Cateye Padrone, low battery warning?

On Sun, 14 Jun 2015 07:11:02 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2015-06-13 4:36 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sat, 13 Jun 2015 16:06:29 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

Got a Cateye Padrone speedometer on my MTB. I noticed the little letters
"mph" under the indicate speed are flashing. Not sure whether they
always did, maybe they did. Anyhow, does someone know how these
speedometers indicate a low battery warning or whether they do that at all?

Perhaps you could remove the batteries and measure the terminal
voltage with a voltmeter? CR2032 battery. 3.1v to 3.2v when new. I
replace them in computahs when under 2.9v.

That is very wasteful, like taking two bites out of each apple and then
throwing it away. Discharge is spec'd down to 2V on CR2032 batteries and
I design my electronics accordingly, hoping that others also do that.

Very true. However, there are some reasons that I replace the battery
prematurely. See:
http://amichalec.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/rainbow-pingpong-cr2032-maxell.png
http://datasheet.octopart.com/CR3032-Panasonic-datasheet-9712031.pdf
The inside of the computah tends to be rather warm. Follow the 60C
line to where it starts to plunge. I would call it 2.8v on the graph.
Once the terminal voltage gets anywhere near the knee, it will drop
rather quickly towards zero. I've run some curves on the cheap CR2032
batteries I've been buying on eBay. They suck, usually with a very
rounded knee. I don't know exactly at what voltage the clock/cmos
craps out. I do know that it varies substantially from computah to
computah. I also know that on the way down, some computahs go insane
when the battery voltage is within the "marginal" window.

My main concern is to not get a call a few weeks after I repair a
machine because the clock has stopped or the CMOS settings have
cleared. The batteries cost me about $0.13/ea in quantity, so a
pre-emptive replacement is a worthwhile exercise.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/400817585563

Incidentally, I also do pre-emptive replacements of hard disk drives
after about 5 years. Sure, they can last longer, but if they fail
with an out of date or missing backup, it's a PITA to put it back in
working order. With todays SSD prices, I can also offer a 3x to 5x
performance boost, making a pre-emptive replacement even more
attractive.

The manual is fairly useless, 22MB full of fluff.

http://www.cateye.com/files/manual_d...S-m_ENG_v1.pdf

15 pages of useless setup info.
Cateye Padrone CC-PA100W
If you look on Page 6, you'll see a picture of the big LCD with all
the icons and indicators marked. In the upper left is a battery icon.
It's much like a cell phone battey indicator where it starts out all
black, and changes in sections to just an outline of the battery when
depleted.

Indeed, that thing that looks like a barber shop symbol could mean
battery. Why can't people just write "lo-bat" like in the good old days?

I hate to be the one to point out the obvious, but
internationalization is a problem. You cannot expect buyers to all
read and decode English. In terms of population distribution, it's
not anywhere near a universal language. The trend is towards
iconography, with no alphabetic symbology of any kind. Just look at
the user interface in the Chrome and Firefox browsers for a half way
example. Do not be surprised if future products have no words
anywhere on the device or the user interface.


My guess(tm) is that the flashing mph means that the device is waiting
for your input for some kind of setting that involves mph. Perhaps a
wheel diameter calibration setting.

There isn't any input. The Padrone is simple. You start to ride and it
accumulates trip miles, average speed and so on. At the end of the ride
you look at all that and, after patting yourself on the shoulder, hold
down the button a bit longer to erase. That's all there really is.

Oh... I'm disappointed. I expected exotic features and calculations.
I guess the simplicity is why they don't have a decent manual.

I use this device mostly to gauge mileage and time to make sure I return
in due course. I'd be in the dog house if I'd miss dinner because the
speedometer froze up on me :-)

Carry spare batteries.

Good idea. Although my backpack is already full of spare stuff to the
point where it become difficult to find things in there.

They're small enough to fit. Punch a hole in the cardboard package,
attach a string, and you can easily "fish" the batteries out of the
backpack. Or, you could just measure the voltage and do a pre-emptive
replacement at 2.9V or whatever.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 2015-06-14 8:24 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/14/2015 10:17 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2015-06-13 10:50 PM, John B. wrote:

[...]


My experience with Cateye is that if the display can be seen then it
works. When the display can't be seen change the battery :-)


I guess that's the real battery indicator.


This might change with a wireless since if the sender battery dies the
display battery might be still good, but off hand, I can't remember
that happening. I generally use them until the display no longer is
visible and then change both batteries.


I'll carry spares like Jeff suggested. Hoping it writes the trip miles
into flash memory occasionally so they'd be still there. Often that's
the only way to gauge if I can make it home in time. Trails and even
most long distance bike paths out here have next to nothing in signage.
That is the reason why I equipped both bikes with speedometers.

On a more general note: This problem is one of many examples where the
operator interface of electronics could be much better. So many modern
electronic devices - cyclometers, digital watches, microwaves,
televisions, GPS units, etc. - frequently leave their owners asking "How
the heck do I do..." some fairly routine task.


Some are outright stupid in the user interface. For example, my Canon
printer/scanner/copier. It is from a hardware POV at least a class
better than the Brother model it replaced. But the software doesn't even
come close. When scanning, one has to first dash to the printer, disable
energy saver mode, press scan, press remote, scroll down, press ok. Then
a mad dash to the computer before it times out and hit scan to PDF.
Meshugginah, IMHO. On the Brother they did it right. The printer
automagically recognizes the wish to scan which is bone-simple to
achieve via the office LAN.

Ok, it does have one benefit. People have to get off their keister every
time they want to scan something and do a couple of short sprints. Which
has health benefits.


We have several brands of cyclometers in the house. I change the
batteries once per year, which requires re-calibrating. Each one's
recalibration procedure is different, meaning I have to keep all the
instruction manuals on file, along with close-up glasses to read their
tiny fonts.


Which is one more serious (and stupid) design flaw. Every modern micro
controller has flash memory right on board, at no extra cost.


Oh, and several of those manuals are arcane enough that I've highlighted
text and added notes. The tech guys have made these devices work very
well, but those in charge of communication with humans have a long way
to go.


This requires real user feedback and taking such feedback seriously.
Which is our normal modus operandi in medical device design. But other
markets completely ignore it.

What would be really nice is a configurable device. For example, I'd
prefer having these three items displayed simultaneously: Speed (large
letter size), elapsed miles and time of day (both small size). Other
riders have expressed similar wishes but the usual speedometers can only
display two items at a time. Or auto-scroll which isn't too helpful when
one travels bush paths where the eyes have to remain focused on the terrain.

Got to retire. Then I can build all that custom, along with a central
battery system. After all, in my car I do not have to worry about
changing coin cells or AAA batteries all the time.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 2015-06-14 9:33 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 14 Jun 2015 07:11:02 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2015-06-13 4:36 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sat, 13 Jun 2015 16:06:29 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

Got a Cateye Padrone speedometer on my MTB. I noticed the little letters
"mph" under the indicate speed are flashing. Not sure whether they
always did, maybe they did. Anyhow, does someone know how these
speedometers indicate a low battery warning or whether they do that at all?

Perhaps you could remove the batteries and measure the terminal
voltage with a voltmeter? CR2032 battery. 3.1v to 3.2v when new. I
replace them in computahs when under 2.9v.

That is very wasteful, like taking two bites out of each apple and then
throwing it away. Discharge is spec'd down to 2V on CR2032 batteries and
I design my electronics accordingly, hoping that others also do that.

Very true. However, there are some reasons that I replace the battery
prematurely. See:
http://amichalec.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/rainbow-pingpong-cr2032-maxell.png
http://datasheet.octopart.com/CR3032-Panasonic-datasheet-9712031.pdf
The inside of the computah tends to be rather warm. Follow the 60C
line to where it starts to plunge. I would call it 2.8v on the graph.
Once the terminal voltage gets anywhere near the knee, it will drop
rather quickly towards zero. I've run some curves on the cheap CR2032
batteries I've been buying on eBay. They suck, usually with a very
rounded knee. I don't know exactly at what voltage the clock/cmos
craps out. I do know that it varies substantially from computah to
computah. I also know that on the way down, some computahs go insane
when the battery voltage is within the "marginal" window.


It would be nice if even PCs had a warning when the battery might fail.
It's simple but they don't have it.


My main concern is to not get a call a few weeks after I repair a
machine because the clock has stopped or the CMOS settings have
cleared. The batteries cost me about $0.13/ea in quantity, so a
pre-emptive replacement is a worthwhile exercise.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/400817585563


Since I didn't have anything I needed from Digikey and then the shipping
costs are high I bought some via Amazon this time. Around 15c when
buying 48 cells. I am testing them right now, they are from Instapark
and seem to not quite match Panasonic. Rounded knee as well. Do you know
why that is? Different chemistry?


Incidentally, I also do pre-emptive replacements of hard disk drives
after about 5 years. Sure, they can last longer, but if they fail
with an out of date or missing backup, it's a PITA to put it back in
working order. With todays SSD prices, I can also offer a 3x to 5x
performance boost, making a pre-emptive replacement even more
attractive.


That's one item on my wish list, to add an mSATA drive to my office PC.
Some day.


The manual is fairly useless, 22MB full of fluff.

http://www.cateye.com/files/manual_d...S-m_ENG_v1.pdf

15 pages of useless setup info.
Cateye Padrone CC-PA100W
If you look on Page 6, you'll see a picture of the big LCD with all
the icons and indicators marked. In the upper left is a battery icon.
It's much like a cell phone battey indicator where it starts out all
black, and changes in sections to just an outline of the battery when
depleted.

Indeed, that thing that looks like a barber shop symbol could mean
battery. Why can't people just write "lo-bat" like in the good old days?

I hate to be the one to point out the obvious, but
internationalization is a problem. You cannot expect buyers to all
read and decode English.


Most people would know what lo-bat means. It doesn't take more time to
learn than a barber shop symbol.


... In terms of population distribution, it's
not anywhere near a universal language. ...


Then I wonder how they drive cars. The only one I ever had with
pictograms in the dash (and also my worst one) was a Chrysler. The Audi,
Toyota, Mitsubishu and so on all came with clear-text dashboards. Where
it says "Brake", "Engine", "Oil". Very few pictograms there. The Audi
even has the fuel gauge calling out liters instead of bars. So you know
exactly how much fuel you've got. What a concept!


... The trend is towards
iconography, with no alphabetic symbology of any kind. Just look at
the user interface in the Chrome and Firefox browsers for a half way
example. Do not be surprised if future products have no words
anywhere on the device or the user interface.


Many people (including myself) can't decipher such pictograms. When
buying cars a clear-text dashboard was always high on the "must have" list.

The first order of business when getting a new PC is always to switch
everything possible to classic NT4 display. I can't work with
bonbon-colored pictograms.



My guess(tm) is that the flashing mph means that the device is waiting
for your input for some kind of setting that involves mph. Perhaps a
wheel diameter calibration setting.

There isn't any input. The Padrone is simple. You start to ride and it
accumulates trip miles, average speed and so on. At the end of the ride
you look at all that and, after patting yourself on the shoulder, hold
down the button a bit longer to erase. That's all there really is.

Oh... I'm disappointed. I expected exotic features and calculations.
I guess the simplicity is why they don't have a decent manual.


I love it. The Serfas I had before was overloaded with stuff and
complicated to handle.


I use this device mostly to gauge mileage and time to make sure I return
in due course. I'd be in the dog house if I'd miss dinner because the
speedometer froze up on me :-)

Carry spare batteries.

Good idea. Although my backpack is already full of spare stuff to the
point where it become difficult to find things in there.

They're small enough to fit. Punch a hole in the cardboard package,
attach a string, and you can easily "fish" the batteries out of the
backpack. Or, you could just measure the voltage and do a pre-emptive
replacement at 2.9V or whatever.


I'll put them in the first aid kit. I always carry that. Used it many
times, just never on myself so far. Like when li'l Henry discovered that
a Razor scooter ain't no 29" mountain bike and thus does not like to go
up curbs.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On Sun, 14 Jun 2015 10:06:07 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

It would be nice if even PCs had a warning when the battery might fail.
It's simple but they don't have it.

Not a problem with todays PC's. The battery will last longer than the
computah, especially the Apple MacBook batteries that are glued into
the case. See:
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201624
Your computah has a factory controlled lifetime of exactly 5.0 years
except in California, where it's 7 years. Microsoft is following
Apple's lead and going to a subscription model for Windoze. Kinda
makes Linux look more appealing. Think of this as a giant step
backwards for landfill and eWaste reduction. Worrying about tossing a
cheap battery is minor compared to toss the entire computah.

Since I didn't have anything I needed from Digikey and then the shipping
costs are high I bought some via Amazon this time. Around 15c when
buying 48 cells. I am testing them right now, they are from Instapark
and seem to not quite match Panasonic. Rounded knee as well. Do you know
why that is? Different chemistry?

I'm fairly sure they're lithium and magnesium dioxide. If you measure
the ESR of a nearly discharged cell, you'll find that it's much higher
than the quality cell. That explains the rounded knee. I haven't
bothered to dissect some cells yet,
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/69/CR2032_disassembled.jpg
so I don't really know what's different. Offhand, my guess(tm) is
that the lithium anode is either oxidized from an air leak,
contaminated by something, or contains insufficient lithium. Lithium
is expensive and I think the cheap cell makers are trying to cut
costs. If I have time next week, I'll do a cell autopsy.

That's one item on my wish list, to add an mSATA drive to my office PC.
Some day.

I've had a few negative experiences to make the learning curve an
uphill adventure. Watch out for laptops with slow SATA-1 interfaces.
Lots of tweaks needed to make Windoze happy. For example:
http://www.overclock.net/t/1133897/windows-7-ssd-tweaking-guide
The basic idea is to reduce disk writes, which slowly kills the SSD.
Don't even think of running defrag. Etc. Bug me for details if you
get serious.

Most people would know what lo-bat means. It doesn't take more time to
learn than a barber shop symbol.

Most English speaking people know that. Other's might just do a
Google search and find:
https://freemusicarchive.org/music/Lo-Bat/

... In terms of population distribution, it's
not anywhere near a universal language. ...

Then I wonder how they drive cars.

People do not drive cars. They wear cars like a suit of clothes.

The only one I ever had with
pictograms in the dash (and also my worst one) was a Chrysler. The Audi,
Toyota, Mitsubishu and so on all came with clear-text dashboards. Where
it says "Brake", "Engine", "Oil". Very few pictograms there. The Audi
even has the fuel gauge calling out liters instead of bars. So you know
exactly how much fuel you've got. What a concept!

Look again:
https://www.google.com/search?q=automobile+dashboard&tbm=isch
Sure looks like a mess of icons and pictographs to me. Actually, I
haven't looked at dashboards for a long time, so I don't really know
if icons have become more or less common. Extra credit to some
manufacturer (name forgotten) who would send the engine warning light
error messages in Morse code.

Many people (including myself) can't decipher such pictograms. When
buying cars a clear-text dashboard was always high on the "must have" list.

Just get a label maker and label them yourself. Or, just have an
annotated decoder card handy.

The first order of business when getting a new PC is always to switch
everything possible to classic NT4 display. I can't work with
bonbon-colored pictograms.

I use the Windoze 3.1 desktop colors and fonts. My major complain
about todays Windoze desktop themes is that normal text, the stuff
that I actually read, is in gray or light-gray. It's like the
decorations were more important than the content. Worse, web page
templates are now coming in similar styles. The hint is that nobody
actually reads the text, but does look at the pictures, colors,
buttons, icons, etc. Now, I know how the dinosaurs felt.

I love it. The Serfas I had before was overloaded with stuff and
complicated to handle.

I'm a gadget freak. That will never suffice for my gizmo fetish.

I'll put them in the first aid kit. I always carry that. Used it many
times, just never on myself so far. Like when li'l Henry discovered that
a Razor scooter ain't no 29" mountain bike and thus does not like to go
up curbs.

Ouch. I tried to hop the curb by my office. The problem was that I
wasn't riding my light weight street bike. I was riding my heavy
mountain bike, with a load of junk on the rear rack, which added about
10 lbs. It's been about 3 years and my left wrist still feels the
effects of that impact. I used a wood paint mixer and some bandage
wrap to immobilize my wrist.

The first aid kit is fine, but do check it occasionally. I ignored my
first aid kit in the car for a few years. When I needed it, all the
liquid and paste chemicals had leaked and made a huge mess.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Sun, 14 Jun 2015 10:45:58 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

Look again:
https://www.google.com/search?q=automobile+dashboard&tbm=isch
Sure looks like a mess of icons and pictographs to me. Actually, I
haven't looked at dashboards for a long time, so I don't really know
if icons have become more or less common.

Fiat 500 dashboard:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5w_3zsjTr-o
Have your magic decoder ring handy in order to drive this iconic
nightmare.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 6/14/2015 12:58 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 14 Jun 2015 10:45:58 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

Look again:
https://www.google.com/search?q=automobile+dashboard&tbm=isch
Sure looks like a mess of icons and pictographs to me. Actually, I
haven't looked at dashboards for a long time, so I don't really know
if icons have become more or less common.

Fiat 500 dashboard:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5w_3zsjTr-o
Have your magic decoder ring handy in order to drive this iconic
nightmare.


And they need a key to start. Some cars now, an electronic
'key' !

http://www.mainstreetmotorscarco.com...vair%20016.jpg

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Sunday, June 14, 2015 at 10:18:13 AM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2015-06-13 4:37 PM, wrote:
pour rum over it


But I drink pale ale or Guinness on my rides :-)

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

WELL THAT'LL KILL WHAT'S LEFT...

http://www.roadbikereview.com/review...numbers-bigger

MY ENDURO FREEZES AT LOW VOLTAGE

On Sun, 14 Jun 2015 07:17:39 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2015-06-13 10:50 PM, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 13 Jun 2015 16:06:29 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

Folks,

Got a Cateye Padrone speedometer on my MTB. I noticed the little letters
"mph" under the indicate speed are flashing. Not sure whether they
always did, maybe they did. Anyhow, does someone know how these
speedometers indicate a low battery warning or whether they do that at all?

The manual is fairly useless, 22MB full of fluff.

http://www.cateye.com/files/manual_d...S-m_ENG_v1.pdf

I use this device mostly to gauge mileage and time to make sure I return
in due course. I'd be in the dog house if I'd miss dinner because the
speedometer froze up on me :-)

A look at a number of Cateye cyclemeters all say that the MPH or KPH
"sign" flashes while measuring the speed. I checked the Velo 7, the
Strada and the Padrone (CCPA 100W) documentation and then checked my
own bike. If it is working normally the "MPH" flashes when the wheel
is spinning. When the wheel stops the "MPH" is steady.


Mine flashed even at a traffic light. Then again the Cateye Padrone has
some issues with the RF link. RF design seems to become a lost art these
days, would love to get my hands in there. For example, when there is a
lot of air traffic around here the Padrone handlebar unit will not turn
itself off. So I made it a little tin foil hat. No kidding, that makes
it turn off and not eat up the battery.


Could be. On my usual "Sunday Ride" there is an area, perhaps 75
meters of street, where my Cateye Velo Wireless+ seems to go mad and
occasionally I'm suddenly doing 50 KPH :-) It never seems to happen
anywhere else and only happens occasionally.

Perhaps ghosts?


My experience with Cateye is that if the display can be seen then it
works. When the display can't be seen change the battery :-)


I guess that's the real battery indicator.


This might change with a wireless since if the sender battery dies the
display battery might be still good, but off hand, I can't remember
that happening. I generally use them until the display no longer is
visible and then change both batteries.


I'll carry spares like Jeff suggested. Hoping it writes the trip miles
into flash memory occasionally so they'd be still there. Often that's
the only way to gauge if I can make it home in time. Trails and even
most long distance bike paths out here have next to nothing in signage.
That is the reason why I equipped both bikes with speedometers.

Nope. If you take the battery out of any of the Cateye models that
I've used everything returns to default settings. No flash memory.
Some models may let you reset the mileage but they don't remember it.
--
cheers,

John B.

On 6/14/2015 8:12 PM, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 14 Jun 2015 07:17:39 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

Then again the Cateye Padrone has
some issues with the RF link. RF design seems to become a lost art these
days, would love to get my hands in there. For example, when there is a
lot of air traffic around here the Padrone handlebar unit will not turn
itself off. So I made it a little tin foil hat. No kidding, that makes
it turn off and not eat up the battery.


Could be. On my usual "Sunday Ride" there is an area, perhaps 75
meters of street, where my Cateye Velo Wireless+ seems to go mad and
occasionally I'm suddenly doing 50 KPH :-) It never seems to happen
anywhere else and only happens occasionally.

Perhaps ghosts?

Could be. Notice how you almost never hear any more of dishes
spontaneously flying around kitchens and breaking, of candlesticks
jumping off mantles, of mysterious loud noises when nobody's there?

My long-held theory is that all the poltergeists have moved into our
electronics.

(And don't be surprised if they keep you from seeing this post!)


--
- Frank Krygowski

On 6/14/2015 1:45 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 14 Jun 2015 10:06:07 -0700, Joerg
wrote:


Since I didn't have anything I needed from Digikey and then the shipping
costs are high I bought some via Amazon this time. Around 15c when
buying 48 cells. I am testing them right now, they are from Instapark
and seem to not quite match Panasonic. Rounded knee as well. Do you know
why that is? Different chemistry?

I'm fairly sure they're lithium and magnesium dioxide. If you measure
the ESR of a nearly discharged cell, you'll find that it's much higher
than the quality cell. That explains the rounded knee. I haven't
bothered to dissect some cells yet,
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/69/CR2032_disassembled.jpg
so I don't really know what's different. Offhand, my guess(tm) is
that the lithium anode is either oxidized from an air leak,
contaminated by something, or contains insufficient lithium. Lithium
is expensive and I think the cheap cell makers are trying to cut
costs. If I have time next week, I'll do a cell autopsy.

Vaguely related: I've found that the Cateye Wireless cyclometer on my
folding bike craps out if the temperature's below 40 Fahrenheit. The
sending unit is supposed to be within 30" of the main (display) unit,
and it was, but not quite as close as on a bike with normal wheels.

So far, my solution has been to move the display unit to the low frame
tube, instead of the handlebar. It works, but it's not quite as
convenient there.

I've wondered about rigging up some sort of extension antenna, etc. to
improve the signal strength or radio connection, but I know almost
nothing about antenna design.

Jeff, this sounds like the sort of quirky problem that might interest you.


--
- Frank Krygowski