- one of
those, warm picturesque places around the Mediterranean.
No strip
malls.


With a corrupt leftist government, profligate spending and
correspondingly painful taxes? No thanks. I'd prefer
something in the Caribbean anyhow. However, no matter the
new destination that would usually require learning a new
language. Not a problem for me but my wife wouldn't like that.


Where the voters demand kiddy paths to nowhere, the taxpayer
must be punished.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 3/31/2018 10:23 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-03-30 09:22, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/30/2018 10:27 AM, Joerg wrote:

Disc brakes afford a substantial increase in safety. I tend to adopt
things that increase safety, no matter where.

I doubt that. There are literally thousands of things a person could
possibly do to increase their "safety." Do you wear your bike helmet
when walking in the city, or when driving your car? Do you have six-foot
high flippy flags on your bikes?


I found an orange phone line indicator flag on a wire in the road
yesterday. Since the wire could puncture a tire I picked it up. I had a
flippy flag!


Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* ... Do you always wear elbow and knee pads?
Have you thrown away all sharp knives in your home? Did you remove the
stairs in your home and install elevators?


There is a difference between reasonable effort and paranoia.

Indeed there is, Joerg. Indeed there is.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Saturday, March 31, 2018 at 8:03:54 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-03-29 18:28, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, March 29, 2018 at 5:25:55 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski
wrote:
On 3/29/2018 5:34 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
sms wrote:
On 3/27/2018 7:39 AM, Joerg wrote:

Hydraulics also can suffer from sudden fade and that's scary.
Then they require bleeding which, depending on the kind, is a
messy business. On mine particularly so because there is no
bleed kit for them. Cable disc brakes are fine for pavement
riding, just not for heavy duty MTB riding.

Avoid hydraulic disc brakes at all costs. Stick to mechanical
disc brakes.



Which require constant adjustments as the pads wear, have cables
that weather eats, etc.

All my bikes have disks the CX/gravel/adventure road? Is cable
the others are hydraulic.

The cable is a lot more fuss, the Hydros just work, once set up
you feed them pads which is very easy.

Personally as someone who rides off-road plus high (ish) miles
commuting disks and preferably Hydro are game changers in terms
of performance and maintenance.

In terms of stuff like power, there is quite a overlap between
the two, my gravel bikes cable disks is about as powerful as the
old commute MTB with its older and cheaper Hydro brakes, both are
embarrassing weak compared to my Full suspension MTB.

"Embarrassingly weak" sounds strange to me. Aren't you really
talking about overall mechanical advantage - that is, lever force
vs. braking force?

Practical braking force, especially off-road, is limited by
traction and/or by risk of pitchover. I fail to see why getting
that amount of force from a one pound lever force is better than
getting it from a two pound lever force. I can squeeze a two pound
force all day.

Gads, I'm afraid to ride home on my cable discs, and I might even
ride home on this odd-ball trail:
https://swtrails.files.wordpress.com...er-freeway.jpg


In California might not want to. There'd be a sizeable homeless camp
under there and they might not like it when someone rolls through
"their" turf.

I rode home up this trail: http://fot.delaris.com/images/upload...ail__large.jpg It's f****** steep -- steeper than it looks, and it narrows. I stalled out near the top and got stuck on a section with a little leafy cliff to the left. I had to scooter to a place where I could swing my leg over the saddle. That's the problem with CX bikes and high BBs. I was also on semi-slicks, and I was probably not supposed to be on the trail in the first place. One gets bored with the usual routes home and does stupid things.

The homeless people are back in the woods but more on the actual paved bike paths. I attempted to ride home on this trail (from the bottom up) and ran into a bunch of camp sites. https://www.brokenandcoastal.com/jou...w-natural-area This is almost in my back yard and was open to bikes when it was privately owned (by the same folks who built my neighborhood in the '50s). The City bought it and banned bikes because (drum roll), too many cars at the trail head in the neighborhood. The neighbors were complaining. I used to ride it on my CX bike. Great practice riding over root pots.

-- Jay Beattie.

On 2018-03-31 08:34, AMuzi wrote:
On 3/31/2018 9:16 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-03-30 08:42, jbeattie wrote:

[...]


... If I were you, I'd go to Europe -- one of
those, warm picturesque places around the Mediterranean.
No strip
malls.


With a corrupt leftist government, profligate spending and
correspondingly painful taxes? No thanks. I'd prefer
something in the Caribbean anyhow. However, no matter the
new destination that would usually require learning a new
language. Not a problem for me but my wife wouldn't like that.


Where the voters demand kiddy paths to nowhere, the taxpayer must be
punished.


Only some demand that and those are generally the same bleeding heart
folks who support a bullet train to nowhere.

Most don't. They want bike paths where it makes sense. For example, when
a highway gets built and there is a sign that no bicycles are allowed on
it. When a right-of-way gets taken away it is very normal to demand a
replacement.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/