Dangerous? Study: 77 to 1 benefit to risk

On Aug 14, 7:13 am, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Aug 14, 2:32 am, Chalo wrote:

roberthurst wrote:

Peter Cole wrote:

Around that time (1880's) I believe the League of American Wheelmen (or
whatever it was called then) also attempted to ban blacks from their
ranks by charter. If I recall the history properly, it won the majority
but fell short of the 2/3's required for an amendment.

As far as I know, the LAW's "whites only" amendment was passed in
1894, and was in place until repeal in 1999.

Effing hilarious. So much for being relevant.

I knew black members of LAB as early as 1978, when I attended my first
LAW rally. I met members of the Major Taylor Cycling Club there (from
Indianapolis, I think.) And the most prominent black cyclist in our
town (a now-retired television reporter) has been a member as long as
I've known him - since about 1980.

If there really was a "whites only" amendment up till 1999, it must
have been thoroughly ignored for a long, long time.


We know you're a decent man, but words like "most prominent" and
"eminent" (first post in this thread) say something about how a man
evaluates and regards his fellow man.

"Dan O" wrote in message
...
On Aug 13, 8:46 pm, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Aug 13, 1:29 pm, Michael Press wrote:



In article ,
Frank Krygowski wrote:

Michael Press wrote:
In ,
Frank wrote:

Michael Press wrote:

Then retract your assertion.

Hmm. I don't remember seeing proof that I should.

The proof is that responsible investigators
provide evidence of their claims.

They supply evidence of _every_ assertion they ever make? Um...
Where's
your evidence for that claim? ;-)

They provide evidence or proof as a matter of course,
and when they do not, supply evidence or proof when asked.

That's quite an assertion. Please post the evidence that it's true.


You've descended to bad vaudeville.

Do you have evidence to support that assertion? Do you have any evidence to
support that there is no evidence to support the counter assertion? What
does your evidence prove, and why should I believe it? And what states even
have vaudeville, and how do you know if vaudeville is good or bad. Do you
have a degreee in vaudeville? Don't you think you should leave vaudeville
to the experts?

-- Jay Beattie.



--- Posted via news://freenews.netfront.net/ - Complaints to ---

"Duane Hebert" wrote in message
...
On 8/14/2011 1:54 AM, Dan O wrote:
Riding bike is nothing like driving car. Vehicular cycling advocates
would unreasonably constrain and regulate my activities to take nearly
all of the fun out it (the #1 thing that makes me ride) - and for what? I
take full responsibility for my actions. Riding bike is nothing like
driving car.


I was riding yesterday afternoon in the right lane of a 4 lane two way
street. Two lanes going each way. A car behind me passed on the left
nearly clipping me and cut back in front of me, switched on his blinker
and took a sharp right. Guess he couldn't afford to wait the 12 seconds
to get to the turn. No bike lane, no path just riding on the road pretty
much in the lane. This doesn't happen every day but it's also not
"vanishingly rare" as the VC guys like to say.

This is not that uncommon for me riding downtown in certain areas (NW 14th
for the locals -- shopper's hell). I now plan for it, but still don't
believe it -- that and people pulling out from particular streets. What I
have noticed lately is that cars will pass me at virtually any cost -- to me
or to them or to on-coming traffic. I'll take the lane in a Frank-approved
manner, and cars will cross the center line and squeeze out on-coming
motorists and me. Patience has waned to an all-time low, IMO -- and I'm a
pretty fast rider and never slowing anyone by more than a few miles under
the speed limit. You wonder if there is any way this could possible get
better with an increasing population, increasing road congestion, increasing
stress, increasing distractions and decreasing patience.

--- Jay Beattie.



--- Posted via news://freenews.netfront.net/ - Complaints to ---

On Aug 14, 10:31 am, "Jay Beattie" wrote:
"Duane Hebert" wrote in message

...

On 8/14/2011 1:54 AM, Dan O wrote:
Riding bike is nothing like driving car. Vehicular cycling advocates
would unreasonably constrain and regulate my activities to take nearly
all of the fun out it (the #1 thing that makes me ride) - and for what? I
take full responsibility for my actions. Riding bike is nothing like
driving car.

I was riding yesterday afternoon in the right lane of a 4 lane two way
street. Two lanes going each way. A car behind me passed on the left
nearly clipping me and cut back in front of me, switched on his blinker
and took a sharp right. Guess he couldn't afford to wait the 12 seconds
to get to the turn. No bike lane, no path just riding on the road pretty
much in the lane. This doesn't happen every day but it's also not
"vanishingly rare" as the VC guys like to say.

This is not that uncommon for me riding downtown in certain areas (NW 14th
for the locals -- shopper's hell). I now plan for it, but still don't
believe it -- that and people pulling out from particular streets. What I
have noticed lately is that cars will pass me at virtually any cost -- to me
or to them or to on-coming traffic. I'll take the lane in a Frank-approved
manner, and cars will cross the center line and squeeze out on-coming
motorists and me. Patience has waned to an all-time low, IMO -- and I'm a
pretty fast rider and never slowing anyone by more than a few miles under
the speed limit. You wonder if there is any way this could possible get
better with an increasing population, increasing road congestion, increasing
stress, increasing distractions and decreasing patience.


Oh but don't you know - just take out all facilities and it will be
1950's Pleasantville redux. Amsterdam is a lie, don't you know.

On 8/14/2011 1:31 PM, Jay Beattie wrote:
"Duane wrote in message
...
On 8/14/2011 1:54 AM, Dan O wrote:
Riding bike is nothing like driving car. Vehicular cycling advocates
would unreasonably constrain and regulate my activities to take nearly
all of the fun out it (the #1 thing that makes me ride) - and for what? I
take full responsibility for my actions. Riding bike is nothing like
driving car.

I was riding yesterday afternoon in the right lane of a 4 lane two way
street. Two lanes going each way. A car behind me passed on the left
nearly clipping me and cut back in front of me, switched on his blinker
and took a sharp right. Guess he couldn't afford to wait the 12 seconds
to get to the turn. No bike lane, no path just riding on the road pretty
much in the lane. This doesn't happen every day but it's also not
"vanishingly rare" as the VC guys like to say.
This is not that uncommon for me riding downtown in certain areas (NW 14th
for the locals -- shopper's hell). I now plan for it, but still don't
believe it -- that and people pulling out from particular streets. What I
have noticed lately is that cars will pass me at virtually any cost -- to me
or to them or to on-coming traffic. I'll take the lane in a Frank-approved
manner, and cars will cross the center line and squeeze out on-coming
motorists and me. Patience has waned to an all-time low, IMO -- and I'm a
pretty fast rider and never slowing anyone by more than a few miles under
the speed limit. You wonder if there is any way this could possible get
better with an increasing population, increasing road congestion, increasing
stress, increasing distractions and decreasing patience.


It has been noticeably worse here due to some severe construction
problems and mis-scheduling of road repairs. Everyone seems on edge and
patience is strained.

I don't see how it can improve unless the traffic is reduced and to do
that in the face of increased populations is quite a problem. That's
part of the big push here for increased cycling as well as increased
public transportation. We started to see some improvement until the
highways and bridges started falling apart. Now the work force normally
doing road maintenance like pot hole repairs is repairing holes in
bridges and the streets are not getting done.

My wife just got hit for a nice chunk of change to fix her car's
suspension and mine is headed to the shop on Monday. These things
happen every year but usually by the beginning of summer the potholes
are more or less patched. It's nearly the end of summer now and there
has been no noticeable improvement. I hate to think what it will be
like if we go through another winter without fixing last winter's road
damage.

On 8/14/2011 1:40 PM, Dan O wrote:
On Aug 14, 10:31 am, "Jay wrote:
"Duane wrote in message

...

On 8/14/2011 1:54 AM, Dan O wrote:
Riding bike is nothing like driving car. Vehicular cycling advocates
would unreasonably constrain and regulate my activities to take nearly
all of the fun out it (the #1 thing that makes me ride) - and for what? I
take full responsibility for my actions. Riding bike is nothing like
driving car.
I was riding yesterday afternoon in the right lane of a 4 lane two way
street. Two lanes going each way. A car behind me passed on the left
nearly clipping me and cut back in front of me, switched on his blinker
and took a sharp right. Guess he couldn't afford to wait the 12 seconds
to get to the turn. No bike lane, no path just riding on the road pretty
much in the lane. This doesn't happen every day but it's also not
"vanishingly rare" as the VC guys like to say.
This is not that uncommon for me riding downtown in certain areas (NW 14th
for the locals -- shopper's hell). I now plan for it, but still don't
believe it -- that and people pulling out from particular streets. What I
have noticed lately is that cars will pass me at virtually any cost -- to me
or to them or to on-coming traffic. I'll take the lane in a Frank-approved
manner, and cars will cross the center line and squeeze out on-coming
motorists and me. Patience has waned to an all-time low, IMO -- and I'm a
pretty fast rider and never slowing anyone by more than a few miles under
the speed limit. You wonder if there is any way this could possible get
better with an increasing population, increasing road congestion, increasing
stress, increasing distractions and decreasing patience.

Oh but don't you know - just take out all facilities and it will be
1950's Pleasantville redux. Amsterdam is a lie, don't you know.




That's right. If we do that and everyone rides in traffic, we'll all be
just as happy as the motorists.
And imagine how safe!

In article
,
Frank Krygowski wrote:

On Aug 13, 1:29Â*pm, Michael Press wrote:
In article ,
Â*Frank Krygowski wrote:

Michael Press wrote:
In ,
Â* Frank Â*wrote:

Michael Press wrote:

Then retract your assertion.

Hmm. Â*I don't remember seeing proof that I should.

The proof is that responsible investigators
provide evidence of their claims.

They supply evidence of _every_ assertion they ever make? Â*Um... Where's
your evidence for that claim? Â*;-)

They provide evidence or proof as a matter of course,
and when they do not, supply evidence or proof when asked.

That's quite an assertion. Please post the evidence that it's true.

Do you stand by your assertion or retract it?
Will you provide support if you stand by it?

--
Michael Press

Jay Beattie wrote:
"Duane Hebert" wrote in message
...
On 8/14/2011 1:54 AM, Dan O wrote:
Riding bike is nothing like driving car. Vehicular cycling advocates
would unreasonably constrain and regulate my activities to take nearly
all of the fun out it (the #1 thing that makes me ride) - and for what? I
take full responsibility for my actions. Riding bike is nothing like
driving car.

I was riding yesterday afternoon in the right lane of a 4 lane two way
street. Two lanes going each way. A car behind me passed on the left
nearly clipping me and cut back in front of me, switched on his blinker
and took a sharp right. Guess he couldn't afford to wait the 12 seconds
to get to the turn. No bike lane, no path just riding on the road pretty
much in the lane. This doesn't happen every day but it's also not
"vanishingly rare" as the VC guys like to say.

This is not that uncommon for me riding downtown in certain areas (NW 14th
for the locals -- shopper's hell). I now plan for it, but still don't
believe it -- that and people pulling out from particular streets. What I
have noticed lately is that cars will pass me at virtually any cost -- to me
or to them or to on-coming traffic. I'll take the lane in a Frank-approved
manner, and cars will cross the center line and squeeze out on-coming
motorists and me. Patience has waned to an all-time low, IMO -- and I'm a
pretty fast rider and never slowing anyone by more than a few miles under
the speed limit. You wonder if there is any way this could possible get
better with an increasing population, increasing road congestion, increasing
stress, increasing distractions and decreasing patience.

As T.S. would say, +6.02x10^23

BTW, I love it when they pass at all costs, then I roll back passed at
the next slow point. I figure if they made a hash of passing the first
time, they need more practice to get it right.

--
JS.

On Sat, 13 Aug 2011 19:00:36 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

As far as I know, the LAW's "whites only" amendment was passed in
1894, and was in place until repeal in 1999.

L.A.W.'s death in 1924, and the death of its imitation in 1955, didn't
obviate the need to repeal by-laws passed in the nineteenth century?

I don't give the League founded in 1965 credit for what the 1880-1924
League accomplished, so I don't blame L.A.B. for that League's faults
either.

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at comcast dot net

On 8/14/2011 12:54 AM, Dan O wrote:
On Aug 13, 2:25 pm, "T°m Sherm@n"""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI
$southslope.net" wrote:
On 8/13/2011 11:55 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:

Peter Cole wrote:

[...]
If careless and over-entitled drivers ignore bike lanes and crosswalks
the solution isn't to blame the facilities for lack of clarity or
conspicuity, it is to blame and punish the motorists for their reckless
behavior.

The only cyclist killed in our area last year ran a stop sign at speed,
where a bike trail crosses a road, right in front of a car. A few years
ago, we had a young kid riding without brakes who rode west off the
sidewalk into the side of a truck that was turning right, from north to
east.

We can talk about over-entitled drivers, but in those two instances, and
many others, there's no way the motorist could be expected to defend
against every possible chaotic cyclist move.

That is exactly what Mr. Cole and his ilk appear to be advocating. They
want to be free from all rules, with the responsibility shifted onto
others. Really is a "cyclists as children" attitude, with everywhere
considered a playground.


You're in favor of drivers taking their responsibility seriously,
right?

Yes, along with *all* other road users.

(These examples were raised by Frank, and Peter's response to that,
IIRC, very explicitly did not blame the drivers in such instances as
Frank describes them.)

[...]
Vehicular cycling is a false god. It presumes the existence of "natural
law", and views "accidents" as violations of that law.

The US Constitution is based on English Common Law, which in turn is
based on Natural Law.

You're really not qualified to say much about vehicular cycling. You've
repeatedly mis-characterized what vehicular cyclists say and believe.
You've shown you can't even keep straight yes or no facts, like whether
Forester thinks bikes should be defined as vehicles.

Mr. Cole's real problem with vehicular cycling appears to be that it
treats cyclists as equal road users, while he advocates that cyclists be
a special class, protected by the law, but not assuming any
responsibility in return. Quite a hard sell to other road users, eh?


Riding bike is nothing like driving car. Vehicular cycling advocates
would unreasonably constrain and regulate my activities to take nearly
all of the fun out it (the #1 thing that makes me ride) - and for
what? I take full responsibility for my actions. Riding bike is
nothing like driving car.

But would you place the responsibility on the motorist for a motor
vehicle-cyclist accident, when the motorist was following the long
established rules of right-of-way, while the cyclist was not?

--
Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731°N, 83.985007°W
I am a vehicular cyclist.