pedal wrench, again

On Thu, 11 Jun 2015 22:35:10 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Thu, 11 Jun 2015 19:45:17 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

If you heat anything then heat the crank arm NOT the
pedal spindle. Heating the spindle will make it expand
and thus create an even tighter fit.

I beg to differ somewhat:
Aluminum expands (linearly) at:
23 micro-meters/K
while high carbon steel expands:
11 micro-meters/K
If you heat both the crank arm and pedal the same amount, the aluminum
will expand faster than the steel, creating a gap. Granted, the gap
will be larger and easier to break loose if the steel is kept near
room temperature, but either way, there will be a gap enlargement when
heated, not a tightening of the fit.

Note: When you heat the aluminum crank arm, the hole diameter
expands. How it works:
http://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/12599/will-a-hole-cut-into-a-metal-disk-expand-or-shrink-when-the-disc-is-heated

Apparently heat is a more exciting subject than golf :-)

I would offer one caveat. Aluminum when heated does not change color.
thus, the first indication one has that he has heated his slick,
shiny, aluminum pedal arm too hot is when it literally falls on the
floor.

For those of us who do not speak the Queen's own, in USian English it
is called a "gotcha" :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

Anyway it has a wrench opening on one side which is
15 mm wide, and a ring of corresponding size on the
other side.

http://www.clasohlson.com/se/Blockny...ft/Pr407232020

It's a "combination wrench" in English (at least in the U.S.).

On 6/12/2015 2:21 AM, Andre Jute wrote:
On Friday, June 12, 2015 at 4:19:36 AM UTC+1, Emanuel Berg wrote:
Andre Jute writes:

Ridealot is right; I spoke carelessly. Heat the
crank above where the pedal axle enters it. You want
the metal of the crank to expand around the pedal
axle and loosen the bond. There isn't enough enough
metal area on the crank to heat the other side
without heating the pedal axle even more.

About the hammer -- your question above -- use
something around 3 pounds, 1.5kg. It's not science,
it is brute force.

OK! I'm very excited to try these methods. I hope to
report back soon the fallout.

--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

One more thing. I haven't read all this thread, so I don't know if you hope to use the components again, but any parts you've heated will lose their temper and should be chucked out. That will include the crank and at least the pedal axle, very likely the rest of the axle too, and the crank bolt too perhaps, if you're slow and the heat spreads.

Andre Jute
Home heating of cycle components is tempering in reverse... tempted to make a pun about tampering


The possibility of temper loss depends very much on the highest
temperature reached and, to a degree, the amount of time at that
temperature.

For example, to do serious damage to a steel pedal spindle in this
situation, you'd probably have to melt the aluminum crank. And damaging
the crank bolt by heating the pedal end of the crank is even more
nonsensical.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Emanuel Berg wrote:
:John B. writes:

: I'm not sure what a "block key" is but a proper 15
: or 17mm wrench from a reliable supplier, Stanley
: Proto J3115M Angle Open End Wrench 15mm, is about
: US$25.35, again from Amazon with free shipping.

:Oh!

:It is "blocknyckel" in Swedish which is literally
:"block key", so I thought it was the same in English.

:Anyway it has a wrench opening on one side which is
:15 mm wide, and a ring of corresponding size on the
ther side.

That is, in american english 'a combination wrench' -- open end wrench
on one end, and a box wrench on the other. The Brits would call the
closed end a ring spanner, not sure what they call the whole thing.

The real advantage of peal wrenches is that they're skinny, so they
fit between the crank and the pedal body, which a regular wrench can't
always.

--
sig 37

On 6/12/2015 6:09 AM, David Scheidt wrote:
Emanuel Berg wrote:
:John B. writes:

: I'm not sure what a "block key" is but a proper 15
: or 17mm wrench from a reliable supplier, Stanley
: Proto J3115M Angle Open End Wrench 15mm, is about
: US$25.35, again from Amazon with free shipping.

:Oh!

:It is "blocknyckel" in Swedish which is literally
:"block key", so I thought it was the same in English.

:Anyway it has a wrench opening on one side which is
:15 mm wide, and a ring of corresponding size on the
ther side.

That is, in american english 'a combination wrench' -- open end wrench
on one end, and a box wrench on the other. The Brits would call the
closed end a ring spanner, not sure what they call the whole thing.

The real advantage of peal wrenches is that they're skinny, so they
fit between the crank and the pedal body, which a regular wrench can't
always.

The good pedal wrenches have a long padded handle so you can get a lot
of leverage.

A Park PW-4 and a propane torch would likely solve the o.p.'s problem.
It's unclear why he is so reluctant to use the proper tools.

On Friday, June 12, 2015 at 1:37:51 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/12/2015 2:21 AM, Andre Jute wrote:
On Friday, June 12, 2015 at 4:19:36 AM UTC+1, Emanuel Berg wrote:
Andre Jute writes:

Ridealot is right; I spoke carelessly. Heat the
crank above where the pedal axle enters it. You want
the metal of the crank to expand around the pedal
axle and loosen the bond. There isn't enough enough
metal area on the crank to heat the other side
without heating the pedal axle even more.

About the hammer -- your question above -- use
something around 3 pounds, 1.5kg. It's not science,
it is brute force.

OK! I'm very excited to try these methods. I hope to
report back soon the fallout.

--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

One more thing. I haven't read all this thread, so I don't know if you hope to use the components again, but any parts you've heated will lose their temper and should be chucked out. That will include the crank and at least the pedal axle, very likely the rest of the axle too, and the crank bolt too perhaps, if you're slow and the heat spreads.

Andre Jute
Home heating of cycle components is tempering in reverse... tempted to make a pun about tampering


The possibility of temper loss depends very much on the highest
temperature reached and, to a degree, the amount of time at that
temperature.

Why, Franki-boy, that's what I said: "if you're slow and the heat spreads". But do tell us, Franki-boy, how you suggest the OP, who clearly doesn't possess a fully fitted-up materials laboratory, should determine whether the component has been heated enough to interfere with its usability. I'm looking forward to you floundering ever deeper into the morass of your own reckless stupidity.

For example, to do serious damage to a steel pedal spindle in this
situation, you'd probably have to melt the aluminum crank.

Thank you, Franki-boy, but a reliable engineer, Jeff Liebermann, already told us that.

And damaging
the crank bolt by heating the pedal end of the crank is even more
nonsensical.

Aw, gee. Tell us then, Franki-boy, do you imagine the OP knows which is the perfect crank-heating implement to use, and owns it as part of the equipment in that well-stocked engineering lab in his ivory tower? Well, of course, you don't have to imagine, you *know*, because you claim to know for a fact that everything everywhere in the world is *exactly* as on your street corner. You won't understand this, because your mind runs on railroad tracks to every horizon, but this is another failure of your imagination. I, on the other hand, because I have experience of using a blowtorch *as an amateur*, have no difficulty in imagining Emanuel applying a a great big plumber's blowtorch to the crank and the heat spreading up from there very quickly into the crank bolt, even as the aluminium crank wilts without warning.

I hold in my left hand an elegant pencil-type catalytic gas soldering iron I use for doing electronics (which your spiritual bully-compatriots in the Magnequest Scum used to sneer at until they ran away), clearly not big enough to heat a crank. In my right hand I hold a blowtorch head and the gas canister for it, used about fifteen years ago for thawing frozen pipes, since lagged. I have nothing in between, and most households and cyclists won't have even that much. But, of the two, the overwhelming blowtorch head and canisters are available off the shelves of all three local hardware stores....

You're an idiot, Franki-boy, and you'd be smart to return to pretending not to read my posts, or you'll again be tempted to make a pompous fool of yourself.

- Frank Krygowski

What an ignorant jerk.

To the OP: The safest thing after you've heated aluminium or steel loadbearing components with a torch is to throw them out as suspect.

Andre Jute

(Note: Here, I reply to several posts!)

James writes:

Heat the crank around the pedal eye, and just before
trying to shift the pedal, squirt a cooling agent at
the pedal spindle - even Aerostart would do provided
you turn off the open flame first - or better you
can buy a can of freeze spray from electronics
supplies shops.

http://www.crcindustries.com.au/freeze-spray

This is interesting but at the moment a bit advanced.

Especially since in another post another user said
heat could ruin the crank. If it does, it would be
like burning down the house to kill the rats, because
I don't think there is anything wrong with the crank
or crankset. On the other hand, if I don't get away
that defect pedal and axle, I might as well go for
broke since the bike is unusable anyway.

Now I've received the same piece of advice from two
shop owners - one said heat gun, the other LPG
heaters. Somehow I doubt they ruin their cranks that
way because this is typically done to old bikes (can
be decades old) at the low-end market, and people
don't pay for new crank(sets) on these OPC bikes to
get a new pedal. They buy a new bike or "find" one and
then get it the missing spoke instead... Granted,
those pros are old hands at this. (Perhaps I'll get
the equipment and have them show the procedure
first time.)

However I'll first try the big hammer (swipe) approach
since that I understand. Maybe I can use the ring hole
to make a "ball" with nuts to increase the hit area...

As for not wanting to get proper tools (again another
post said that) that's exactly what I would like to
do, and what I set out to do the other day, but my
15mm wrenches are already slim enough to get inside,
so the only reason I'd get a dedicated pedal key is
the increased length and leverage (and perhaps
ergonomics since the wrench doesn't have a soft
handle). As I said, I saw three versions of pedal
wrenches, two of which were ~1.5 the length of my
ordinary key, and the remaining one about the same
length. Because I already put so much force on my
combination key, with no result whatsoever, I don't
think those extra centimeters will be the difference.

Also, I hear that kind of persistent, low-intense
power isn't what I need, but instead an explosive
knock, that will brake it loose. And that sounds
sensible to me not the least in the light of my
failure getting it loose just pulling.

--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

On Fri, 12 Jun 2015 18:05:20 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Thu, 11 Jun 2015 22:35:10 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Thu, 11 Jun 2015 19:45:17 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

If you heat anything then heat the crank arm NOT the
pedal spindle. Heating the spindle will make it expand
and thus create an even tighter fit.

I beg to differ somewhat:
Aluminum expands (linearly) at:
23 micro-meters/K
while high carbon steel expands:
11 micro-meters/K
If you heat both the crank arm and pedal the same amount, the aluminum
will expand faster than the steel, creating a gap. Granted, the gap
will be larger and easier to break loose if the steel is kept near
room temperature, but either way, there will be a gap enlargement when
heated, not a tightening of the fit.

Note: When you heat the aluminum crank arm, the hole diameter
expands. How it works:
http://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/12599/will-a-hole-cut-into-a-metal-disk-expand-or-shrink-when-the-disc-is-heated

Apparently heat is a more exciting subject than golf :-)

I get bored easily. It's also difficult for me to intelligently
discuss a topic about which I know nothing.

I would offer one caveat. Aluminum when heated does not change color.
thus, the first indication one has that he has heated his slick,
shiny, aluminum pedal arm too hot is when it literally falls on the
floor.

Yeah, that can be a problem. An IR thermometer could be used to
monitor the temperature. A common type K thermocouple could also be
used. Aluminum melts at 660C. The nice thing about aluminum is that
its high thermal conductivity spreads the heat out neatly and quickly,
preventing hot spots. One could apply the heat at any point on the
crank and the pedal will still come loose.

For those of us who do not speak the Queen's own, in USian English it
is called a "gotcha" :-)

In English and cycling, nothing is simple.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Sat, 13 Jun 2015 00:14:10 +0100, Phil W Lee
wrote:

"Bertrand" considered Fri, 12
Jun 2015 07:39:04 -0400 the perfect time to write:

Anyway it has a wrench opening on one side which is
15 mm wide, and a ring of corresponding size on the
other side.

http://www.clasohlson.com/se/Blockny...ft/Pr407232020

It's a "combination wrench" in English (at least in the U.S.).

In English English it is a "combination spanner.


Hmmmm... I had though that was "British" English until I met some of
the Scots who worked in the N. Sea, and were subsequently transferred
to Indonesia :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

On 6/12/2015 5:54 PM, Andre Jute wrote:

I, on the other hand, because I have experience of using a blowtorch
*as an amateur*, have no difficulty in imagining Emanuel applying a a
great big plumber's blowtorch to the crank and the heat spreading up
from there very quickly into the crank bolt, even as the aluminium
crank wilts without warning.

...In my right hand I hold a blowtorch head and
the gas canister for it, used about fifteen years ago for thawing frozen
pipes, since lagged. I have nothing in between, and most households and
cyclists won't have even that much. But, of the two, the overwhelming
blowtorch head and canisters are available off the shelves of all three
local hardware stores.

I was assuming that the OP had more intelligence than to melt his crank,
or to heat the aluminum all the way down to the crank bolt when he
intended to simply remove the pedal. IOW, I assumed he'd have more
sense than, say, Jute.

I suppose I should keep in mind that there may be more Jutes out there.

To the OP: The safest thing after you've heated aluminium or steel
loadbearing components with a torch is to throw them out as suspect.

:-) And of course, you should always do the "safest thing," no matter
the expense or likelihood of failure. You can't be too safe!

Should every frame repaired by Andrew & crew be discarded immediately
after the repair? Those guys routinely heat frames with torches.

See http://www.yellowjersey.org/POST_OUT.JPG for just one example.


--
- Frank Krygowski