Today's reading: Comparisons of danger

On Wed, 29 May 2019 18:18:26 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie
wrote:

On Wednesday, May 29, 2019 at 3:54:35 PM UTC-7, John B. Slocomb wrote:
snip

Actually, my usual term is "urban cowboy" not "red neck," and the part about PUs is a statistical fact -- at least where I ride in Clackamas County. It got to the point where I was wondering if there was something in the Ford F-XXX owner's manual requiring the owner to f*** with cyclists as a condition of warranty coverage. And it has nothing to do with whether a person is "as good as me." It's about whether they're trying to kill me.


Actually I seem to remember that you did use the term "Red Neck", or
was it "Red Neck Country". And the "fact" that pickup trucks are
trying to kill you? Well, if someone is trying to kill you than they
must be breaking the law (even in the Wild West) so you obviously have
the right to defend yourself, or at the very least have toe right to
protection by law officers. So buy a gun, or perhaps the local police
could escort you on your rides to protect you from the fierce and
deadly pickup trucks.

I often use the term banjo, pin-head or mullet region. Not so much red neck.

Or perhaps this is all a perceived danger... which might be more
accurately described as "all in one's mind".

Pfff. It's not all in ones mind when the truck stops, the driver throws the truck into reverse, stomps the accelerator and starts burning rubber going backwards. Meanwhile, I'm sprinting towards the truck because I've had enough. My 6'6" 200lb son is freaking out because he thinks I'm going to get killed. Come on, boy, look big!

But, as SMS noted, you don't worry about the people with nice trucks -- and this one was spotless and expensive. It took off as I approached. I let my son know that I would NOT chase-down a beater owned by some dope with nothing to lose -- not unless I'm armed.

And going further back in time, the same truck about ran me down, so I yelled at the driver -- which prompted the display of mechanical macho.

There is no mistaking drivers who are trying to f*** with you. The screaming, honking, swerving, etc. is unmistakable. It happens -- not a lot, but more often in certain neighboring county. So why ride there? It's really pretty, particularly when you get up to the forest roads. https://ridewithgps.com/photos/1135735/large.jpg

All I can say is I can't remember any such acts when I lived in the
U.S. Have y'all really turned into such a bunch of evil, fanatical,
beings in the last 50 years?


BTW, other nightmare cars lately are Range Rovers and Mini Coopers with bicycle license plates (who believe they can fit through any space). My complete list is available on Consumer Reports.

Perhaps you might post a list of the automobiles that do not attack
you, or at least, that you do not perceive to be threatening.

I've had good luck with Subarus. I don't perceive any vehicle to be threatening until it is. It's not like I don't ride around cars every day. Ordinary traffic is, well, ordinary -- and it is the norm. I only complain about the outliers.

-- Jay Beattie.
--

Cheers,

John B.

On Wed, 29 May 2019 19:06:35 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 5/29/2019 5:59 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Wed, 29 May 2019 07:52:47 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 5/29/2019 6:36 AM, jbeattie wrote:

snip

Actually, my usual term is "urban cowboy" not "red neck," and the part about PUs is a statistical fact -- at least where I ride in Clackamas County. It got to the point where I was wondering if there was something in the Ford F-XXX owner's manual requiring the owner to f*** with cyclists as a condition of warranty coverage. And it has nothing to do with whether a person is "as good as me." It's about whether they're trying to kill me.

BTW, other nightmare cars lately are Range Rovers and Mini Coopers with bicycle license plates (who believe they can fit through any space). My complete list is available on Consumer Reports.

-- Jay Beattie.


No, the urban cowboy is terrified of scratching their vehicle by hitting
a cyclist. The redneck is not. If they don't qualify as a redneck then
they may be a yahoo.

I recall my first club ride with Western Wheelers and two riders got hit
by a pick-up truck. No real injuries just some scratched helmets and
some minor scrapes, but the driver took off without stopping and was
later arrested. I was a witness and got deposed by the attorneys. There
have been three cyclists killed on that road. Two were killed by a
deputy sheriff who allegedly fell asleep at the wheel. There are
memorials to all them along the road. But it's still a popular cycling
route. It's a county road and they are unlikely to ever widen it enough
to have a paved shoulder.

But this whole "Danger-Danger" schtick is misguided. You can take
anything completely out of context, and Frank is famous for doing this.
The fact is that we all are aware of the dangers of various activities,
yet we still like doing them. We take what steps we can to mitigate the
danger, well aware that there is still an element of risk that is beyond
our control. But we generally don't have to legislate these mitigations
unless we are endangering others.

Interesting. As I have mentioned, I have ridden in a number of foreign
countries, as well as the U.S. (Southern California) and I can't say
that I have ever experienced the horrors that you so lovingly
describe.

Have USians really become so ferocious that they see a bicycle and
immediately attack?


Goes both ways:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...hases-off.html


It appears that Taxi Drivers don't drive pickups and bicycle riders
are thieves.
--

Cheers,

John B.

On 29/05/2019 9:18 p.m., jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, May 29, 2019 at 3:54:35 PM UTC-7, John B. Slocomb wrote:
snip

Actually, my usual term is "urban cowboy" not "red neck," and the part about PUs is a statistical fact -- at least where I ride in Clackamas County. It got to the point where I was wondering if there was something in the Ford F-XXX owner's manual requiring the owner to f*** with cyclists as a condition of warranty coverage. And it has nothing to do with whether a person is "as good as me." It's about whether they're trying to kill me.


Actually I seem to remember that you did use the term "Red Neck", or
was it "Red Neck Country". And the "fact" that pickup trucks are
trying to kill you? Well, if someone is trying to kill you than they
must be breaking the law (even in the Wild West) so you obviously have
the right to defend yourself, or at the very least have toe right to
protection by law officers. So buy a gun, or perhaps the local police
could escort you on your rides to protect you from the fierce and
deadly pickup trucks.

I often use the term banjo, pin-head or mullet region. Not so much red neck.

In south Louisiana the rednecks in the north of the state are called
crackers. Thanks to Huey, some of them have infiltrated the city.
Every man a king.


Or perhaps this is all a perceived danger... which might be more
accurately described as "all in one's mind".

Pfff. It's not all in ones mind when the truck stops, the driver throws the truck into reverse, stomps the accelerator and starts burning rubber going backwards. Meanwhile, I'm sprinting towards the truck because I've had enough. My 6'6" 200lb son is freaking out because he thinks I'm going to get killed. Come on, boy, look big!


Did you forget to turn on the cloaking device? Not much else protects
against assholes.

But, as SMS noted, you don't worry about the people with nice trucks -- and this one was spotless and expensive. It took off as I approached. I let my son know that I would NOT chase-down a beater owned by some dope with nothing to lose -- not unless I'm armed.

And going further back in time, the same truck about ran me down, so I yelled at the driver -- which prompted the display of mechanical macho.

There is no mistaking drivers who are trying to f*** with you. The screaming, honking, swerving, etc. is unmistakable. It happens -- not a lot, but more often in certain neighboring county. So why ride there? It's really pretty, particularly when you get up to the forest roads. https://ridewithgps.com/photos/1135735/large.jpg

We have a few towns outside of Montreal that we have to go through to
get anywhere off island. Not much choice. They see a lot of cyclists
because of the nice area and hills, decent roads etc. and there are
assholes that don't like cyclists. I guess we clog up their roads.

Though I'm not sure the assholes are limited to PU drivers. I've had
soccer mom looking people in SUVs try to push me off the road. That was
an extreme case. Normally it's just an asshole that doesn't want to
wait 4 seconds to see that it's clear around the turn or over the rise
for him to pass so he cuts halfway into us and halfway into the other
lane anyway. Assholes are assholes.


BTW, other nightmare cars lately are Range Rovers and Mini Coopers with bicycle license plates (who believe they can fit through any space). My complete list is available on Consumer Reports.

Perhaps you might post a list of the automobiles that do not attack
you, or at least, that you do not perceive to be threatening.

I've had good luck with Subarus. I don't perceive any vehicle to be threatening until it is. It's not like I don't ride around cars every day. Ordinary traffic is, well, ordinary -- and it is the norm. I only complain about the outliers.


When I lived in Boston, it was Saabs.

On Thu, 30 May 2019 08:47:36 -0400, Duane
wrote:

On 29/05/2019 9:18 p.m., jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, May 29, 2019 at 3:54:35 PM UTC-7, John B. Slocomb wrote:
snip

Actually, my usual term is "urban cowboy" not "red neck," and the part about PUs is a statistical fact -- at least where I ride in Clackamas County. It got to the point where I was wondering if there was something in the Ford F-XXX owner's manual requiring the owner to f*** with cyclists as a condition of warranty coverage. And it has nothing to do with whether a person is "as good as me." It's about whether they're trying to kill me.


Actually I seem to remember that you did use the term "Red Neck", or
was it "Red Neck Country". And the "fact" that pickup trucks are
trying to kill you? Well, if someone is trying to kill you than they
must be breaking the law (even in the Wild West) so you obviously have
the right to defend yourself, or at the very least have toe right to
protection by law officers. So buy a gun, or perhaps the local police
could escort you on your rides to protect you from the fierce and
deadly pickup trucks.

I often use the term banjo, pin-head or mullet region. Not so much red neck.

In south Louisiana the rednecks in the north of the state are called
crackers. Thanks to Huey, some of them have infiltrated the city.
Every man a king.

:-) When I lived in N. Louisiana (Shreveport) it seemed like most of
the people I knew driving pickups owned an offshore drilling rig, or
100 acres of cotton, or a square mile of oil wells, or something like
that.

But maybe I hung around with the wrong crowd :-)

--

Cheers,

John B.

On Wednesday, May 29, 2019 at 3:28:55 PM UTC-7, sms wrote:
On 5/28/2019 10:54 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:

snip

In fact I see it right here. You, for one, and Jay, and several others
classifying others as "Red Necks" and talking about "Red Neck
Country". Implying. it seems, that anyone "like that" is somehow not
as good as we are. Yup, Red Necks, they drive a pickup :-)

Lots of people drive pickups and don't throw objects at cyclists or try
to run them off the road. But if you look at the definition of redneck
then Jay was accurate: "Redneck is a derogatory term chiefly but not
exclusively applied to white Americans perceived to be crass and
unsophisticated." Maybe it is stereotyping, but I've never had an Asian,
Black, or Latino person throw things at me from their vehicle, whether a
pickup or not, regardless of their level of education.

snip

Living abroad I've been invited to any number of weddings, parties,
funerals, etc., where I was an oddity. And yes it does make you feel
sort of funny about being "the only one here". (although after I
stopped drinking I've felt much the same way at some get-to-gathers of
my peers).

You don't have to live abroad to experience that. In my city we are very
multi-ethnic and there is no majority of any ethnicity. Indian, Chinese,
Japanese, Korean, Vietnamese, Latino, Caucasian. If we disagree about
issues it's not along ethnic lines. Lots of mixed race couples too. In
my run for public office the developer's shills made up a story of me
being anti-Chinese. Thank g-d my wife didn't find out about this!

Then you do not frequent Asian, black or any other minority neighborhoods. This sort of behavior is not common so since minorities are called that for a reason the statistics are smaller.

On Thursday, May 30, 2019 at 12:53:30 AM UTC-7, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Wed, 29 May 2019 12:08:50 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Tuesday, May 28, 2019 at 10:54:14 PM UTC-7, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Tue, 28 May 2019 13:00:48 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 5/27/2019 7:48 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Mon, 27 May 2019 15:33:26 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 5/27/2019 1:43 AM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Sun, 26 May 2019 23:58:59 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 5/26/2019 8:43 PM, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 26 May 2019 19:34:51 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 5/26/2019 7:02 PM, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 26 May 2019 11:26:06 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 5/25/2019 10:34 PM, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 25 May 2019 10:08:31 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie
wrote:


Much deleted

Everyone finds cycling as dangerous as he or she experiences it so you can stop your long essays. They don't change anything. They only make you look pedant.

Lou, the authors of the paper disagree with you. They point out that
propaganda has falsely convinced people that bicycling is dangerous; and
the result is that vast numbers of people _don't_ experience it. They
discuss this in some detail at the end of their paper.

What propaganda? What "vast numbers of people"? A lot of people don't ride in heavy traffic because it sucks -- or because they're lazy or even because they don't like riding around other cyclists. It's not all about perceived danger. Like I've said before, I have some high mileage friends who gave up riding on some roads just because they were unpleasant and stressful.

I know very few people, if any, who legitimately don't ride because of danger or the supposed danger propaganda. Most of the people who talk to me in the elevator about it being too dangerous to ride have a doughnut in one hand and a double-tall caramel machiato with whipped cream in the other. You could put in an elevated cycling tube from their homes, and they would find some other reason for not riding. People who want to ride typically can find a traffic calmed street or bicycle facility to use -- or some other facility where they feel comfortable.

Some roads I ride are dangerous because the locals are plain vicious -- the PU drivers in rural counties who want to make a point by making close passes on shoulderless country roads with ridiculously high speed limits (50-55mph). Riding lane center makes no difference except in terms of how long the honking lasts. No cycling technique makes a difference. Maybe Atavan or a shotgun would make a difference. It is plain unpleasant, and I totally understand riders staying away.

Truly? Are people in the U.S. actually so vicious? To deliberately
pass very closely when passing bicycles?

It happens. Since I started riding more prominently in the lane (away
from the gutter) it's been rare, but it happens.

I think there are several reasons. Some motorists who honestly don't
know that it's a bad practice. Some motorists who honestly don't know
how wide their car is. (Keep in mind, the standards for passing a U.S.
driver's license test are laughably low.)

More often, there are motorists who can't be bothered to delay
themselves for ten seconds. They try to squeeze by even though other
cars prevent safe passing clearance.

The worst are the type Jay describes, who execute a "punishment pass."
They object to a bicyclists using "their" road, and deliberately scare
the cyclist by passing close, often while roaring the engine, honking
the horn, etc.

Again, for me close passes are a rare event. For edge riders, they're
more common. And apparently in some redneck parts of the country they're
more common.

Admittedly I've not been in the U.S. for a long time but I don't
remember it like that at all.

I even lived in what you refer to as "Red Neck" country for quite a
number of years and I actually found the bulk of the "Red Necks to be
quite polite and very friendly. It wasn't all "tobacco road" either.
One bloke that used to come in the shop owned three off-shore drilling
rigs, another "farmed" something like a hundred acres of cotton and
one was a lawyer... who along with his father had one client, the
Gracie More Estate, or some such name. I asked the boss about this
"Gracie More Estate" and he told me it was a cotton plantation where
they found oil.

It sure must have changed.

I'm sure it varies from place to place. And of course, from person to
person.

I recall riding a quiet country road with a young girl who was visiting
us. She had waist-length hair that was blowing out behind her as she rode.

A pickup truck came by with two yelling yokels. The truck swerved toward
her, and the passenger leaned out and apparently tried to grab her hair.
Fortunately he missed.

In that same area, my only other bicycling friend in town - an engineer
at the same plant where I worked - was riding home from work and was
knocked off his bike by a dog. This was at a house he regularly rode by.
Damage was minor (torn pants and a broken watch band, IIRC) but he went
up to the door to complain. The residents said "That's not our dog" even
though he saw it there all the time.

So he rode home and called the local sheriff. The sheriff told him "If I
was you, I'd get my gun and shoot that dog." My friend was a good shot
(we'd done some shooting together) but he declined.

I was quite happy to leave that area.

BTW, since then some fairly large companies have come into that town.
The population has grown quite a lot, and there are cultural amenities
that we couldn't have dreamed of. There's even a pretty active bike club.

Are you shore that you aren't exaggerating? Certainly there are folks
in every community that are, to use a colloquialism, "a horse's-ass"
but when I lived in the U.S. I found the bulk of the folks I met to be
pretty nice folks. And I was either a Yankee or a G.I. for much of the
time, Both apparently 2nd class citizens :-)

Oh, the bulk of folks we met there were nice. But compared to where I
grew up and live now, it seemed to have many more jerks, rednecks,
racists, etc. And as a bonus, there were quite a few who were convinced
the Civil War was just on hold for a while.

As for the Civil War, well, my grandfather was born in 1883 so while
he, himself, didn't experience the civil war certainly his parents did
and would have likely told him about conditions during the war, so I
can only assume that blokes living in the South might well have had
the same experience. Certainly if my Grand dad had told me stories
about Sherman marching through New Hampshire I might have somewhat
less than happy thoughts about "them Yankees".

But I lived in the South, Florida, Georgia, Alabama, Louisiana and
Texas (which isn't really a "Southern" state) and I don't believe that
I ever met anyone who wasn't aware that the Civil War was over and
done with. and yes, I have had people ask me to repeat things as my
"Northern" accent sounded funny to them, but essentially it was not
that different in living in Maine where any "out of state'er" is
considered a foreigner.

When I was first assigned to the Air Base at Bangor, Maine, I had just
gotten back from nearly 10 years in Japan and had no credit rating at
all so bought a house trailer for my wife and I to live in. When I
called a trailer park to see whether there was any space the owner
said he wasn't sure and why didn't I drive out and we'll have a look.

Anyway, I got there and yes there were open spaces and the guy and I
got to chatting and he asked me where I was from and I told him "New
Hampshire" which isn't Maine but close to. He than tells me that he
"doesn't like to rent to those "southern fellows" so he likes to talk
to folks before he agrees to let them into his lot.

That was probably the most blatant example of prejudice that I ever
encountered in the U.S.

I worked in the southern U.S. for years, first as an engineer, then as a
teacher. I saw far more blatant racial prejudice than I've ever seen
anywhere else.

It certainly wasn't everybody. Most people were very nice. But the ones
who expressed their racism did it much more frequently and openly than
I've ever been used to.

True, and I might add that growing up in New Hampshire my only contact
with what are now referred to as "Afro-Americans was the Uncle Remus
stories. The first Afro-American I ever saw was a member of a semi-pro
baseball team that came to town to play against the Town Team when I
was a senior in high school so I certainly had no pre-conceived
notions when I went to Florida to school. When I finished school I
went to work in a small town, Bainbridge, Georgia.

I think that what I noticed the most about what you call "blatant
racial prejudice" was really more a matter of people "knowing" that
"They" really weren't as good as "Us". And let's face it, "They"
weren't really as good as "Us". "They" had little education, had few
marketable skills, and were, generally speaking, less law abiding.

You can argue all you want about "Them" not having a chance, etc., but
the point was at that time "They" really didn't measure up.

I agree that while there certainly were those that "hated"
Afro-Americans simply because they were Afro-Americans but there were
far more, at least among those who I knew, who simply viewed them as a
lower class of people, which was, at the time, just what they were.

I had black friends and students who were certainly not lower class
people, but who regularly endured taunts, snide comments and worse.

Certainly you can find isolated instances that "prove" any "beloved"
point (after all SMS is famous for it) but I can only say that in the
early 1950's the majority of the Afro-Americans in the South were
poorly educated and had few, if any marketable skills other than
following a mule. In fact a large number of them didn't even speak
English well.

In short all the qualities that make any minority easy to assign the
category of "lesser". The song "We want no Irish Here" was written in
the late 1800's and was certainly true at the time. Or (being an
ex-serviceman) Rudyard Kipling's poem "Tommy". Both certainly prove
the point that minority groups are easy to classify as someone that we
don't want to associate with.

In fact I see it right here. You, for one, and Jay, and several others
classifying others as "Red Necks" and talking about "Red Neck
Country". Implying. it seems, that anyone "like that" is somehow not
as good as we are. Yup, Red Necks, they drive a pickup :-)

BTW, when one of those students got married, my wife and I were the only
whites invited to his otherwise all black wedding. It was a bit of an
educational experience for me, to feel just a little of the unease
blacks must feel on many occasions.

We were treated very nicely; but we were obviously part of "them," or
"the others."

Living abroad I've been invited to any number of weddings, parties,
funerals, etc., where I was an oddity. And yes it does make you feel
sort of funny about being "the only one here". (although after I
stopped drinking I've felt much the same way at some get-to-gathers of
my peers).

--

Cheers,

John B.

Sorry but I was actually alive in the 50's and old enough to know what was going on in Oakland. And the blacks were often the most respectable people in the entire area of a neighborhood and generally the best educated. The numbers of whites that remained drunk from the hour after work on Friday to wake up hung over Monday morning was legion.

While I don't doubt you the discussion was specifically about
conditions in the South. In fact, I believe that I specifically
mentioned Florida, Georgia, Alabama and Louisiana

But the blacks didn't do that. A black drunk was called a wino and in our entire area I only knew of one. I suppose blacks drunk and perhaps some of them got drunk but they weren't addicted to alcohol like most of the whites were.

There were some black teenagers that were real jerks but they were about the same percentage as white teenage jerks. We went to school to learn and none were more attentive and got better educated to the extent possible than the blacks.
--

Cheers,

John B.

The problem wasn't the minorities but the **** poor educational systems there.

On Fri, 31 May 2019 09:39:44 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Thursday, May 30, 2019 at 12:53:30 AM UTC-7, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Wed, 29 May 2019 12:08:50 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Tuesday, May 28, 2019 at 10:54:14 PM UTC-7, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Tue, 28 May 2019 13:00:48 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 5/27/2019 7:48 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Mon, 27 May 2019 15:33:26 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 5/27/2019 1:43 AM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Sun, 26 May 2019 23:58:59 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 5/26/2019 8:43 PM, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 26 May 2019 19:34:51 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 5/26/2019 7:02 PM, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 26 May 2019 11:26:06 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 5/25/2019 10:34 PM, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 25 May 2019 10:08:31 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie
wrote:


Much deleted

Everyone finds cycling as dangerous as he or she experiences it so you can stop your long essays. They don't change anything. They only make you look pedant.

Lou, the authors of the paper disagree with you. They point out that
propaganda has falsely convinced people that bicycling is dangerous; and
the result is that vast numbers of people _don't_ experience it. They
discuss this in some detail at the end of their paper.

What propaganda? What "vast numbers of people"? A lot of people don't ride in heavy traffic because it sucks -- or because they're lazy or even because they don't like riding around other cyclists. It's not all about perceived danger. Like I've said before, I have some high mileage friends who gave up riding on some roads just because they were unpleasant and stressful.

I know very few people, if any, who legitimately don't ride because of danger or the supposed danger propaganda. Most of the people who talk to me in the elevator about it being too dangerous to ride have a doughnut in one hand and a double-tall caramel machiato with whipped cream in the other. You could put in an elevated cycling tube from their homes, and they would find some other reason for not riding. People who want to ride typically can find a traffic calmed street or bicycle facility to use -- or some other facility where they feel comfortable.

Some roads I ride are dangerous because the locals are plain vicious -- the PU drivers in rural counties who want to make a point by making close passes on shoulderless country roads with ridiculously high speed limits (50-55mph). Riding lane center makes no difference except in terms of how long the honking lasts. No cycling technique makes a difference. Maybe Atavan or a shotgun would make a difference. It is plain unpleasant, and I totally understand riders staying away.

Truly? Are people in the U.S. actually so vicious? To deliberately
pass very closely when passing bicycles?

It happens. Since I started riding more prominently in the lane (away
from the gutter) it's been rare, but it happens.

I think there are several reasons. Some motorists who honestly don't
know that it's a bad practice. Some motorists who honestly don't know
how wide their car is. (Keep in mind, the standards for passing a U.S.
driver's license test are laughably low.)

More often, there are motorists who can't be bothered to delay
themselves for ten seconds. They try to squeeze by even though other
cars prevent safe passing clearance.

The worst are the type Jay describes, who execute a "punishment pass."
They object to a bicyclists using "their" road, and deliberately scare
the cyclist by passing close, often while roaring the engine, honking
the horn, etc.

Again, for me close passes are a rare event. For edge riders, they're
more common. And apparently in some redneck parts of the country they're
more common.

Admittedly I've not been in the U.S. for a long time but I don't
remember it like that at all.

I even lived in what you refer to as "Red Neck" country for quite a
number of years and I actually found the bulk of the "Red Necks to be
quite polite and very friendly. It wasn't all "tobacco road" either.
One bloke that used to come in the shop owned three off-shore drilling
rigs, another "farmed" something like a hundred acres of cotton and
one was a lawyer... who along with his father had one client, the
Gracie More Estate, or some such name. I asked the boss about this
"Gracie More Estate" and he told me it was a cotton plantation where
they found oil.

It sure must have changed.

I'm sure it varies from place to place. And of course, from person to
person.

I recall riding a quiet country road with a young girl who was visiting
us. She had waist-length hair that was blowing out behind her as she rode.

A pickup truck came by with two yelling yokels. The truck swerved toward
her, and the passenger leaned out and apparently tried to grab her hair.
Fortunately he missed.

In that same area, my only other bicycling friend in town - an engineer
at the same plant where I worked - was riding home from work and was
knocked off his bike by a dog. This was at a house he regularly rode by.
Damage was minor (torn pants and a broken watch band, IIRC) but he went
up to the door to complain. The residents said "That's not our dog" even
though he saw it there all the time.

So he rode home and called the local sheriff. The sheriff told him "If I
was you, I'd get my gun and shoot that dog." My friend was a good shot
(we'd done some shooting together) but he declined.

I was quite happy to leave that area.

BTW, since then some fairly large companies have come into that town.
The population has grown quite a lot, and there are cultural amenities
that we couldn't have dreamed of. There's even a pretty active bike club.

Are you shore that you aren't exaggerating? Certainly there are folks
in every community that are, to use a colloquialism, "a horse's-ass"
but when I lived in the U.S. I found the bulk of the folks I met to be
pretty nice folks. And I was either a Yankee or a G.I. for much of the
time, Both apparently 2nd class citizens :-)

Oh, the bulk of folks we met there were nice. But compared to where I
grew up and live now, it seemed to have many more jerks, rednecks,
racists, etc. And as a bonus, there were quite a few who were convinced
the Civil War was just on hold for a while.

As for the Civil War, well, my grandfather was born in 1883 so while
he, himself, didn't experience the civil war certainly his parents did
and would have likely told him about conditions during the war, so I
can only assume that blokes living in the South might well have had
the same experience. Certainly if my Grand dad had told me stories
about Sherman marching through New Hampshire I might have somewhat
less than happy thoughts about "them Yankees".

But I lived in the South, Florida, Georgia, Alabama, Louisiana and
Texas (which isn't really a "Southern" state) and I don't believe that
I ever met anyone who wasn't aware that the Civil War was over and
done with. and yes, I have had people ask me to repeat things as my
"Northern" accent sounded funny to them, but essentially it was not
that different in living in Maine where any "out of state'er" is
considered a foreigner.

When I was first assigned to the Air Base at Bangor, Maine, I had just
gotten back from nearly 10 years in Japan and had no credit rating at
all so bought a house trailer for my wife and I to live in. When I
called a trailer park to see whether there was any space the owner
said he wasn't sure and why didn't I drive out and we'll have a look.

Anyway, I got there and yes there were open spaces and the guy and I
got to chatting and he asked me where I was from and I told him "New
Hampshire" which isn't Maine but close to. He than tells me that he
"doesn't like to rent to those "southern fellows" so he likes to talk
to folks before he agrees to let them into his lot.

That was probably the most blatant example of prejudice that I ever
encountered in the U.S.

I worked in the southern U.S. for years, first as an engineer, then as a
teacher. I saw far more blatant racial prejudice than I've ever seen
anywhere else.

It certainly wasn't everybody. Most people were very nice. But the ones
who expressed their racism did it much more frequently and openly than
I've ever been used to.

True, and I might add that growing up in New Hampshire my only contact
with what are now referred to as "Afro-Americans was the Uncle Remus
stories. The first Afro-American I ever saw was a member of a semi-pro
baseball team that came to town to play against the Town Team when I
was a senior in high school so I certainly had no pre-conceived
notions when I went to Florida to school. When I finished school I
went to work in a small town, Bainbridge, Georgia.

I think that what I noticed the most about what you call "blatant
racial prejudice" was really more a matter of people "knowing" that
"They" really weren't as good as "Us". And let's face it, "They"
weren't really as good as "Us". "They" had little education, had few
marketable skills, and were, generally speaking, less law abiding.

You can argue all you want about "Them" not having a chance, etc., but
the point was at that time "They" really didn't measure up.

I agree that while there certainly were those that "hated"
Afro-Americans simply because they were Afro-Americans but there were
far more, at least among those who I knew, who simply viewed them as a
lower class of people, which was, at the time, just what they were.

I had black friends and students who were certainly not lower class
people, but who regularly endured taunts, snide comments and worse.

Certainly you can find isolated instances that "prove" any "beloved"
point (after all SMS is famous for it) but I can only say that in the
early 1950's the majority of the Afro-Americans in the South were
poorly educated and had few, if any marketable skills other than
following a mule. In fact a large number of them didn't even speak
English well.

In short all the qualities that make any minority easy to assign the
category of "lesser". The song "We want no Irish Here" was written in
the late 1800's and was certainly true at the time. Or (being an
ex-serviceman) Rudyard Kipling's poem "Tommy". Both certainly prove
the point that minority groups are easy to classify as someone that we
don't want to associate with.

In fact I see it right here. You, for one, and Jay, and several others
classifying others as "Red Necks" and talking about "Red Neck
Country". Implying. it seems, that anyone "like that" is somehow not
as good as we are. Yup, Red Necks, they drive a pickup :-)

BTW, when one of those students got married, my wife and I were the only
whites invited to his otherwise all black wedding. It was a bit of an
educational experience for me, to feel just a little of the unease
blacks must feel on many occasions.

We were treated very nicely; but we were obviously part of "them," or
"the others."

Living abroad I've been invited to any number of weddings, parties,
funerals, etc., where I was an oddity. And yes it does make you feel
sort of funny about being "the only one here". (although after I
stopped drinking I've felt much the same way at some get-to-gathers of
my peers).

--

Cheers,

John B.

Sorry but I was actually alive in the 50's and old enough to know what was going on in Oakland. And the blacks were often the most respectable people in the entire area of a neighborhood and generally the best educated. The numbers of whites that remained drunk from the hour after work on Friday to wake up hung over Monday morning was legion.

While I don't doubt you the discussion was specifically about
conditions in the South. In fact, I believe that I specifically
mentioned Florida, Georgia, Alabama and Louisiana

But the blacks didn't do that. A black drunk was called a wino and in our entire area I only knew of one. I suppose blacks drunk and perhaps some of them got drunk but they weren't addicted to alcohol like most of the whites were.

There were some black teenagers that were real jerks but they were about the same percentage as white teenage jerks. We went to school to learn and none were more attentive and got better educated to the extent possible than the blacks.
--

Cheers,

John B.

The problem wasn't the minorities but the **** poor educational systems there.

As I repeatedly told Frank, my comments were not regarding,why it
existed, or what we could do about it, or any isolated examples, I was
only stating the circumstances that I saw and experienced in the very
early 50's in the South.
--

Cheers,

John B.