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Wired take on the 'never failed a test' line.



 
 
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  #1  
Old August 25th 12, 09:34 AM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
atriage[_6_]
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Posts: 1,074
Default Wired take on the 'never failed a test' line.

Quote from link:-

"In short, while testing for drugs has improved, that mainly means only athletes
who are too poor to access sophisticated drug gurus and tech, or too stupid to
try, tend to get caught by testing."


http://www.wired.com/playbook/2012/0...g-allegations/


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  #2  
Old August 26th 12, 09:04 AM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
yirgster
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Posts: 130
Default Wired take on the 'never failed a test' line.

On Saturday, August 25, 2012 1:34:48 AM UTC-7, atriage wrote:
Quote from link:-



"In short, while testing for drugs has improved, that mainly means only athletes

who are too poor to access sophisticated drug gurus and tech, or too stupid to

try, tend to get caught by testing."





http://www.wired.com/playbook/2012/0...g-allegations/





--


Interesting article. It states that the test for EPO requires judgement. Can someone please explain this in a non-technical manner? Is it simply that there can be variations in the weights themselves? Or that the limits of the tests themselves have a sufficiently large margin of error? Or ???

From the article:

"The test used to find the drug involves a complex process called isoelectric focusing which separates molecules by weight across a gel. The drug version’s molecular weight is slightly different.

"However, declaring somebody a doper based on the test requires a judgment call, so labs tend to err on the side of caution."

  #3  
Old August 26th 12, 11:29 AM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
atriage[_6_]
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Posts: 1,074
Default Wired take on the 'never failed a test' line.

On 26/08/2012 09:04, yirgster wrote:
On Saturday, August 25, 2012 1:34:48 AM UTC-7, atriage wrote:
Quote from link:-



"In short, while testing for drugs has improved, that mainly means only athletes

who are too poor to access sophisticated drug gurus and tech, or too stupid to

try, tend to get caught by testing."

http://www.wired.com/playbook/2012/0...g-allegations/


Interesting article. It states that the test for EPO requires judgement. Can someone please explain this in a non-technical manner? Is it simply that there can be variations in the weights themselves? Or that the limits of the tests themselves have a sufficiently large margin of error? Or ???

From the article:

"The test used to find the drug involves a complex process called isoelectric focusing which separates molecules by weight across a gel. The drug version’s molecular weight is slightly different.

"However, declaring somebody a doper based on the test requires a judgment call, so labs tend to err on the side of caution."


Far from being non-technical the link below is in sci-speak but the extract from
it illustrates part of the problem. You may recall that Contador was only caught
because of the availability of an ultra-sensitive Clenbuterol testing machine at
one particular lab. The cut-off limit for the quantity of a doping product in
the blood has to be decided (see page 4 of the link for a discussion on the
limitations of this judgement call) and dopers with access to the right
(corrupt?) technical help will know how to work the (micro-dosing) system so
that they reap some benefit from illegal preparation substances without ever
testing over this cut-off limit. This will also take into account how long the
substance will be detectable for after use, which will be something else dopers
will be reliant on technical help for. So the point is that as long as
'sophisticated drug gurus and tech' are available (presumably for money) then
statements like 'We are solving the doping problem' are probably ********. It
seems to me that the main focus shouldn't be on the athletes who are using the
products but on the gurus providing the 'help' they are getting. Personally I
don't see sport ever being clean as long as the rewards (and hence doping
temptation) for success are so enormous. Then of course there are the 'pipeline'
drugs that no tests currently exist for so they can be used with impunity. When
Tony Martin fell of his bike the other day the commentator remarked on how thin
he looked (gaunt in fact), many cyclists are looking thinner than they ever
have, this 'could' be down to new training regimes of course and I'm in no way
implying that this isn't the case.

http://www.antidoping.ch/files/downl...lysis_2009.pdf

"In an anti-doping context, where false-positive results must be
excluded, the establishment of a decisional limit (cut-off limit) taking
into account the eventual matrix effect is mandatory".

--


  #4  
Old August 26th 12, 01:01 PM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
Davey Crockett[_5_]
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Posts: 1,385
Default Wired take on the 'never failed a test' line.

yirgster a ¨¦crit profondement:


| Interesting article. It states that the test for EPO requires judgement. Can someone please explain this in a non-technical manner? Is it simply that there can be variations in the weights themselves? Or that the limits of the tests themselves have a sufficiently large margin of error? Or ???

| From the article:

| "The test used to find the drug involves a complex process called isoelectric focusing which separates molecules by weight across a gel. The drug version¡¯s molecular weight is slightly different.

| "However, declaring somebody a doper based on the test requires a judgment call, so labs tend to err on the side of caution."


Simply put, the natural and externally introduced molecular weghts are
very similar, and, particularly in a microdosing situation, are
virtually impossible to identify with, let's say, a 95% confidence
level.

So the athlete's previous tests and other known factors are taken into
account and a value(less) judgement is made.

Which is bull**** in the highest degree.

Passing, or even failing, a Drug Test(sic) in and of itself really means
nothing.

--
Davey Crockett
Flying the Flag of the English
The Flag of Hengest and Horsa
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  #5  
Old August 26th 12, 04:39 PM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
atriage[_6_]
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Posts: 1,074
Default Wired take on the 'never failed a test' line.

On 26/08/2012 13:01, Davey Crockett wrote:
yirgster a ¨¦crit profondement:


| Interesting article. It states that the test for EPO requires judgement. Can someone please explain this in a non-technical manner? Is it simply that there can be variations in the weights themselves? Or that the limits of the tests themselves have a sufficiently large margin of error? Or ???

| From the article:

| "The test used to find the drug involves a complex process called isoelectric focusing which separates molecules by weight across a gel. The drug version¡¯s molecular weight is slightly different.

| "However, declaring somebody a doper based on the test requires a judgment call, so labs tend to err on the side of caution."


Simply put, the natural and externally introduced molecular weghts are
very similar, and, particularly in a microdosing situation, are
virtually impossible to identify with, let's say, a 95% confidence
level.

So the athlete's previous tests and other known factors are taken into
account and a value(less) judgement is made.

Which is bull**** in the highest degree.

Passing, or even failing, a Drug Test(sic) in and of itself really means
nothing.


Other than if you fail it it means you're a **** in that you didn't fail a 'dope
test' per say, you failed a 'savvy' test. Gunderson may be many things but
stOOpid enough to fail a dope test he ain't, although he may have got careless
once or twice but was able to 'fix' that anyway.

--


  #6  
Old August 28th 12, 10:59 AM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
Simply Fred
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Posts: 807
Default Wired take on the 'never failed a test' line.

atriage wrote:
Other than if you fail it it means you're a **** in that you didn't fail a 'dope
test' per say, you failed a 'savvy' test. Gunderson may be many things but
stOOpid enough to fail a dope test he ain't, although he may have got careless
once or twice but was able to 'fix' that anyway.


You might be unlucky in the case of microdosing EPO and having an out of
competition test inside the narrow detection window, or careless as in
forgetting that you may have traces of an easy to detect diet drug in
your old blood bags from pre-season training, or really stupid like
mixing up blood bags with a teammate.


  #7  
Old August 28th 12, 11:19 AM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
atriage[_6_]
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Posts: 1,074
Default Wired take on the 'never failed a test' line.

On 28/08/2012 10:59, Simply Fred wrote:
atriage wrote:
Other than if you fail it it means you're a **** in that you didn't fail a 'dope
test' per say, you failed a 'savvy' test. Gunderson may be many things but
stOOpid enough to fail a dope test he ain't, although he may have got careless
once or twice but was able to 'fix' that anyway.


You might be unlucky in the case of microdosing EPO and having an out of
competition test inside the narrow detection window, or careless as in
forgetting that you may have traces of an easy to detect diet drug in
your old blood bags from pre-season training, or really stupid like
mixing up blood bags with a teammate.



Yuk, imagine ending up with Riccardo Ricco's blood inside you. Now that would be
careless.

--


  #8  
Old August 28th 12, 06:02 PM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
yirgster
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Posts: 130
Default Wired take on the 'never failed a test' line.

On Tuesday, August 28, 2012 3:00:00 AM UTC-7, Simply Fred wrote:
atriage wrote:

Other than if you fail it it means you're a **** in that you didn't fail a 'dope


test' per say, you failed a 'savvy' test. Gunderson may be many things but


stOOpid enough to fail a dope test he ain't, although he may have got careless


once or twice but was able to 'fix' that anyway.




You might be unlucky in the case of microdosing EPO and having an out of

competition test inside the narrow detection window, or careless as in

forgetting that you may have traces of an easy to detect diet drug in

your old blood bags from pre-season training, or really stupid like

mixing up blood bags with a teammate.


Or forgetting to simply hydrate to beat the test while microdosing per Thomas Frei.

From cyclingnews.com 4/27/2010:

Swiss rider admits to taking micro-dose of EPO

Switzerland's Thomas Frei has confessed that he has doped for the last two
years, revealing he tested positive for EPO after taking a micro-dose the
evening before the early-morning test.

He said he would not have his B sample tested and admitted that he doped
without the knowledge of the BMC Racing Team.

While Frei was confessing, BMC Racing issued a statement from co-owner
Jim Ochowicz thanking him for his honesty but immediately terminating his
contract.

“It is correct, that I have taken EPO. Therefore there is no sense in opening
the B sample. There is no point in hoping for the off-chance that it will be
negative,” the 25-year-old said Tuesday in a press conference in Olten,
Switzerland, according to the Basler Zeitung newspaper.

Frei said that he had been doping since the summer of 2008, and that his
inner circle was aware of it. “I am not a hardcore liar, I had to talk about it.”

Frei rode for Astana in 2007 and 2008, before joining BMC in 2009.
He said that his positive test on March 21 happened almost by chance,
revealing details of how athletes try to avoid being caught. The previous day
he had given himself a micro-dosage of EPO for the first time in three months.

Frei claimed that if he had drank enough water after the injection, the urine test would not have shown the EPO. He didn't drink the required litre of water however, even when the controller arrived at six o'clock the next morning.

“I would otherwise now be preparing for the Giro d'Italia,” he noted.
 




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