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Slack Spokes Cause Poor Steering



 
 
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  #21  
Old July 12th 19, 10:18 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
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Posts: 5,870
Default Slack Spokes Cause Poor Steering

On Friday, July 12, 2019 at 1:39:21 PM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, July 12, 2019 at 10:47:25 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, July 12, 2019 at 9:53:07 AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, July 11, 2019 at 6:39:06 AM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
On Sunday, July 7, 2019 at 12:51:05 AM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
These rims are so mechanically strong that they cannot be flexed so the only thing that it can be is the less tight spokes.

I'd say that evenness of tension in a wheel is more important for accurate steering and resistance to handling challenges than outright tension, but that doesn't mean that a certain minimum tension is not hugely desirable, in fact essential to a correctly responding wheel.

I can't say I take kindly to the implication by ticket-punched "engineers" that an unevenly slack set of spokes won't change the distance between the driven or steering hub and the contact patch, both items which will make for uncertain steering. I suggest that the clowns who're propelling themselves down the dead-end of an absolutely indefensible theory check their instinct to hound Tom Kunick and set their brains free to think the subject out before they start shouting "Wrong, wrong, wrong, because it is Tom who says it."

The correct response of the tyre in drive and roadholding, and particularly beyond the limits of roadholding where handling questions become important, in its design assumes a stiff wheel, and in practice suffers if the wheel is not stiffly built.

Handling is what happens when the bike runs out of roadholding either by pilot error or through road conditions. It is, not to put too fine a point on it, the cyclist's ability to save himself and his bicycle when adverse conditions are encountered. If your wheels deliver unexpected inputs because they aren't stiff enough (i.e. indifferent or neutral to tyre inputs), the cyclist's opportunity to effect a handling save decreases.

Slack spokes are simply dangerous unless the cyclist crawls along like the proverbial little old lady who rode her bike only to church on Sundays. It's dumb for anyone to gainsay such an obvious truth, and doubly dumb for a ticket-punched "engineer" looking to embarrass Tom.

Andre Jute
Hey, Jumbo, come back; I retract everything I ever said about Timoshenko

I found that I was totally unable to ride above 32 mph yesterday without the wheels taking a flyer that was difficult to control on a somewhat crowded road. At 36 the bike was almost uncontrollable and slowing to 32 brought it into the realm of being able to keep it in the bike lane.

And this set are the one's I've tightened to the limit. The spokes are simply too long to bring them up to the correct tension.


Do you mean you bottomed-out the threaded portion of the spoke? What is the tension reading? If its below 100kfg, try throwing in some washers or getting shorter spokes.

-- Jay Beattie.


Jay, I have no idea what happened to my tensiometer. And they aren't really needed anyway since all you need is a trained ear and the ability to strike the spoke with your key and listen to the tone.

A couple of the spokes are bottomed out in the thread. That means that you can't make the others tighter and maintain a true and round wheel.


You probably have a wavy spoke bed from a ****ty lay-up which means you have an optimal spoke length that varies by hole. You will need shorter spokes or washers for some holes to get all the spokes equal tension. Testing tension by tone is O.K. for balancing, but telling absolute tension from tone alone would take the Muzi-formula and an oscilloscope. Might as well spend the money on a tensiometer.

OTOH, if the spokes feel super tight, then they are. I use my tensiometer to avoid over-tension and cracking spoke holes and generally wish that I could make the wheel tighter like back in the olden days.

-- Jay Beattie.

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  #22  
Old July 12th 19, 10:44 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_5_]
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Posts: 1,231
Default Slack Spokes Cause Poor Steering

On Friday, July 12, 2019 at 2:18:12 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, July 12, 2019 at 1:39:21 PM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, July 12, 2019 at 10:47:25 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, July 12, 2019 at 9:53:07 AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, July 11, 2019 at 6:39:06 AM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
On Sunday, July 7, 2019 at 12:51:05 AM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
These rims are so mechanically strong that they cannot be flexed so the only thing that it can be is the less tight spokes.

I'd say that evenness of tension in a wheel is more important for accurate steering and resistance to handling challenges than outright tension, but that doesn't mean that a certain minimum tension is not hugely desirable, in fact essential to a correctly responding wheel.

I can't say I take kindly to the implication by ticket-punched "engineers" that an unevenly slack set of spokes won't change the distance between the driven or steering hub and the contact patch, both items which will make for uncertain steering. I suggest that the clowns who're propelling themselves down the dead-end of an absolutely indefensible theory check their instinct to hound Tom Kunick and set their brains free to think the subject out before they start shouting "Wrong, wrong, wrong, because it is Tom who says it."

The correct response of the tyre in drive and roadholding, and particularly beyond the limits of roadholding where handling questions become important, in its design assumes a stiff wheel, and in practice suffers if the wheel is not stiffly built.

Handling is what happens when the bike runs out of roadholding either by pilot error or through road conditions. It is, not to put too fine a point on it, the cyclist's ability to save himself and his bicycle when adverse conditions are encountered. If your wheels deliver unexpected inputs because they aren't stiff enough (i.e. indifferent or neutral to tyre inputs), the cyclist's opportunity to effect a handling save decreases.

Slack spokes are simply dangerous unless the cyclist crawls along like the proverbial little old lady who rode her bike only to church on Sundays. It's dumb for anyone to gainsay such an obvious truth, and doubly dumb for a ticket-punched "engineer" looking to embarrass Tom.

Andre Jute
Hey, Jumbo, come back; I retract everything I ever said about Timoshenko

I found that I was totally unable to ride above 32 mph yesterday without the wheels taking a flyer that was difficult to control on a somewhat crowded road. At 36 the bike was almost uncontrollable and slowing to 32 brought it into the realm of being able to keep it in the bike lane.

And this set are the one's I've tightened to the limit. The spokes are simply too long to bring them up to the correct tension.

Do you mean you bottomed-out the threaded portion of the spoke? What is the tension reading? If its below 100kfg, try throwing in some washers or getting shorter spokes.

-- Jay Beattie.


Jay, I have no idea what happened to my tensiometer. And they aren't really needed anyway since all you need is a trained ear and the ability to strike the spoke with your key and listen to the tone.

A couple of the spokes are bottomed out in the thread. That means that you can't make the others tighter and maintain a true and round wheel.


You probably have a wavy spoke bed from a ****ty lay-up which means you have an optimal spoke length that varies by hole. You will need shorter spokes or washers for some holes to get all the spokes equal tension. Testing tension by tone is O.K. for balancing, but telling absolute tension from tone alone would take the Muzi-formula and an oscilloscope. Might as well spend the money on a tensiometer.

OTOH, if the spokes feel super tight, then they are. I use my tensiometer to avoid over-tension and cracking spoke holes and generally wish that I could make the wheel tighter like back in the olden days.

-- Jay Beattie.


I'm positive you're right. But I watched a YouTube video that popped up and it was talking about carbon fiber handlebars failing. This was all from sharp blows and it was clearly from lay-up errors.

The interesting thing is that the Chinese cheap stuff actually seemed to have fewer problems.

Then as a kicker, they had bisected a couple of carbon rims. The Chinese rim looked pretty clean and the Enve (high priced American spread) had several voids in it.

I can't imagine how they can make carbon rims without an irregular spoke bed. But you can use spokes with deep enough spoke threading so that it corrects for these sorts of irregularities.

  #23  
Old July 13th 19, 12:09 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,421
Default Slack Spokes Cause Poor Steering

On Fri, 12 Jul 2019 09:55:05 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Thursday, July 11, 2019 at 8:20:29 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Thursday, July 11, 2019 at 9:39:06 AM UTC-4, Andre Jute wrote:
On Sunday, July 7, 2019 at 12:51:05 AM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
These rims are so mechanically strong that they cannot be flexed so the only thing that it can be is the less tight spokes.

I'd say that evenness of tension in a wheel is more important for accurate steering and resistance to handling challenges than outright tension, but that doesn't mean that a certain minimum tension is not hugely desirable, in fact essential to a correctly responding wheel.

I can't say I take kindly to the implication by ticket-punched "engineers" that an unevenly slack set of spokes won't change the distance between the driven or steering hub and the contact patch, both items which will make for uncertain steering. I suggest that the clowns who're propelling themselves down the dead-end of an absolutely indefensible theory check their instinct to hound Tom Kunick and set their brains free to think the subject out before they start shouting "Wrong, wrong, wrong, because it is Tom who says it."


What Tom claimed isn't wrong because Tom says it. It's simply wrong. Less tension
in a wheel's spokes do not measurably change the stiffness of the wheel. (And
Tom said nothing about uneven tensions. That's a Jutian smoke screen.)

From https://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/wheel_index.html

"1. Does stiffness vary with spoke tension? Some believe that a wheel built with tighter spokes is stiffer. It is not. Wheel stiffness does not vary significantly with spoke tension unless a spoke becomes totally slack."

Detailed measurements are given for confirmation, meaning this is fact, not
"indefensible theory." Although anyone who can read and understand a stress-
strain curve should be able to figure it out without the test measurements.

- Frank Krygowski


Please do not give me this crap about "detailed measurements" when I can actually push the wheel with softer spokes over to the side whereas the clincher with tight spokes does not move.


But Tom, you were bragging about the wonderfully cheap Chinese made
carbon fiber wheels... And now you are complaining about the same
wonderfully cheap Chinese made wheels.

It says a great deal about your judgment?
--
cheers,

John B.

  #24  
Old July 13th 19, 03:59 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_2_]
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Posts: 7,511
Default Slack Spokes Cause Poor Steering

On Friday, July 12, 2019 at 5:18:12 PM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, July 12, 2019 at 1:39:21 PM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, July 12, 2019 at 10:47:25 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, July 12, 2019 at 9:53:07 AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, July 11, 2019 at 6:39:06 AM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
On Sunday, July 7, 2019 at 12:51:05 AM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
These rims are so mechanically strong that they cannot be flexed so the only thing that it can be is the less tight spokes.

I'd say that evenness of tension in a wheel is more important for accurate steering and resistance to handling challenges than outright tension, but that doesn't mean that a certain minimum tension is not hugely desirable, in fact essential to a correctly responding wheel.

I can't say I take kindly to the implication by ticket-punched "engineers" that an unevenly slack set of spokes won't change the distance between the driven or steering hub and the contact patch, both items which will make for uncertain steering. I suggest that the clowns who're propelling themselves down the dead-end of an absolutely indefensible theory check their instinct to hound Tom Kunick and set their brains free to think the subject out before they start shouting "Wrong, wrong, wrong, because it is Tom who says it."

The correct response of the tyre in drive and roadholding, and particularly beyond the limits of roadholding where handling questions become important, in its design assumes a stiff wheel, and in practice suffers if the wheel is not stiffly built.

Handling is what happens when the bike runs out of roadholding either by pilot error or through road conditions. It is, not to put too fine a point on it, the cyclist's ability to save himself and his bicycle when adverse conditions are encountered. If your wheels deliver unexpected inputs because they aren't stiff enough (i.e. indifferent or neutral to tyre inputs), the cyclist's opportunity to effect a handling save decreases.

Slack spokes are simply dangerous unless the cyclist crawls along like the proverbial little old lady who rode her bike only to church on Sundays. It's dumb for anyone to gainsay such an obvious truth, and doubly dumb for a ticket-punched "engineer" looking to embarrass Tom.

Andre Jute
Hey, Jumbo, come back; I retract everything I ever said about Timoshenko

I found that I was totally unable to ride above 32 mph yesterday without the wheels taking a flyer that was difficult to control on a somewhat crowded road. At 36 the bike was almost uncontrollable and slowing to 32 brought it into the realm of being able to keep it in the bike lane.

And this set are the one's I've tightened to the limit. The spokes are simply too long to bring them up to the correct tension.

Do you mean you bottomed-out the threaded portion of the spoke? What is the tension reading? If its below 100kfg, try throwing in some washers or getting shorter spokes.

-- Jay Beattie.


Jay, I have no idea what happened to my tensiometer. And they aren't really needed anyway since all you need is a trained ear and the ability to strike the spoke with your key and listen to the tone.

A couple of the spokes are bottomed out in the thread. That means that you can't make the others tighter and maintain a true and round wheel.


You probably have a wavy spoke bed from a ****ty lay-up which means you have an optimal spoke length that varies by hole. You will need shorter spokes or washers for some holes to get all the spokes equal tension. Testing tension by tone is O.K. for balancing, but telling absolute tension from tone alone would take the Muzi-formula and an oscilloscope. Might as well spend the money on a tensiometer.


Well, your tensiometer will probably cost more than $50. You can buy an
electronic tuner for less than $10 and use this site: https://www.sheldonbrown.com/spoke-pitch.html
Then you can use the tuner for, um, tuning things.

Of course, I don't use cutting-edge AKA fragile equipment. So I gauge my spoke
tension by hand, comparing with other wheels - mostly, ones I've built. Since
I've got probably five electronic tuners in the house, those would be my next
step if I felt the need.

BTW, Tom, I have used washers to fix problems with spoke length. It can work.

- Frank Krygowski
  #25  
Old July 13th 19, 04:31 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Ralph Barone[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 853
Default Slack Spokes Cause Poor Steering

Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Friday, July 12, 2019 at 5:18:12 PM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, July 12, 2019 at 1:39:21 PM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, July 12, 2019 at 10:47:25 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, July 12, 2019 at 9:53:07 AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, July 11, 2019 at 6:39:06 AM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
On Sunday, July 7, 2019 at 12:51:05 AM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
These rims are so mechanically strong that they cannot be flexed so
the only thing that it can be is the less tight spokes.

I'd say that evenness of tension in a wheel is more important for
accurate steering and resistance to handling challenges than
outright tension, but that doesn't mean that a certain minimum
tension is not hugely desirable, in fact essential to a correctly responding wheel.

I can't say I take kindly to the implication by ticket-punched
"engineers" that an unevenly slack set of spokes won't change the
distance between the driven or steering hub and the contact patch,
both items which will make for uncertain steering. I suggest that
the clowns who're propelling themselves down the dead-end of an absolutely
indefensible theory check their instinct to hound Tom Kunick and set
their brains free to think the subject out before they start
shouting "Wrong, wrong, wrong, because it is Tom who says it."

The correct response of the tyre in drive and roadholding, and
particularly beyond the limits of roadholding where handling
questions become important, in its design assumes a stiff wheel, and
in practice suffers if the wheel is not stiffly built.

Handling is what happens when the bike runs out of roadholding
either by pilot error or through road conditions. It is, not to put
too fine a point on it, the cyclist's ability to save himself and
his bicycle when adverse conditions are encountered. If your wheels
deliver unexpected inputs because they aren't stiff enough (i.e.
indifferent or neutral to tyre inputs), the cyclist's opportunity to
effect a handling save decreases.

Slack spokes are simply dangerous unless the cyclist crawls along
like the proverbial little old lady who rode her bike only to church
on Sundays. It's dumb for anyone to gainsay such an obvious truth,
and doubly dumb for a ticket-punched "engineer" looking to embarrass Tom.

Andre Jute
Hey, Jumbo, come back; I retract everything I ever said about Timoshenko

I found that I was totally unable to ride above 32 mph yesterday
without the wheels taking a flyer that was difficult to control on a
somewhat crowded road. At 36 the bike was almost uncontrollable and
slowing to 32 brought it into the realm of being able to keep it in the bike lane.

And this set are the one's I've tightened to the limit. The spokes
are simply too long to bring them up to the correct tension.

Do you mean you bottomed-out the threaded portion of the spoke? What
is the tension reading? If its below 100kfg, try throwing in some
washers or getting shorter spokes.

-- Jay Beattie.

Jay, I have no idea what happened to my tensiometer. And they aren't
really needed anyway since all you need is a trained ear and the
ability to strike the spoke with your key and listen to the tone.

A couple of the spokes are bottomed out in the thread. That means that
you can't make the others tighter and maintain a true and round wheel.


You probably have a wavy spoke bed from a ****ty lay-up which means you
have an optimal spoke length that varies by hole. You will need shorter
spokes or washers for some holes to get all the spokes equal tension.
Testing tension by tone is O.K. for balancing, but telling absolute
tension from tone alone would take the Muzi-formula and an oscilloscope.
Might as well spend the money on a tensiometer.


Well, your tensiometer will probably cost more than $50. You can buy an
electronic tuner for less than $10 and use this site:
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/spoke-pitch.html
Then you can use the tuner for, um, tuning things.

Of course, I don't use cutting-edge AKA fragile equipment. So I gauge my spoke
tension by hand, comparing with other wheels - mostly, ones I've built. Since
I've got probably five electronic tuners in the house, those would be my next
step if I felt the need.

BTW, Tom, I have used washers to fix problems with spoke length. It can work.

- Frank Krygowski


Tuning by pitch may work fine in a “zero cross” wheel, but I found it
rather challenging in a 3 cross wheel, since tapping one spoke seems to
make half the wheel ring.

  #26  
Old July 13th 19, 07:03 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Mike A Schwab
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 443
Default Slack Spokes Cause Poor Steering

On Friday, July 12, 2019 at 9:18:12 PM UTC, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, July 12, 2019 at 1:39:21 PM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, July 12, 2019 at 10:47:25 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, July 12, 2019 at 9:53:07 AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, July 11, 2019 at 6:39:06 AM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
On Sunday, July 7, 2019 at 12:51:05 AM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
These rims are so mechanically strong that they cannot be flexed so the only thing that it can be is the less tight spokes.

I'd say that evenness of tension in a wheel is more important for accurate steering and resistance to handling challenges than outright tension, but that doesn't mean that a certain minimum tension is not hugely desirable, in fact essential to a correctly responding wheel.

I can't say I take kindly to the implication by ticket-punched "engineers" that an unevenly slack set of spokes won't change the distance between the driven or steering hub and the contact patch, both items which will make for uncertain steering. I suggest that the clowns who're propelling themselves down the dead-end of an absolutely indefensible theory check their instinct to hound Tom Kunick and set their brains free to think the subject out before they start shouting "Wrong, wrong, wrong, because it is Tom who says it."

The correct response of the tyre in drive and roadholding, and particularly beyond the limits of roadholding where handling questions become important, in its design assumes a stiff wheel, and in practice suffers if the wheel is not stiffly built.

Handling is what happens when the bike runs out of roadholding either by pilot error or through road conditions. It is, not to put too fine a point on it, the cyclist's ability to save himself and his bicycle when adverse conditions are encountered. If your wheels deliver unexpected inputs because they aren't stiff enough (i.e. indifferent or neutral to tyre inputs), the cyclist's opportunity to effect a handling save decreases.

Slack spokes are simply dangerous unless the cyclist crawls along like the proverbial little old lady who rode her bike only to church on Sundays. It's dumb for anyone to gainsay such an obvious truth, and doubly dumb for a ticket-punched "engineer" looking to embarrass Tom.

Andre Jute
Hey, Jumbo, come back; I retract everything I ever said about Timoshenko

I found that I was totally unable to ride above 32 mph yesterday without the wheels taking a flyer that was difficult to control on a somewhat crowded road. At 36 the bike was almost uncontrollable and slowing to 32 brought it into the realm of being able to keep it in the bike lane.

And this set are the one's I've tightened to the limit. The spokes are simply too long to bring them up to the correct tension.

Do you mean you bottomed-out the threaded portion of the spoke? What is the tension reading? If its below 100kfg, try throwing in some washers or getting shorter spokes.

-- Jay Beattie.


Jay, I have no idea what happened to my tensiometer. And they aren't really needed anyway since all you need is a trained ear and the ability to strike the spoke with your key and listen to the tone.

A couple of the spokes are bottomed out in the thread. That means that you can't make the others tighter and maintain a true and round wheel.


You probably have a wavy spoke bed from a ****ty lay-up which means you have an optimal spoke length that varies by hole. You will need shorter spokes or washers for some holes to get all the spokes equal tension. Testing tension by tone is O.K. for balancing, but telling absolute tension from tone alone would take the Muzi-formula and an oscilloscope. Might as well spend the money on a tensiometer.

OTOH, if the spokes feel super tight, then they are. I use my tensiometer to avoid over-tension and cracking spoke holes and generally wish that I could make the wheel tighter like back in the olden days.

-- Jay Beattie.


If *SOME* of the spokes are bottomed out, would loosening them and tightening the spokes on the opposite side move the axle about 1-2 mm and let you get all spokes tight?
  #27  
Old July 13th 19, 08:27 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,231
Default Slack Spokes Cause Poor Steering

On Friday, July 12, 2019 at 4:09:58 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 12 Jul 2019 09:55:05 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Thursday, July 11, 2019 at 8:20:29 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Thursday, July 11, 2019 at 9:39:06 AM UTC-4, Andre Jute wrote:
On Sunday, July 7, 2019 at 12:51:05 AM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
These rims are so mechanically strong that they cannot be flexed so the only thing that it can be is the less tight spokes.

I'd say that evenness of tension in a wheel is more important for accurate steering and resistance to handling challenges than outright tension, but that doesn't mean that a certain minimum tension is not hugely desirable, in fact essential to a correctly responding wheel.

I can't say I take kindly to the implication by ticket-punched "engineers" that an unevenly slack set of spokes won't change the distance between the driven or steering hub and the contact patch, both items which will make for uncertain steering. I suggest that the clowns who're propelling themselves down the dead-end of an absolutely indefensible theory check their instinct to hound Tom Kunick and set their brains free to think the subject out before they start shouting "Wrong, wrong, wrong, because it is Tom who says it."

What Tom claimed isn't wrong because Tom says it. It's simply wrong. Less tension
in a wheel's spokes do not measurably change the stiffness of the wheel. (And
Tom said nothing about uneven tensions. That's a Jutian smoke screen.)

From https://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/wheel_index.html

"1. Does stiffness vary with spoke tension? Some believe that a wheel built with tighter spokes is stiffer. It is not. Wheel stiffness does not vary significantly with spoke tension unless a spoke becomes totally slack."

Detailed measurements are given for confirmation, meaning this is fact, not
"indefensible theory." Although anyone who can read and understand a stress-
strain curve should be able to figure it out without the test measurements.

- Frank Krygowski


Please do not give me this crap about "detailed measurements" when I can actually push the wheel with softer spokes over to the side whereas the clincher with tight spokes does not move.


But Tom, you were bragging about the wonderfully cheap Chinese made
carbon fiber wheels... And now you are complaining about the same
wonderfully cheap Chinese made wheels.

It says a great deal about your judgment?
--
cheers,

John B.


Why must you continually make a fool of yourself? Is it a natural ability of yours? The set of 50 mm deep carbon clinchers are perfect. I can descend at any speed I am capable of doing. It is the tubeless 55 mm wheels that are improperly made I now have a combined mileage on these deep carbon wheels of 1,000 miles. So even though the tubeless set has problems I can still ride them at 32 mph safely and without getting any flats.

Why don't you tell us what you're riding?
  #28  
Old July 13th 19, 08:32 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,231
Default Slack Spokes Cause Poor Steering

On Friday, July 12, 2019 at 7:59:48 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Friday, July 12, 2019 at 5:18:12 PM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, July 12, 2019 at 1:39:21 PM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, July 12, 2019 at 10:47:25 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, July 12, 2019 at 9:53:07 AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, July 11, 2019 at 6:39:06 AM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
On Sunday, July 7, 2019 at 12:51:05 AM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
These rims are so mechanically strong that they cannot be flexed so the only thing that it can be is the less tight spokes.

I'd say that evenness of tension in a wheel is more important for accurate steering and resistance to handling challenges than outright tension, but that doesn't mean that a certain minimum tension is not hugely desirable, in fact essential to a correctly responding wheel.

I can't say I take kindly to the implication by ticket-punched "engineers" that an unevenly slack set of spokes won't change the distance between the driven or steering hub and the contact patch, both items which will make for uncertain steering. I suggest that the clowns who're propelling themselves down the dead-end of an absolutely indefensible theory check their instinct to hound Tom Kunick and set their brains free to think the subject out before they start shouting "Wrong, wrong, wrong, because it is Tom who says it."

The correct response of the tyre in drive and roadholding, and particularly beyond the limits of roadholding where handling questions become important, in its design assumes a stiff wheel, and in practice suffers if the wheel is not stiffly built.

Handling is what happens when the bike runs out of roadholding either by pilot error or through road conditions. It is, not to put too fine a point on it, the cyclist's ability to save himself and his bicycle when adverse conditions are encountered. If your wheels deliver unexpected inputs because they aren't stiff enough (i.e. indifferent or neutral to tyre inputs), the cyclist's opportunity to effect a handling save decreases.

Slack spokes are simply dangerous unless the cyclist crawls along like the proverbial little old lady who rode her bike only to church on Sundays. It's dumb for anyone to gainsay such an obvious truth, and doubly dumb for a ticket-punched "engineer" looking to embarrass Tom.

Andre Jute
Hey, Jumbo, come back; I retract everything I ever said about Timoshenko

I found that I was totally unable to ride above 32 mph yesterday without the wheels taking a flyer that was difficult to control on a somewhat crowded road. At 36 the bike was almost uncontrollable and slowing to 32 brought it into the realm of being able to keep it in the bike lane.

And this set are the one's I've tightened to the limit. The spokes are simply too long to bring them up to the correct tension.

Do you mean you bottomed-out the threaded portion of the spoke? What is the tension reading? If its below 100kfg, try throwing in some washers or getting shorter spokes.

-- Jay Beattie.

Jay, I have no idea what happened to my tensiometer. And they aren't really needed anyway since all you need is a trained ear and the ability to strike the spoke with your key and listen to the tone.

A couple of the spokes are bottomed out in the thread. That means that you can't make the others tighter and maintain a true and round wheel.


You probably have a wavy spoke bed from a ****ty lay-up which means you have an optimal spoke length that varies by hole. You will need shorter spokes or washers for some holes to get all the spokes equal tension. Testing tension by tone is O.K. for balancing, but telling absolute tension from tone alone would take the Muzi-formula and an oscilloscope. Might as well spend the money on a tensiometer.


Well, your tensiometer will probably cost more than $50. You can buy an
electronic tuner for less than $10 and use this site: https://www.sheldonbrown.com/spoke-pitch.html
Then you can use the tuner for, um, tuning things.

Of course, I don't use cutting-edge AKA fragile equipment. So I gauge my spoke
tension by hand, comparing with other wheels - mostly, ones I've built. Since
I've got probably five electronic tuners in the house, those would be my next
step if I felt the need.

BTW, Tom, I have used washers to fix problems with spoke length. It can work.

- Frank Krygowski


Well, a good ear is as good as anything. The tensiometer acts by applying pressure between two points on the spoke and then measuring the deflection. That works FAIRLY well on round spokes since they are all more or less equal but these are aero spokes and much stiffer so the tensiometer reading while giving you an accurate spoke to spoke tension, would be way off on actual tension.

The same problem using a tuner.
  #29  
Old July 13th 19, 08:34 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,231
Default Slack Spokes Cause Poor Steering

On Saturday, July 13, 2019 at 11:03:47 AM UTC-7, Mike A Schwab wrote:
On Friday, July 12, 2019 at 9:18:12 PM UTC, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, July 12, 2019 at 1:39:21 PM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, July 12, 2019 at 10:47:25 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, July 12, 2019 at 9:53:07 AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, July 11, 2019 at 6:39:06 AM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
On Sunday, July 7, 2019 at 12:51:05 AM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
These rims are so mechanically strong that they cannot be flexed so the only thing that it can be is the less tight spokes.

I'd say that evenness of tension in a wheel is more important for accurate steering and resistance to handling challenges than outright tension, but that doesn't mean that a certain minimum tension is not hugely desirable, in fact essential to a correctly responding wheel.

I can't say I take kindly to the implication by ticket-punched "engineers" that an unevenly slack set of spokes won't change the distance between the driven or steering hub and the contact patch, both items which will make for uncertain steering. I suggest that the clowns who're propelling themselves down the dead-end of an absolutely indefensible theory check their instinct to hound Tom Kunick and set their brains free to think the subject out before they start shouting "Wrong, wrong, wrong, because it is Tom who says it."

The correct response of the tyre in drive and roadholding, and particularly beyond the limits of roadholding where handling questions become important, in its design assumes a stiff wheel, and in practice suffers if the wheel is not stiffly built.

Handling is what happens when the bike runs out of roadholding either by pilot error or through road conditions. It is, not to put too fine a point on it, the cyclist's ability to save himself and his bicycle when adverse conditions are encountered. If your wheels deliver unexpected inputs because they aren't stiff enough (i.e. indifferent or neutral to tyre inputs), the cyclist's opportunity to effect a handling save decreases.

Slack spokes are simply dangerous unless the cyclist crawls along like the proverbial little old lady who rode her bike only to church on Sundays. It's dumb for anyone to gainsay such an obvious truth, and doubly dumb for a ticket-punched "engineer" looking to embarrass Tom.

Andre Jute
Hey, Jumbo, come back; I retract everything I ever said about Timoshenko

I found that I was totally unable to ride above 32 mph yesterday without the wheels taking a flyer that was difficult to control on a somewhat crowded road. At 36 the bike was almost uncontrollable and slowing to 32 brought it into the realm of being able to keep it in the bike lane.

And this set are the one's I've tightened to the limit. The spokes are simply too long to bring them up to the correct tension.

Do you mean you bottomed-out the threaded portion of the spoke? What is the tension reading? If its below 100kfg, try throwing in some washers or getting shorter spokes.

-- Jay Beattie.

Jay, I have no idea what happened to my tensiometer. And they aren't really needed anyway since all you need is a trained ear and the ability to strike the spoke with your key and listen to the tone.

A couple of the spokes are bottomed out in the thread. That means that you can't make the others tighter and maintain a true and round wheel.


You probably have a wavy spoke bed from a ****ty lay-up which means you have an optimal spoke length that varies by hole. You will need shorter spokes or washers for some holes to get all the spokes equal tension. Testing tension by tone is O.K. for balancing, but telling absolute tension from tone alone would take the Muzi-formula and an oscilloscope. Might as well spend the money on a tensiometer.

OTOH, if the spokes feel super tight, then they are. I use my tensiometer to avoid over-tension and cracking spoke holes and generally wish that I could make the wheel tighter like back in the olden days.

-- Jay Beattie.


If *SOME* of the spokes are bottomed out, would loosening them and tightening the spokes on the opposite side move the axle about 1-2 mm and let you get all spokes tight?


Mike, the wheel is round with these spokes bottomed out. Loosening them and tightening the other side would take the rim out of round.
  #30  
Old July 13th 19, 11:40 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,421
Default Slack Spokes Cause Poor Steering

On Sat, 13 Jul 2019 12:27:08 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Friday, July 12, 2019 at 4:09:58 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 12 Jul 2019 09:55:05 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Thursday, July 11, 2019 at 8:20:29 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Thursday, July 11, 2019 at 9:39:06 AM UTC-4, Andre Jute wrote:
On Sunday, July 7, 2019 at 12:51:05 AM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
These rims are so mechanically strong that they cannot be flexed so the only thing that it can be is the less tight spokes.

I'd say that evenness of tension in a wheel is more important for accurate steering and resistance to handling challenges than outright tension, but that doesn't mean that a certain minimum tension is not hugely desirable, in fact essential to a correctly responding wheel.

I can't say I take kindly to the implication by ticket-punched "engineers" that an unevenly slack set of spokes won't change the distance between the driven or steering hub and the contact patch, both items which will make for uncertain steering. I suggest that the clowns who're propelling themselves down the dead-end of an absolutely indefensible theory check their instinct to hound Tom Kunick and set their brains free to think the subject out before they start shouting "Wrong, wrong, wrong, because it is Tom who says it."

What Tom claimed isn't wrong because Tom says it. It's simply wrong. Less tension
in a wheel's spokes do not measurably change the stiffness of the wheel. (And
Tom said nothing about uneven tensions. That's a Jutian smoke screen.)

From https://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/wheel_index.html

"1. Does stiffness vary with spoke tension? Some believe that a wheel built with tighter spokes is stiffer. It is not. Wheel stiffness does not vary significantly with spoke tension unless a spoke becomes totally slack."

Detailed measurements are given for confirmation, meaning this is fact, not
"indefensible theory." Although anyone who can read and understand a stress-
strain curve should be able to figure it out without the test measurements.

- Frank Krygowski

Please do not give me this crap about "detailed measurements" when I can actually push the wheel with softer spokes over to the side whereas the clincher with tight spokes does not move.


But Tom, you were bragging about the wonderfully cheap Chinese made
carbon fiber wheels... And now you are complaining about the same
wonderfully cheap Chinese made wheels.

It says a great deal about your judgment?
--
cheers,

John B.


Why must you continually make a fool of yourself? Is it a natural ability of yours? The set of 50 mm deep carbon clinchers are perfect. I can descend at any speed I am capable of doing. It is the tubeless 55 mm wheels that are improperly made I now have a combined mileage on these deep carbon wheels of 1,000 miles. So even though the tubeless set has problems I can still ride them at 32 mph safely and without getting any flats.

Why don't you tell us what you're riding?


I have two elderly, what is usually called "classic", steel frame
bicycles and one I built, about 10 years ago using the lightest
Columbus steel tubing in the "classic" sizes.

So far, no frame failures. On one bike I have a pair of the cheapest
Shimano wheels. It originally had a pair of up-market wheels and I
broke a spoke and they went out of round so I bought the cheap
Shimanos as a stopgap until I fixed the older set, and maybe 5 years
later the cheap Shimanos are still round and not wobbling so I've
never bothered to change back.

Buy why ask? Do you somehow believe that a set of plastic wheels makes
you a better person? More intelligent? Closer to God?
--
cheers,

John B.

 




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