Hill problems

Hello all,
I've been road biking for almost a year. I've joined a bike club and
have been participating in club rides at least 3 times a week weather
permitting. I currently do our "C+" rides which are rides between 25 and
30mi. at 13 to 15 mph. I'm trying to improve my fitness to the point where I
can move up to the "B" rides, which are 15 to 17 mph and slightly longer in
mileage. The thing that is killing me is my hill climbing ability. After
about 30mi. my legs seem to refuse to power me up the hills. I'm not over
weight, I'm fat, about 6'1 and 255lbs and dropping. Is there any particular
exercise that I can do to increase my hill climbing ability? I realize it's
probably my weight, but at the lower ride levels, I could make up the
difference in climbing ability, by my blazing speed going down hill, gravity
is definitely my friend on the way down. But the guys and gals that I have
begun riding with now pedal all the time, up hill, down hill, their legs
spin constantly and once a hill is put into the picture I fall back and
can't keep up. Bottom line, is there an exercise out there that will improve
my hill climbing, until I can shed some of this excess fat?

"Larry Hartman" wrote in message
newsR4Ne.4293$_D4.1198@trndny05...
Hello all,
I've been road biking for almost a year. I've joined a bike club and
have been participating in club rides at least 3 times a week weather
permitting. I currently do our "C+" rides which are rides between 25 and
30mi. at 13 to 15 mph. I'm trying to improve my fitness to the point where
I
can move up to the "B" rides, which are 15 to 17 mph and slightly longer
in
mileage. The thing that is killing me is my hill climbing ability. After
about 30mi. my legs seem to refuse to power me up the hills. I'm not over
weight, I'm fat, about 6'1 and 255lbs and dropping. Is there any
particular
exercise that I can do to increase my hill climbing ability? I realize
it's
probably my weight, but at the lower ride levels, I could make up the
difference in climbing ability, by my blazing speed going down hill,
gravity
is definitely my friend on the way down. But the guys and gals that I have
begun riding with now pedal all the time, up hill, down hill, their legs
spin constantly and once a hill is put into the picture I fall back and
can't keep up. Bottom line, is there an exercise out there that will
improve
my hill climbing, until I can shed some of this excess fat?


Sounds like you need to incorporate "table push-aways" into your workout
routine.

Seriously, cycling (especially in the hills) is about power to weight ratio.
Your size is a major handicap when going uphill, and it's unlikely you can
make up the difference on the downhills because we tend to spend more time
climbing than descending.

The more you ride, the stronger you'll get, and you've only been riding a
year so you can anticipate some additional gains in strength (as long as you
ride consistently). But, those will only be marginal gains, compared to
what losing 50 lbs (or more) would do for you.

Fortunately, cycling can help with weight loss - it's a very efficient way
to burn calories. But, you can easily subvert a good exercise program with
a few poor food choices, or by "rewarding" yourself with food after every
ride. "Portion control" is needed, unless you're riding 200+ miles per
week.

A good goal would be to lose 1/2 - 1 lb per week - this can be done via a
modest daily deficit of 250-500 calories. You can achieve this by eating a
little less, or by exercising a little more, or (ideally) by doing a bit of
both.

Best of luck, and keep those pedals turning.

~_-*
....G/ \G
http://www.CycliStats.com
CycliStats - Software for Cyclists

Larry Hartman wrote:
Hello all,
I've been road biking for almost a year. I've joined a bike club and
have been participating in club rides at least 3 times a week weather
permitting. I currently do our "C+" rides which are rides between 25 and
30mi. at 13 to 15 mph. I'm trying to improve my fitness to the point where I
can move up to the "B" rides, which are 15 to 17 mph and slightly longer in
mileage. The thing that is killing me is my hill climbing ability. After
about 30mi. my legs seem to refuse to power me up the hills. I'm not over
weight, I'm fat, about 6'1 and 255lbs and dropping. Is there any particular
exercise that I can do to increase my hill climbing ability? I realize it's
probably my weight, but at the lower ride levels, I could make up the
difference in climbing ability, by my blazing speed going down hill, gravity
is definitely my friend on the way down. But the guys and gals that I have
begun riding with now pedal all the time, up hill, down hill, their legs
spin constantly and once a hill is put into the picture I fall back and
can't keep up. Bottom line, is there an exercise out there that will improve
my hill climbing, until I can shed some of this excess fat?

The only thing that will help you climb hills - is climbing hills. You
should take a page from those riders in the faster group and pedal all
of the time. It'll help you burn calories, improve your cardiovascular
system and toughen up those legs. No more free rides downhill.

In general what you're describing with your legs refusing to cooperate
is a lactic acid build-up. You're not operating aerobically so the
lactic acid doesnt' break down.
http://www.active.com/story.cfm?story_id=6246

If you can keep up the 3x/week schedule, and keep pushing yourself a
little harder each time, you'll see results in both your climbing
ability and weight loss. When you're weight starts approaching 200-210
you'll be an animal. You'll have all of that muscle you gained from
lugging that luggage around - and no more luggage.

Keep up the good work!

R

Larry Hartman wrote:
Hello all,
I've been road biking for almost a year. I've joined a bike club and
have been participating in club rides at least 3 times a week weather
permitting. I currently do our "C+" rides which are rides between 25 and
30mi. at 13 to 15 mph. I'm trying to improve my fitness to the point where I
can move up to the "B" rides, which are 15 to 17 mph and slightly longer in
mileage. The thing that is killing me is my hill climbing ability. After
about 30mi. my legs seem to refuse to power me up the hills. I'm not over
weight, I'm fat, about 6'1 and 255lbs and dropping. Is there any particular
exercise that I can do to increase my hill climbing ability? I realize it's
probably my weight, but at the lower ride levels, I could make up the
difference in climbing ability, by my blazing speed going down hill, gravity
is definitely my friend on the way down. But the guys and gals that I have
begun riding with now pedal all the time, up hill, down hill, their legs
spin constantly and once a hill is put into the picture I fall back and
can't keep up. Bottom line, is there an exercise out there that will improve
my hill climbing, until I can shed some of this excess fat?

The only way to get better on hills is to climb them; and you get
better faster the less you weigh. Sad but unfortunate fact. But you
may not be as effective as you can be at your particular weight. When
you start climbing, how do you climb, do you try to use power and a
high gear, or do you click down to a low gear and try to spin? If you
are not spinning (high cadence), why not? Is it because you go
anaerobic when you try? If that is the case, then doing interval
training to increase your cardio fitness and move your anaerobic zone
further out, etc., could help. Another tip, make sure you do proper
recovery. Stretch after rides, take days off the bike (which you seem
to be doing), etc. Legs that are too tired will not go fast.

It is rare for one to be able to use fast descents to make up for slow
climbs. Take a 3 mile hill. If you can climb it at 10MPH average,
you will take 18 min to climb it. If you do it with a 6MPH average, it
will take 30 minutes. A (very) slow descender might do 15MPH coming
down, so it would take 12 min to descend, while a fast descender doing
30MPH ave would cover it in 6 min. If the slow climber was the fast
descender, that is 36 min. for up and down, while the fast
climber/very slow descender would still take only 30min for the up and
down. Being a very fast descender is only an advantage against
climbers of near equal ability.

- rick 'a fast climber who stays at the back on group climbs'

On Thu, 18 Aug 2005 18:56:35 GMT, "Larry Hartman"
wrote:

Hello all,
I've been road biking for almost a year. I've joined a bike club and
have been participating in club rides at least 3 times a week weather
permitting. I currently do our "C+" rides which are rides between 25 and
30mi. at 13 to 15 mph. I'm trying to improve my fitness to the point where I
can move up to the "B" rides, which are 15 to 17 mph and slightly longer in
mileage. The thing that is killing me is my hill climbing ability. After
about 30mi. my legs seem to refuse to power me up the hills. I'm not over
weight, I'm fat, about 6'1 and 255lbs and dropping. Is there any particular
exercise that I can do to increase my hill climbing ability? I realize it's
probably my weight, but at the lower ride levels, I could make up the
difference in climbing ability, by my blazing speed going down hill, gravity
is definitely my friend on the way down. But the guys and gals that I have
begun riding with now pedal all the time, up hill, down hill, their legs
spin constantly and once a hill is put into the picture I fall back and
can't keep up. Bottom line, is there an exercise out there that will improve
my hill climbing, until I can shed some of this excess fat?


Gary and others gave you excellent advice. But here's some things for the
'hard gainer' type of rider:

1. Make sure you pay attention to the details of hydration, equipment,
clothing and rest and consistent training. Consistency is more important
than -anything- else. The details can really add up. If you fail to hydrate
in the first 20 minutes it may end up affecting you if you've lost more
than 1% of your bodyweight by the 30 mile point.

2. Make sure the bike is tuned up properly and you have a good fit.

3. Find at least ten different methods for riding a hill, including
standing, seated, in the drops, attacking, slaloming, mashing, getting
'light' and over the pedals, and various cadences and combinations of the
above. Learn to use these methods to 'smo-o-o-th' out the hills. Get over
them with as little energy as possible. If you attack at first, but then
let yourself slide from a front position to just near the back so you still
have a wheel to hang onto as you get over the top, then it can be a
psychological boost. Certainly when you're 'training' on a hill it's best
to do it in the saddle. But when you're group riding you want to make it
easier, not harder to get over that hill.

4. Practice various hill types by doing 'hill repeats' on your own. Find a
perfect hill for long pulls, i.e. a 2-4mile hill with a 4% grade with many
places to pull off on sidestreets if you start to redline too much. Find
also a hill that's about 200-300 yds and a 5-8% grade that you can practice
attacking. Then do hill repeats on these if possible.

5. Learn to breath. Remember it's not that we can't get enough oxygen, it's
that we can't get rid of the CO2. As you start to breath harder, do some
sharp exhalations to get rid of that CO2.

6. Be careful how you parcel out your efforts and only occasionally go
'over your head' on a ride. Remember we improve during rest and if you go
too far into your mental reserves too often you may have trouble with
neurologically recovering.

Good luck!

jj

255 lbs is fat.
It's easier said than done but you need to lose tons to improve your
climbing.
Mind you I'm fat myself, 6'2" and about 205lb.

It's easier said than done.

On Thu, 18 Aug 2005 18:56:35 GMT in rec.bicycles.rides, "Larry
Hartman" wrote:

Bottom line, is there an exercise out there that will improve
my hill climbing, until I can shed some of this excess fat?

yep. hill climbing. do intervals on short hills; ride up,
spinning at 90 rpm in low gear, ride down, turn around and ride
back up. repeat 10 times, take a break, and do it 10 more.

do it every day for a month and you will be shocked at how well
you do.

On Fri, 19 Aug 2005 00:34:30 -0800, (Dennis P.
Harris) wrote:

On Thu, 18 Aug 2005 18:56:35 GMT in rec.bicycles.rides, "Larry
Hartman" wrote:

Bottom line, is there an exercise out there that will improve
my hill climbing, until I can shed some of this excess fat?

yep. hill climbing. do intervals on short hills; ride up,
spinning at 90 rpm in low gear, ride down, turn around and ride
back up. repeat 10 times, take a break, and do it 10 more.

do it every day for a month and you will be shocked at how well
you do.

IME, you need two types of hill repeats, maybe even three.

One type is the short steep type, maybe 200, 300 yards, 8%. Attack those
hills and watch your speedometer - do whatever makes you go up them faster,
be it spinning up, mashing, getting in the drops, standing, or a
combination. Attack, attack, attack. Find a course where you have about
10-20 of these types of hills and attack on every hill. You want to really
burn those quads. Once you hit a top speed, try and maintain it over the
top - don't sag - recover on the flat, but keep that speed up.

The second type - again, just my opinion - is the longer hill with a 3-5%
grade, but 2-4 miles in length. Here you want to learn to relax and not
panic, and get in a low gear and just pedal up them efficiently, quiet
upper body, not excessively pulling on the handlebars, weight over the
pedals, stretched out body position, maybe a little forward on the saddle.
You don't want to feel maxed out on any of your systems, breathing should
be steady, not heavy, and legs should feel relaxed - not in attack mode.
You're trying to conserve and relax. I only do two to three repeats on this
type of hill in any one session at this point. (I'm still a beginner).

The third type is shorter, maybe 1 to 1.5 miles, but with some steeps, some
lesser grades, maybe even a little downhill. Here you want to just get up
that hill fast, controlled breathing, but you want to be breathing hard.
You're not doing the emphasis on relaxing that you need on the 2-4 mile
hills, and you're not really overtly attacking. Try to ride it in the
saddle. Pick a hill that takes you about 12 minutes to get up, and then do
repeats and try to steadily cut down that time, while remaining aerobic,
controlling the breathing, not red-lining, but it should involve very heavy
breathing. I try to do three repeats on hills like this minimum, with
recovery being the time it takes me to go back down.

Now obviously there's a fourth type of hill which is even better, and
that's a combination of any of the above. One of my hardest workouts is a
300yd steep hill with an 8-9% grade that leads up to a long 1/2 mile hill
but with only a grade of about 3% or even less. But I'm nearing the red
zone when I reach the top of the steep and just fight to keep up tempo as I
do the rest of the lighter grade slope. When I hit the lighter grade I try
to crank it like I'm on the flat, and get up to near crusing speed. At the
end of this I'm usually breathing harder than on my type 2 hill. For some
reason I think I get the most benefit from this type. The temptation is to
sag as you reach the false flat, but you have to just fight that.

Just my opinion and what kind of work I do. Actually I don't have much
choice, because where I live is all hills of these types. My thought is if
you have these three types of 'abilities', relaxed, attacking, and
controlled, but hard breathing, then you can string them together and
handle most any other type of hills, I guess outside the major mountains.

In addition to this breakdown, I try to do two other things.

First I try to have many different ways to get up a hill, including
cadence, mashing, spinning, slaloming, mixing standing and seated, and
using side streets to pull off if I redline too much. That way if I get in
trouble, I think to myself I can change something and make it easier, give
one of my systems that having a problem get a little rest or something.

I try never to attempt a hill that's -too much- difficulty for me at my
current level, because I want to maintain that mental attitude like a
fighter that's never been knocked out - i.e., I always win. Even if it's a
temporary illusion, I want to always have a positive experience. I do pick
hills and routes occasionally that are over my head, but not by much. I
only do this about once every couple months. I'll find a course that just
about seems impossible and try to peak my training to ride it. I'll get a
friend to help me by having a sag wagon at various points in case I get in
big trouble. (need extra water, or get bad cramps or something)

The other thing I do is when I'm -riding- the hills versus -training- on
the hills. When -riding- I want to make the hills as -easy- as possible.
Smooth them out. Cheat, slalom, stand for a short period, almost try to
ignore the difficulty. It's mostly mental, but here you're calling on the
various combinations of in your training of cadence tricks, aero position,
changing position, you name it, but the idea is to flatten those hills out,
make them as 'easy' as possible.

When 'training' on a hill, I almost want to make the hill as -hard- as
possible, by staying in the saddle, or by doing the whole hill standing, or
by making attack after attack, and then doing repeats. Again a bit of a
mental trick, but it helps me.

Not sure if I'm right, or if it makes sense. Obviously I suck at doing
hills, that's why I've had to break it up and create various strategies.
;-D

jj

You've already come a long way in your first year. Be patient with
climbing hills. You will improve. And as one person signed this
thread: rick 'a fast climber who stays at the back on group climbs'.
Keep this in mind while on the flats.



Larry Hartman wrote:
Hello all,
I've been road biking for almost a year. I've joined a bike club and
have been participating in club rides at least 3 times a week weather
permitting. I currently do our "C+" rides which are rides between 25 and
30mi. at 13 to 15 mph. I'm trying to improve my fitness to the point where I
can move up to the "B" rides, which are 15 to 17 mph and slightly longer in
mileage. The thing that is killing me is my hill climbing ability. After
about 30mi. my legs seem to refuse to power me up the hills. I'm not over
weight, I'm fat, about 6'1 and 255lbs and dropping. Is there any particular
exercise that I can do to increase my hill climbing ability? I realize it's
probably my weight, but at the lower ride levels, I could make up the
difference in climbing ability, by my blazing speed going down hill, gravity
is definitely my friend on the way down. But the guys and gals that I have
begun riding with now pedal all the time, up hill, down hill, their legs
spin constantly and once a hill is put into the picture I fall back and
can't keep up. Bottom line, is there an exercise out there that will improve
my hill climbing, until I can shed some of this excess fat?

There's two kinds of games with hills. The first is trying to hang with the
other riders on a climb.

The second is a personal challenge: Make it all the way to the top of a big
hill without stopping to rest.

I think this second game is the one preferred by lots of touring riders on
this discussion group. One of the fun things about touring in the U.S. is
that you can meet people who ask you where you're thinking of riding, and
you point toward a certain hill, and they say, "Bicycles can't go up that".

I find that the requirements for getting up a big hill near my limit are
different from the first game: One requirement is strategy: mental
discipline in going real slow and steady. And finding out that I could go
slower than I thought.

And for me riding slow is not just mental, it also demands technique: I've
worked a lot on training non-obvious muscles to keep applying force to the
pedal through the "dead spots" in the stroke cycle. At higher speeds you can
sort of "cover over" the dead spots in the pedaling-circle, and on flat
ground you can coast through them, but going slow up a tough hill exposes
the "truth" about dead spots. (Currently I train for that by doing intervals
where I pedal with only one leg at a time, with my bike on a training stand
in my living room.)

Of course there's also the muscle-training with an interval workout once a
week. Actually I do it indoors, which is less specific than real hills, but
at least that way I do it. Seems to help, since a couple of weeks ago on
my first try in several years I maed it up the toughest hill within three
hours driving from my home. (It's the hill where some of the visiting Euro
pro racers got off and walked).

jet wrote
you need two types of hill repeats, maybe even three.

Yes I think variety is a good thing in training.

A helpful book for serious training is the Cyclist's Training Bible by Joe
Friel. It's targeted for racers, so I mostly ignore the parts that are
focused on sprinting, because I play the second hill game -- though
short-interval workouts are good training for lots more than just sprinting.
Those who play the first hill game of competition on B rides might find that
sprint training is just what they were looking for.

Ken