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  #191  
Old May 27th 19, 12:18 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sir Ridesalot
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Posts: 5,270
Default Bottle holder

On Sunday, May 26, 2019 at 3:05:03 PM UTC-4, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, May 20, 2019 at 8:21:55 AM UTC-4, AK wrote:
I want to get a bottle holder for my bike.

It has no pre-drilled holes for the holder.

I found some that clamp on but not sure if they would work with the wide tube that I would need to mount it to.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/llqwef4nym...71257.jpg?dl=0

Andy


Bringing this thread back to the topic of bottle holders.

On some really long rides when the weather is quite hot and humid I'll use a spare toe strap to hold a water bottle under my seat tube and another spare toe strap to hold a water bottle to my handlebar. To hold the bottle to the handlebar the strap goes over the handlebar, then under the stem then back over the handlebar and around the bottle. Heck, I've even used the handlebar mount strap to hold a cup of coffee.

Cheers


Addendum.

Here are two images I took on today's ride to show how I use a toestrap to mount a spare bottle to my handlebar. This is my 1980's MIELE MTB converted to dropbar, cyclocross levers and V-brakes.

https://flic.kr/p/2g3cWtj

and

https://flic.kr/p/2g3cWvJ

Cheers
Ads
  #192  
Old May 27th 19, 12:23 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 10,538
Default Bottle holder

On 5/26/2019 6:36 PM, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 26 May 2019 10:11:47 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Sun, 26 May 2019 13:18:43 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Sat, 25 May 2019 21:13:36 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Fri, 24 May 2019 15:22:12 +0700, John B.
wrote:

Different strokes for different folks, I guess. But sharpening drills
is just two passes across the grinding wheel and a chain saw has a
multitude of teeth :-)

Sharpening chain saw cutters is much easier than sharpening a drill
bit. I have enough chain saws and spare chains that knowing how to
sharpen the chains is an economic requirement.
http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/chainsaw/chain-saws-02.jpg
(I no longer own the 3 Homelite EZ saws in the first two rows).
Sharpening chains is mostly a matter of knowing how to use a file
guide, doing symmetrical cuts from both sides of the bar, and
occasionally using the depth gauge to check raker height. I have a
fancy guide:
https://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200308557_200308557
but prefer a simple file guide:
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Oregon-3-16-in-File-Guide-with-File-25896/307730637
I find chain saw sharpening much easier than drill bit sharpening.


My father's older brother was crippled - had polio when he was a
senior in high school. Being a typical New England family he expected
to work and because he couldn't get around he started filing saws -
this was back in the days when carpenters used hand saws - and I
remember him filing one tooth at a time until he worked all the way
down the saw blade and then flipping the saw in the vise and starting
back. I asked him once about some sort of grinding machine and he said
that yes, he had tried that but hand filing was better.

I don't expect that you can get that sort of hand work in the U.S. any
more... nor over here either.


Probably still being done in very rural areas, but not in the cities.
However, there's hope. There are many videos on YouTube demonstrating
how to sharpen rip and crosscut saws by hand:
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=sharpen+hand+saw


Well just looking at the pictures the first two selections are wrong
:-) and it is probably a sign of old age but multiple youtube movies
to show the initiated how to do something that should be almost
intuitive, or at least intuitive as soon as one examined the cutting
edge of a wood saw.

Way back in the early 1960's, we had a "knife sharpener" make the
rounds of the factories in downtown Smog Angeles offering to sharpen
anything that might need sharpening. I don't recall if that included
saws, but I suspect he would sharpen one if asked. My father owned a
lingerie factory and this sharpener would do all his scissors, raffle
cutters, drills, etc. He had an amazing push cart that was literally
crammed full of hand tools or all types. I wish I had photos. No
electricity was used. All his grinding wheels were hand or foot
powered. Something like this but bigger and with cabinets full of
hand tools:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GD0snLGV-Q
https://www.google.com/search?q=knife+sharpening+push+cart&bm=isch
He had various polishing stones for hand sharpening. Most everything
was done by hand which produced perfect edges (depending on
application). I didn't really appreciate the skills involved until I
later tried to sharpen a few things myself.


There used to be an old fellow that came around on a bicycle
sharpening knives, etc. He is long gone now but he had rigged up his
bicycle with a grinding wheel mounted above the rear wheel and by
putting the bike up on its stand and lowering the grinding wheel
attachment he could pedal the bike standing beside it and have a high
speed grinder.


For many, many years Chuck Harris was a feature of many cycling events
around Ohio. He was famous for his overloaded VW Bus, his super-capacity
homemade derailleurs, his fenders recycled from 2 liter pop bottles,
etc. etc. But he was most famous for his custom made eyeglass mirrors.

He did a lot of the mirror work while pedal-powering a grinder he
cobbled together from a bike frame. I don't know if this link will work.
(I hate Facebook):

https://www.facebook.com/43469530324...8544875197047/

Chuck died in 2012. He was a very interesting guy.

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #193  
Old May 27th 19, 01:24 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
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Posts: 2,421
Default Bottle holder

On Sun, 26 May 2019 15:23:41 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Sun, 26 May 2019 14:17:51 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

Handlebar mounted water bottles lost favor with fashionable cyclists
due to competition from other devices that are hung on the handlebars.

(...)

What to do if you run out of space on your handlebars:
https://www.peterwhitecycles.com/images/products/Lights/nitto-light-bar.jpg
https://www.peterwhitecycles.com/images/products/Lights/nitto-light-bar2.jpg
https://www.peterwhitecycles.com/images/products/Lights/nitto-light-bar3.jpg
https://www.peterwhitecycles.com/light-mounts.php
Might be some room left for water bottles.

More on Rivnuts:
http://www.pardo.net/bike/pic/fail-001/FAIL-178.html
Frame failed at water bottle boss. This is an aluminum frame
with a crimp-in "Riv-Nut"-style threaded boss. The frame is drilled
and the boss installed; the hole slightly weakens the frame and
the crimping creates some local stresses. A typical alternative
is to weld in a boss. In some cases, the weakening and stress-riser
effects of welding and of the boss section may weaken the frame
more than drilling a hole and using a Riv-Nut.


Yup, that's one. If I had my camera I could post you a photo of a bike
that must be 15 years old now with rivnuts in the down and seat tubes.
No failure yet.

But never mind the rivnuts the damned front fork broke, and the rims,
and what appears to be the bottom bracket.

They just don't make them like they used to.
--
cheers,

John B.

  #194  
Old May 27th 19, 01:28 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,421
Default Bottle holder

On Sun, 26 May 2019 18:59:09 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 5/26/2019 6:23 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 26 May 2019 14:17:51 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

Handlebar mounted water bottles lost favor with fashionable cyclists
due to competition from other devices that are hung on the handlebars.

(...)

What to do if you run out of space on your handlebars:
https://www.peterwhitecycles.com/images/products/Lights/nitto-light-bar.jpg
https://www.peterwhitecycles.com/images/products/Lights/nitto-light-bar2.jpg
https://www.peterwhitecycles.com/images/products/Lights/nitto-light-bar3.jpg


I don't see a reason you couldn't "daisy chain" these things. Fit one
after another, cascading all the way down to the front wheel. Or
actually, front fender, because such a bike would certainly have fenders.

Then you could easily mount a front water bottle cage - or a few!


Or maybe we could get rich building water bottles with tiny little
wheels on. They could be towed behind the bicycle thus eliminating the
need for those dangerous rivnuts.

One could built 2 wheel, 4 wheel, even six and eight wheels. Think of
the prestige, "Oh, mine is an eight wheeler".
--
cheers,

John B.

  #195  
Old May 27th 19, 01:41 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,477
Default Bottle holder

On 5/26/2019 3:23 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

snip

More on Rivnuts:
http://www.pardo.net/bike/pic/fail-001/FAIL-178.html
Frame failed at water bottle boss. This is an aluminum frame
with a crimp-in "Riv-Nut"-style threaded boss. The frame is drilled
and the boss installed; the hole slightly weakens the frame and
the crimping creates some local stresses. A typical alternative
is to weld in a boss. In some cases, the weakening and stress-riser
effects of welding and of the boss section may weaken the frame
more than drilling a hole and using a Riv-Nut.


No one disputes that Rivnuts weaken a frame, it's just a question of how
much. It's unclear if that example involved factory install Rivnuts or
Rivnuts installed afterward. The latter is much more prone to failure of
course, though in most cases you can get away with it, depending on the
frame material and how well the drilling and installation was done.

The fact that people get away with drilling and installing Rivnuts does
not mean that it's a great idea to do it. People do really stupid stuff
all the time and get away with it, but that's not proof of anything. As
Jobst stated, "I don't know many riders who believe that drilling a hole
in a frame tube is a reasonable concept."

The other issue is that it voids your lifetime frame warranty. As we've
seen just in this group, people do occasionally take advantage of that
lifetime frame warranty.
  #196  
Old May 27th 19, 02:09 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sir Ridesalot
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,270
Default Bottle holder

On Sunday, May 26, 2019 at 8:41:44 PM UTC-4, sms wrote:
On 5/26/2019 3:23 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

snip

More on Rivnuts:
http://www.pardo.net/bike/pic/fail-001/FAIL-178.html
Frame failed at water bottle boss. This is an aluminum frame
with a crimp-in "Riv-Nut"-style threaded boss. The frame is drilled
and the boss installed; the hole slightly weakens the frame and
the crimping creates some local stresses. A typical alternative
is to weld in a boss. In some cases, the weakening and stress-riser
effects of welding and of the boss section may weaken the frame
more than drilling a hole and using a Riv-Nut.


No one disputes that Rivnuts weaken a frame, it's just a question of how
much. It's unclear if that example involved factory install Rivnuts or
Rivnuts installed afterward. The latter is much more prone to failure of
course, though in most cases you can get away with it, depending on the
frame material and how well the drilling and installation was done.

The fact that people get away with drilling and installing Rivnuts does
not mean that it's a great idea to do it. People do really stupid stuff
all the time and get away with it, but that's not proof of anything. As
Jobst stated, "I don't know many riders who believe that drilling a hole
in a frame tube is a reasonable concept."

The other issue is that it voids your lifetime frame warranty. As we've
seen just in this group, people do occasionally take advantage of that
lifetime frame warranty.


You are so full of bull**** it keeps coming out of your mouth/fingers and ends up on this newsgroup. RIVNUTS are NOT difficult to install onto a bicycle frame tube nor do they seriously weaken the frame to do so. Heck man, many even use RIVNUTS on their FRONT FORKS to mount either a low rider rack or water bottles and those don't fail.

Cheers
  #197  
Old May 27th 19, 02:30 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,421
Default Bottle holder

On Sun, 26 May 2019 17:41:38 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 5/26/2019 3:23 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

snip

More on Rivnuts:
http://www.pardo.net/bike/pic/fail-001/FAIL-178.html
Frame failed at water bottle boss. This is an aluminum frame
with a crimp-in "Riv-Nut"-style threaded boss. The frame is drilled
and the boss installed; the hole slightly weakens the frame and
the crimping creates some local stresses. A typical alternative
is to weld in a boss. In some cases, the weakening and stress-riser
effects of welding and of the boss section may weaken the frame
more than drilling a hole and using a Riv-Nut.


No one disputes that Rivnuts weaken a frame, it's just a question of how
much. It's unclear if that example involved factory install Rivnuts or
Rivnuts installed afterward. The latter is much more prone to failure of
course, though in most cases you can get away with it, depending on the
frame material and how well the drilling and installation was done.

The fact that people get away with drilling and installing Rivnuts does
not mean that it's a great idea to do it. People do really stupid stuff
all the time and get away with it, but that's not proof of anything. As
Jobst stated, "I don't know many riders who believe that drilling a hole
in a frame tube is a reasonable concept."


Yes and Jobst argued that one needed a special tool to install "quick
links" even after a number of people informed him that they were able
to install and remove quick links with their hands.

Your unspoken assertion that somehow someone installing rivnuts on
their bike frame are wrong, despite the fact that many factory made
bikes come with rivnuts already installed. which is apparently, from
your remarks, perfectly all right.

The problem with this theory is that the people that make tubes for
building bicycle frames don't seem to make special tubes for rivnuts
and other tubes for use when rivnuts are not installed.

Columbus, for example, in business for a hundred years this year,
makes, oh say, SL Niobium, tubes, (Steel triple butted tubes for
competition frames). They make a 25.4 top tube, a 28.6 down tube and a
28.6 seat tube, and of course the stays and head tube. That's it. No
special tubes to install rivnuts or any warnings about not installing
rivnuts.

So, is your assertion that one cannot, upon fear of failure, install a
rivnut in a Columbus tube frame?

And yes, I realize that you have taken your stand, that rivnuts are
bad, bad, bad, and believe that it might be a" loss of face" for you
to admit that you were wrong, in spite of all the proof supplied that
you were, in fact, wrong.

But tell me, which is the more stupid act, to agree that you were in
the wrong? Or to continue to argue that you were right regardless of
how much proof is furnished to the contrary?

The other issue is that it voids your lifetime frame warranty. As we've
seen just in this group, people do occasionally take advantage of that
lifetime frame warranty.


Ah yes, a warranty. I can only comment that I have been buying things
for a lot of years and I have yet to have to creep back to the maker
with a woeful story about how this thing just broke and I want a new
one. "Honest mister, I was just standing there and (you'll never
believe it) it just broke".
--
cheers,

John B.

  #198  
Old May 27th 19, 02:55 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jeff Liebermann
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,018
Default Bottle holder

On Mon, 27 May 2019 07:24:56 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Sun, 26 May 2019 15:23:41 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:
More on Rivnuts:
http://www.pardo.net/bike/pic/fail-001/FAIL-178.html
Frame failed at water bottle boss. This is an aluminum frame
with a crimp-in "Riv-Nut"-style threaded boss. The frame is drilled
and the boss installed; the hole slightly weakens the frame and
the crimping creates some local stresses. A typical alternative
is to weld in a boss. In some cases, the weakening and stress-riser
effects of welding and of the boss section may weaken the frame
more than drilling a hole and using a Riv-Nut.


Yup, that's one. If I had my camera I could post you a photo of a bike
that must be 15 years old now with rivnuts in the down and seat tubes.
No failure yet.


The problems start when you drill a hole for Rivnuts on the bottom of
the top tube. All the tubes on a bicycle are both in tension and
compression depending on weight distribution. However, the down tube
sees the most tension which is why it's often a larger diameter than
the others.

If a Rivnut hole were drilled on the top half of the down tube, the
hole would be mostly in compression. As long as there are no sharp
burrs around the hole, the Rivnut should be strong enough to resist
compression. If there were any failure here, it would be due to
buckling, which is unlikely.

However, a hole drilled on the bottom of the down tube sees more
tension, which tends to create or open cracks along the circumference.
The strength of the Rivnut does nothing because there is no pressure
on the Rivnut when the down tube is in tension. For strength, the
Rivnut might as well be absent. Once a tear or crack starts, it's
just a matter of time before the down tube fails at the hole.
Fortunately, most water bottle mounts are attached on the inside of
the main frame triangle, which is the part that is mostly in
compression.

What holes in frame tubes under tension do is decrease or remove the
safety factor designed into the various tubes. The safety factor
varies with class of service. If low weight is paramount, the safety
factor will be quite low. If safety and structural integrity is
paramount, such as in children's bicycles, the safety factor will be
very high. When holes are drilled in such structures, the resultant
structures are usually strong enough to support themselves and the
rider, but with a lower safety factor. A hard landing or repetitive
impacts might exceed this lower safety factor and cause a failure.
These will survive if treated gently:
http://bicyclepatents.com/a-bad-case-of-drillium/1293/

But never mind the rivnuts the damned front fork broke, and the rims,
and what appears to be the bottom bracket.

They just don't make them like they used to.


For every advancement in bicycle material science, finite element
modeling, assembly methods, and testing, there is an equal and
opposite tendency to build bicycles as close to the point of failure
as possible. The design goal is for everything to fail
simultaneously. Otherwise, the surviving components will be deemed
"over-built" with an excessive safety margin.


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
  #199  
Old May 27th 19, 05:03 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,538
Default Bottle holder

On 5/26/2019 9:55 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:


The problems start when you drill a hole for Rivnuts on the bottom of
the top tube. All the tubes on a bicycle are both in tension and
compression depending on weight distribution. However, the down tube
sees the most tension which is why it's often a larger diameter than
the others.

If a Rivnut hole were drilled on the top half of the down tube, the
hole would be mostly in compression. As long as there are no sharp
burrs around the hole, the Rivnut should be strong enough to resist
compression. If there were any failure here, it would be due to
buckling, which is unlikely.

However, a hole drilled on the bottom of the down tube sees more
tension, which tends to create or open cracks along the circumference.


Actually, it's not just tension and compression. The down tube,
especially, has torsional stresses. That's the real reason for the
increased diameter. I'll point out that the only Rivnut failure shown so
far had a 45 degree failure line. That's perfectly characteristic of
torsion.

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #200  
Old May 27th 19, 02:18 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,447
Default Bottle holder

On 5/26/2019 8:55 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Mon, 27 May 2019 07:24:56 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Sun, 26 May 2019 15:23:41 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:
More on Rivnuts:
http://www.pardo.net/bike/pic/fail-001/FAIL-178.html
Frame failed at water bottle boss. This is an aluminum frame
with a crimp-in "Riv-Nut"-style threaded boss. The frame is drilled
and the boss installed; the hole slightly weakens the frame and
the crimping creates some local stresses. A typical alternative
is to weld in a boss. In some cases, the weakening and stress-riser
effects of welding and of the boss section may weaken the frame
more than drilling a hole and using a Riv-Nut.


Yup, that's one. If I had my camera I could post you a photo of a bike
that must be 15 years old now with rivnuts in the down and seat tubes.
No failure yet.


The problems start when you drill a hole for Rivnuts on the bottom of
the top tube. All the tubes on a bicycle are both in tension and
compression depending on weight distribution. However, the down tube
sees the most tension which is why it's often a larger diameter than
the others.

If a Rivnut hole were drilled on the top half of the down tube, the
hole would be mostly in compression. As long as there are no sharp
burrs around the hole, the Rivnut should be strong enough to resist
compression. If there were any failure here, it would be due to
buckling, which is unlikely.

However, a hole drilled on the bottom of the down tube sees more
tension, which tends to create or open cracks along the circumference.
The strength of the Rivnut does nothing because there is no pressure
on the Rivnut when the down tube is in tension. For strength, the
Rivnut might as well be absent. Once a tear or crack starts, it's
just a matter of time before the down tube fails at the hole.
Fortunately, most water bottle mounts are attached on the inside of
the main frame triangle, which is the part that is mostly in
compression.

What holes in frame tubes under tension do is decrease or remove the
safety factor designed into the various tubes. The safety factor
varies with class of service. If low weight is paramount, the safety
factor will be quite low. If safety and structural integrity is
paramount, such as in children's bicycles, the safety factor will be
very high. When holes are drilled in such structures, the resultant
structures are usually strong enough to support themselves and the
rider, but with a lower safety factor. A hard landing or repetitive
impacts might exceed this lower safety factor and cause a failure.
These will survive if treated gently:
http://bicyclepatents.com/a-bad-case-of-drillium/1293/

But never mind the rivnuts the damned front fork broke, and the rims,
and what appears to be the bottom bracket.

They just don't make them like they used to.


For every advancement in bicycle material science, finite element
modeling, assembly methods, and testing, there is an equal and
opposite tendency to build bicycles as close to the point of failure
as possible. The design goal is for everything to fail
simultaneously. Otherwise, the surviving components will be deemed
"over-built" with an excessive safety margin.



None of that's wrong but the torsional cyclic forces on a
downtube are significant whether the anomaly is top or bottom.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


 




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