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Your gearing is obsolete



 
 
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  #51  
Old June 13th 20, 05:22 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,870
Default Your gearing is obsolete

On Friday, June 12, 2020 at 9:49:00 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/12/2020 6:02 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, June 12, 2020 at 9:54:15 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/11/2020 11:26 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 22:42:31 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 6/11/2020 6:53 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 18:06:54 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 6/11/2020 4:32 PM, wrote:
On Thursday, June 11, 2020 at 9:35:56 PM UTC+2, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, June 11, 2020 at 11:13:38 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Thursday, June 11, 2020 at 7:23:34 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/11/2020 11:53 AM, AMuzi wrote:
https://bikerumor.com/2018/06/23/com...nx-gx-x01-xx1/


For those who fondly recall 13~17 freewheels, there's a new 10~50 cassette!

50 teeth! Wow, I never thought I'd see the day when my 34 tooth biggest
cog was considered too small.

I'm getting a little out of date. I gotta catch up.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Ah, you give us a voucher to make fun of your dorky handlebar bag and all the other stuff you bolted to your bike one more time. Keep up the good work.

You are not a true utility cyclist. Be quiet. You probably wear a helmet, also known as a head-shackle.

-- Jay Beattie.

I'm certainly not a true utility cyclist. Hauling gallons of milk or crates of beer seems silly to me if you have a car on your driveway.

That's interesting. The U.S. currently has an enthusiastic industry and
publicity machine saying we should build Netherlands-style bike paths
everywhere.

Why? Because then people will stop driving their cars!

I seem to remember talk about an increase in cycling when the gasoline
price went sky high. Perhaps that is an easier solution than building
bicycle paths. Just raise the price of fuel :-)

We actually are seeing a surge in bicycling right now.

Errr... what is a surge? Or rather how large is a surge :-)

Well, there's this:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/18/n...ronavirus.html

This past week, I was asked to offer advice for the friend (call him #2)
of a friend (#1). #2 wants to buy bikes for his twin sons, age about 7..

Just to be sure, my wife and I drove to four bike shops. There are no
bikes for those kids. The area's largest shop normally has maybe 200
bikes on the display floor. They had maybe a dozen, with none due in for
months. The only kid's bike was one girl's bike, pink and flowery.

The salesman in that shop said to wait till next year. There will be
tons of used bikes for sale.

--
- Frank Krygowski


You DROVE to four bike shops. WTF? What happened to the utility cyclist? You could have ridden to those shops.


Yes, I could have. Including the stop we made at a friend's house, it
would have been maybe 40 miles. It would have killed the entire day. I
chose to drive.

I did a meager 17 mile lunch ride in the pouring rain and passed three shops. I could have picked off another by tacking on a few miles.


Yup. I've been to Portland. This is not Portland.


I was on my fashion Synapse -- deductions for discs and UDi2, fancy shoe covers, Showers Pass jacket, tights and jersey. Points for fenders. No Chihuahua carrier, bells, whistles, mirrors, kickstands, etc. I could have used windshield wipers on my glasses, though. Got throttled again and did not stop for a gallon of milk.


You keep getting throttled despite your racing-level equipment. Old age
is gaining on you despite your constant training (self-flagellation) and
upgrading.

Give it up, Jay. Raise your handlebars, install a big saddlebag, slip on
some wool and a cloth cap, slow down and enjoy the view for a change!


I enjoy what I'm doing. My Synapse rain bike is not a racing bike -- except maybe 40 years ago. It is pretty heavy with fenders, and I'm running 28mm 4Seasons tires that I run 80psi in the rain. I wear a light wool jersey under my rain jacket depending on the temperature, and a poly base layer. I wore a short sleeve jersey under my jacket yesterday, which was wishful thinking because the temperature dropped, and in it was raining like crazy. The jacket soaked through a little, and I had clammy arms. We're having Juneuary in PDX. I wear a helmet, because if I'm gong down on wet pavement, I'm protecting my head. No, I'm not magical like you. I've crashed on ice and wet pavement.

I did NO upgrading. I bought a new bike after my rain bike Roubaix was stolen. The Roubaix was recovered by the PPB, which was great, and I sold it to my son for less than the insurance deductible, and he resold it for twice as much, although he threw a bunch of swag on it first.

I did upgrade my commuter so I could use hydro discs on the new frame (warranty replacement Cannondale) because the new cable routing resulted in draggy BB7 calipers. The replaced 9sp shifters were 15 years old (and still worked fine), and if there had been a 9sp hydro lever available, I would have gone with those. Instead, I went with some non-series sale-table 11sp levers that work with the RS785 series calipers. They're fine, but 11sp wears faster than 9sp, and 9sp is fine for the commuter. The commuter has a 1980s 600EX FD. I might upgrade that. I'm pondering putting a rack on that bike for curmudgeon offset points, like carbon credits.

All of my upgrading has been because of a new bike purchase or to conform old equipment to a warranty replacement frame -- or because I broke equipment. One of my most expensive non-replacement upgrades was a dyno light, hub, rim, wheel build. And I have bought two sets of pre-fab wheels over the years. All my other wheels in the last 40+ years have been ho-made.

I'm not training. I'm just trying to keep up, and I do enjoy the view. https://photos.app.goo.gl/LfCJNbA6ZTQ3CB8RA Shot with my iPhone from Portland Woman's Forum just before the Sheriff busted us for being at a COVID closed park. JRA Clackamas county. https://photos.app.goo.gl/D4QPmiY8QN9s83MS9 Out in the country dodging PUs. I'm waiting for the Gorge highway to reopen between Crown Point and the falls, so my friends and I can do a Bridge of he Gods loop, which is a bit more than 100 miles RT from my house. Wind planning will be critical. On the Washington side: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjvEsJvQe5w I might take two Cliff bars. No Chihuahua bags. Actually, if I really feel bonked, I stop for a falls cone. Here's your tour guide. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XU5nI4w9HCA&t=473s They didn't buy a cone, and they came from the Oregon side. On the two-state bike version, you have to go clockwise because there is a great shoulder on WA 14 going east and basically no shoulder going west, so you return past the falls on the Oregon side. Remember that for your next visit. And one of the only places I have ever beaten my friend was sprinting the corner back up to Vista House on an out and back to the falls. https://tinyurl.com/y8ceu65l I paid for it later.

-- Jay Beattie.



Ads
  #52  
Old June 13th 20, 05:50 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,538
Default Your gearing is obsolete

On 6/13/2020 9:59 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/12/2020 11:31 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/12/2020 2:51 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/12/2020 11:55 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/12/2020 12:41 PM, wrote:
On Friday, June 12, 2020 at 4:41:57 PM UTC+2, Frank
Krygowski wrote:
On 6/12/2020 6:09 AM,
wrote:
On Friday, June 12, 2020 at 12:06:56 AM UTC+2, Frank
Krygowski wrote:
On 6/11/2020 4:32 PM,
wrote:
On Thursday, June 11, 2020 at 9:35:56 PM UTC+2,
jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, June 11, 2020 at 11:13:38 AM UTC-7,
wrote:
On Thursday, June 11, 2020 at 7:23:34 PM UTC+2,
Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/11/2020 11:53 AM, AMuzi wrote:
https://bikerumor.com/2018/06/23/com...nx-gx-x01-xx1/





For those who fondly recall 13~17 freewheels,
there's a new 10~50 cassette!

50 teeth! Wow, I never thought I'd see the day when
my 34 tooth biggest
cog was considered too small.

I'm getting a little out of date. I gotta catch up.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Ah, you give us a voucher to make fun of your dorky
handlebar bag and all the other stuff you bolted to
your bike one more time. Keep up the good work.

You are not a true utility cyclist.テつ* Be quiet. You
probably wear a helmet, also known as a head-shackle.

-- Jay Beattie.

I'm certainly not a true utility cyclist. Hauling
gallons of milk or crates of beer seems silly to me if
you have a car on your driveway.

That's interesting. The U.S. currently has an
enthusiastic industry and
publicity machine saying we should build
Netherlands-style bike paths
everywhere.

Why? Because then people will stop driving their cars!


--
- Frank Krygowski

What has that to do with the fact that I prefer using my
car for groceries and not my bike. I only use my bike
for non fun rides if it is more practical.

??? Your question amazes me. You are a direct rebuttal to
their claims.

Of course you don't use your bike if your car is "more
practical." And
as I recall, you mocked things like handlebar bags - so
carrying more
than one liter volume means your car will almost always
be "more
practical." For almost all Americans, that is also true.
They will use
it as an excuse to never bike for utility.

Also, any trip requiring muscular exertion will make
their car "more
practical." Temperatures above 22 C will be too hot to be
practical.
Temperatures below 20 C will be too chilly. Rain, or the
possibility of
rain will have the same effect. So will snow, of course.
And darkness.

The U.S. will never be a bicycling nation. Your own
preference for the
car, except for "sport" rides, even in a nation renowned
for its cycling
culture adds evidence.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Last year:
mileage car: 7500 km
mileage bike(s): 12000 km.

Give me the numbers for utility riding, as opposed to sport
riding.



You're back in the realm of taste and fashion there.

Who's to say that one cyclist's experience is better or
more pure or more admirable than another's? Not me.


My point immediately above was that America's dominant
"taste and fashion" will be driving cars for the foreseeable
future. That's true even if quasi-protected bikeways are
magically built to every destination.

If a 12000 km/year cyclist won't bike to the grocery in a
country famed for world-record bike facilities, the average
American isn't going to do it no matter what gets built in
the right-of-way.

That's fact. Whether it's good or bad can be discussed, but
the good or bad is beside the point.


I disagree.


I think you disagree because you're not understanding my point, or my
context. Perhaps I didn't write clearly enough.

The specific point I was making had nothing to do with practicality of
any type of bike. It was about the propaganda avalanche claiming that IF
we just build the right kind of bike lanes, THEN Americans will switch
from cars to bikes in temendous (or at least, very significant) numbers.
In r.b.tech, that's been espoused mostly by Scharf and by Joerg, but
there are organizations daily pumping out that sort of propaganda.

I say it will never happen to any significant extent - at least, absent
massive societal earthquakes. I doubt you disagree with that point.
I ride to a grocery and just hang the plastic bag from my handlebar but
I don't have a problem with people who drive. meh. I hardly ever buy
more than what I'll eat for dinner but some people shop for a week at a
time, for more than one person (children?) and that's fine by me. whatever.


I do a lot of "one bag" trips to shops, although I keep things well away
from my front wheel by using bike bags, racks or (on my about-town 3
speed) a wire basket. But we usually do groceries a week at a time,
loading up my bike plus a bit on my wife's bike. As you say, whatever.
There's nothing wrong with extra bike rides and smaller loads.

Cycling to the exclusion of all other transport seems a ridiculous goal
to me. Cycling when the mood strikes, on one bike or another, use of
motor vehicles sometimes, walking occasionally and so on are all fine by
me.


Yep. As I said, we used the car for the 40 mile trek to several bike
stores. We used the car for another 80 mile round trip to visit friends
yesterday.

IMHO we ought to embrace cycling in any and all forms and un-reify
'Cycling' to accept bicycles as a regular part of normal life for
average people.

Waiting for a special dedicated linear park for every cyclist to every
destination is to wait forever. Waiting for a legislative deus ex
machina to remove all motor vehicles first is forever and a day. To
advise that riding to work cannot be done without a special commuter
model bicycle dissuades new riders. We need not repeat 'too dangerous
without headgear' and all that. I like cyclists, those who ride once in
a while slowly and those who ride every day. Let's remove
barriers/stigma/shaming first and worry about who rides what later.


I'm fine with all that.

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #53  
Old June 13th 20, 06:02 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 824
Default Your gearing is obsolete

On Saturday, June 13, 2020 at 6:50:45 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/13/2020 9:59 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/12/2020 11:31 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/12/2020 2:51 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/12/2020 11:55 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/12/2020 12:41 PM, wrote:
On Friday, June 12, 2020 at 4:41:57 PM UTC+2, Frank
Krygowski wrote:
On 6/12/2020 6:09 AM,
wrote:
On Friday, June 12, 2020 at 12:06:56 AM UTC+2, Frank
Krygowski wrote:
On 6/11/2020 4:32 PM,
wrote:
On Thursday, June 11, 2020 at 9:35:56 PM UTC+2,
jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, June 11, 2020 at 11:13:38 AM UTC-7,
wrote:
On Thursday, June 11, 2020 at 7:23:34 PM UTC+2,
Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/11/2020 11:53 AM, AMuzi wrote:
https://bikerumor.com/2018/06/23/com...nx-gx-x01-xx1/





For those who fondly recall 13~17 freewheels,
there's a new 10~50 cassette!

50 teeth! Wow, I never thought I'd see the day when
my 34 tooth biggest
cog was considered too small.

I'm getting a little out of date. I gotta catch up.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Ah, you give us a voucher to make fun of your dorky
handlebar bag and all the other stuff you bolted to
your bike one more time. Keep up the good work.

You are not a true utility cyclist.テつ* Be quiet. You
probably wear a helmet, also known as a head-shackle.

-- Jay Beattie.

I'm certainly not a true utility cyclist. Hauling
gallons of milk or crates of beer seems silly to me if
you have a car on your driveway.

That's interesting. The U.S. currently has an
enthusiastic industry and
publicity machine saying we should build
Netherlands-style bike paths
everywhere.

Why? Because then people will stop driving their cars!


--
- Frank Krygowski

What has that to do with the fact that I prefer using my
car for groceries and not my bike. I only use my bike
for non fun rides if it is more practical.

??? Your question amazes me. You are a direct rebuttal to
their claims.

Of course you don't use your bike if your car is "more
practical." And
as I recall, you mocked things like handlebar bags - so
carrying more
than one liter volume means your car will almost always
be "more
practical." For almost all Americans, that is also true.
They will use
it as an excuse to never bike for utility.

Also, any trip requiring muscular exertion will make
their car "more
practical." Temperatures above 22 C will be too hot to be
practical.
Temperatures below 20 C will be too chilly. Rain, or the
possibility of
rain will have the same effect. So will snow, of course.
And darkness.

The U.S. will never be a bicycling nation. Your own
preference for the
car, except for "sport" rides, even in a nation renowned
for its cycling
culture adds evidence.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Last year:
mileage car: 7500 km
mileage bike(s): 12000 km.

Give me the numbers for utility riding, as opposed to sport
riding.



You're back in the realm of taste and fashion there.

Who's to say that one cyclist's experience is better or
more pure or more admirable than another's? Not me.

My point immediately above was that America's dominant
"taste and fashion" will be driving cars for the foreseeable
future. That's true even if quasi-protected bikeways are
magically built to every destination.

If a 12000 km/year cyclist won't bike to the grocery in a
country famed for world-record bike facilities, the average
American isn't going to do it no matter what gets built in
the right-of-way.

That's fact. Whether it's good or bad can be discussed, but
the good or bad is beside the point.


I disagree.


I think you disagree because you're not understanding my point, or my
context. Perhaps I didn't write clearly enough.

The specific point I was making had nothing to do with practicality of
any type of bike. It was about the propaganda avalanche claiming that IF
we just build the right kind of bike lanes, THEN Americans will switch
from cars to bikes in temendous (or at least, very significant) numbers.
In r.b.tech, that's been espoused mostly by Scharf and by Joerg, but
there are organizations daily pumping out that sort of propaganda.


How did we end up with this discussion here? You brought it up again. I didn't see sms or Joerg show up in this thread. Was it too long ago that you could impose your opinion?

Lou
  #54  
Old June 13th 20, 06:08 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,538
Default Your gearing is obsolete

On 6/13/2020 12:22 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, June 12, 2020 at 9:49:00 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/12/2020 6:02 PM, jbeattie wrote:
Got throttled again and did not stop for a gallon of milk.


You keep getting throttled despite your racing-level equipment. Old age
is gaining on you despite your constant training (self-flagellation) and
upgrading.

Give it up, Jay. Raise your handlebars, install a big saddlebag, slip on
some wool and a cloth cap, slow down and enjoy the view for a change!


I enjoy what I'm doing.


Hmm. All we seem to hear about is the misery. Perhaps you should
re-write? Or is this actually masochism?

I wear a helmet, because if I'm gong down on wet pavement, I'm protecting my head. No, I'm not magical like you. I've crashed on ice and wet pavement.


Pity. But I don't think I'm magical. I think I'm appropriately careful.

I did NO upgrading. ...

I'm not training. I'm just trying to keep up...


Ah well, do what you enjoy.


--
- Frank Krygowski
  #55  
Old June 13th 20, 06:14 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,538
Default Your gearing is obsolete

On 6/13/2020 1:02 PM, wrote:
On Saturday, June 13, 2020 at 6:50:45 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/13/2020 9:59 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/12/2020 11:31 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/12/2020 2:51 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/12/2020 11:55 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/12/2020 12:41 PM,
wrote:
On Friday, June 12, 2020 at 4:41:57 PM UTC+2, Frank
Krygowski wrote:
On 6/12/2020 6:09 AM,
wrote:
On Friday, June 12, 2020 at 12:06:56 AM UTC+2, Frank
Krygowski wrote:
On 6/11/2020 4:32 PM,
wrote:
On Thursday, June 11, 2020 at 9:35:56 PM UTC+2,
jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, June 11, 2020 at 11:13:38 AM UTC-7,
wrote:
On Thursday, June 11, 2020 at 7:23:34 PM UTC+2,
Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/11/2020 11:53 AM, AMuzi wrote:
https://bikerumor.com/2018/06/23/com...nx-gx-x01-xx1/





For those who fondly recall 13~17 freewheels,
there's a new 10~50 cassette!

50 teeth! Wow, I never thought I'd see the day when
my 34 tooth biggest
cog was considered too small.

I'm getting a little out of date. I gotta catch up.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Ah, you give us a voucher to make fun of your dorky
handlebar bag and all the other stuff you bolted to
your bike one more time. Keep up the good work.

You are not a true utility cyclist.テつ* Be quiet. You
probably wear a helmet, also known as a head-shackle.

-- Jay Beattie.

I'm certainly not a true utility cyclist. Hauling
gallons of milk or crates of beer seems silly to me if
you have a car on your driveway.

That's interesting. The U.S. currently has an
enthusiastic industry and
publicity machine saying we should build
Netherlands-style bike paths
everywhere.

Why? Because then people will stop driving their cars!


--
- Frank Krygowski

What has that to do with the fact that I prefer using my
car for groceries and not my bike. I only use my bike
for non fun rides if it is more practical.

??? Your question amazes me. You are a direct rebuttal to
their claims.

Of course you don't use your bike if your car is "more
practical." And
as I recall, you mocked things like handlebar bags - so
carrying more
than one liter volume means your car will almost always
be "more
practical." For almost all Americans, that is also true.
They will use
it as an excuse to never bike for utility.

Also, any trip requiring muscular exertion will make
their car "more
practical." Temperatures above 22 C will be too hot to be
practical.
Temperatures below 20 C will be too chilly. Rain, or the
possibility of
rain will have the same effect. So will snow, of course.
And darkness.

The U.S. will never be a bicycling nation. Your own
preference for the
car, except for "sport" rides, even in a nation renowned
for its cycling
culture adds evidence.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Last year:
mileage car: 7500 km
mileage bike(s): 12000 km.

Give me the numbers for utility riding, as opposed to sport
riding.



You're back in the realm of taste and fashion there.

Who's to say that one cyclist's experience is better or
more pure or more admirable than another's? Not me.

My point immediately above was that America's dominant
"taste and fashion" will be driving cars for the foreseeable
future. That's true even if quasi-protected bikeways are
magically built to every destination.

If a 12000 km/year cyclist won't bike to the grocery in a
country famed for world-record bike facilities, the average
American isn't going to do it no matter what gets built in
the right-of-way.

That's fact. Whether it's good or bad can be discussed, but
the good or bad is beside the point.


I disagree.


I think you disagree because you're not understanding my point, or my
context. Perhaps I didn't write clearly enough.

The specific point I was making had nothing to do with practicality of
any type of bike. It was about the propaganda avalanche claiming that IF
we just build the right kind of bike lanes, THEN Americans will switch
from cars to bikes in temendous (or at least, very significant) numbers.
In r.b.tech, that's been espoused mostly by Scharf and by Joerg, but
there are organizations daily pumping out that sort of propaganda.


How did we end up with this discussion here? You brought it up again. I didn't see sms or Joerg show up in this thread. Was it too long ago that you could impose your opinion?


Hmm. Should I email you for prior permission regarding points of discussion?


--
- Frank Krygowski
  #56  
Old June 13th 20, 07:48 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 824
Default Your gearing is obsolete

On Saturday, June 13, 2020 at 7:14:16 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/13/2020 1:02 PM, wrote:
On Saturday, June 13, 2020 at 6:50:45 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/13/2020 9:59 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/12/2020 11:31 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/12/2020 2:51 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/12/2020 11:55 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/12/2020 12:41 PM,
wrote:
On Friday, June 12, 2020 at 4:41:57 PM UTC+2, Frank
Krygowski wrote:
On 6/12/2020 6:09 AM,
wrote:
On Friday, June 12, 2020 at 12:06:56 AM UTC+2, Frank
Krygowski wrote:
On 6/11/2020 4:32 PM,
wrote:
On Thursday, June 11, 2020 at 9:35:56 PM UTC+2,
jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, June 11, 2020 at 11:13:38 AM UTC-7,
wrote:
On Thursday, June 11, 2020 at 7:23:34 PM UTC+2,
Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/11/2020 11:53 AM, AMuzi wrote:
https://bikerumor.com/2018/06/23/com...nx-gx-x01-xx1/





For those who fondly recall 13~17 freewheels,
there's a new 10~50 cassette!

50 teeth! Wow, I never thought I'd see the day when
my 34 tooth biggest
cog was considered too small.

I'm getting a little out of date. I gotta catch up.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Ah, you give us a voucher to make fun of your dorky
handlebar bag and all the other stuff you bolted to
your bike one more time. Keep up the good work.

You are not a true utility cyclist.テつ* Be quiet. You
probably wear a helmet, also known as a head-shackle.

-- Jay Beattie.

I'm certainly not a true utility cyclist. Hauling
gallons of milk or crates of beer seems silly to me if
you have a car on your driveway.

That's interesting. The U.S. currently has an
enthusiastic industry and
publicity machine saying we should build
Netherlands-style bike paths
everywhere.

Why? Because then people will stop driving their cars!


--
- Frank Krygowski

What has that to do with the fact that I prefer using my
car for groceries and not my bike. I only use my bike
for non fun rides if it is more practical.

??? Your question amazes me. You are a direct rebuttal to
their claims.

Of course you don't use your bike if your car is "more
practical." And
as I recall, you mocked things like handlebar bags - so
carrying more
than one liter volume means your car will almost always
be "more
practical." For almost all Americans, that is also true.
They will use
it as an excuse to never bike for utility.

Also, any trip requiring muscular exertion will make
their car "more
practical." Temperatures above 22 C will be too hot to be
practical.
Temperatures below 20 C will be too chilly. Rain, or the
possibility of
rain will have the same effect. So will snow, of course.
And darkness.

The U.S. will never be a bicycling nation. Your own
preference for the
car, except for "sport" rides, even in a nation renowned
for its cycling
culture adds evidence.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Last year:
mileage car: 7500 km
mileage bike(s): 12000 km.

Give me the numbers for utility riding, as opposed to sport
riding.



You're back in the realm of taste and fashion there.

Who's to say that one cyclist's experience is better or
more pure or more admirable than another's? Not me.

My point immediately above was that America's dominant
"taste and fashion" will be driving cars for the foreseeable
future. That's true even if quasi-protected bikeways are
magically built to every destination.

If a 12000 km/year cyclist won't bike to the grocery in a
country famed for world-record bike facilities, the average
American isn't going to do it no matter what gets built in
the right-of-way.

That's fact. Whether it's good or bad can be discussed, but
the good or bad is beside the point.


I disagree.

I think you disagree because you're not understanding my point, or my
context. Perhaps I didn't write clearly enough.

The specific point I was making had nothing to do with practicality of
any type of bike. It was about the propaganda avalanche claiming that IF
we just build the right kind of bike lanes, THEN Americans will switch
from cars to bikes in temendous (or at least, very significant) numbers.
In r.b.tech, that's been espoused mostly by Scharf and by Joerg, but
there are organizations daily pumping out that sort of propaganda.


How did we end up with this discussion here? You brought it up again. I didn't see sms or Joerg show up in this thread. Was it too long ago that you could impose your opinion?


Hmm. Should I email you for prior permission regarding points of discussion?


--
- Frank Krygowski


Nah, I just keep stalking you and intervene when necessary.

Lou
  #57  
Old June 14th 20, 01:52 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,870
Default Your gearing is obsolete

On Saturday, June 13, 2020 at 10:14:16 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/13/2020 1:02 PM, wrote:
On Saturday, June 13, 2020 at 6:50:45 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/13/2020 9:59 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/12/2020 11:31 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/12/2020 2:51 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/12/2020 11:55 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/12/2020 12:41 PM,
wrote:
On Friday, June 12, 2020 at 4:41:57 PM UTC+2, Frank
Krygowski wrote:
On 6/12/2020 6:09 AM,
wrote:
On Friday, June 12, 2020 at 12:06:56 AM UTC+2, Frank
Krygowski wrote:
On 6/11/2020 4:32 PM,
wrote:
On Thursday, June 11, 2020 at 9:35:56 PM UTC+2,
jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, June 11, 2020 at 11:13:38 AM UTC-7,
wrote:
On Thursday, June 11, 2020 at 7:23:34 PM UTC+2,
Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/11/2020 11:53 AM, AMuzi wrote:
https://bikerumor.com/2018/06/23/com...nx-gx-x01-xx1/





For those who fondly recall 13~17 freewheels,
there's a new 10~50 cassette!

50 teeth! Wow, I never thought I'd see the day when
my 34 tooth biggest
cog was considered too small.

I'm getting a little out of date. I gotta catch up.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Ah, you give us a voucher to make fun of your dorky
handlebar bag and all the other stuff you bolted to
your bike one more time. Keep up the good work.

You are not a true utility cyclist.テつ* Be quiet. You
probably wear a helmet, also known as a head-shackle.

-- Jay Beattie.

I'm certainly not a true utility cyclist. Hauling
gallons of milk or crates of beer seems silly to me if
you have a car on your driveway.

That's interesting. The U.S. currently has an
enthusiastic industry and
publicity machine saying we should build
Netherlands-style bike paths
everywhere.

Why? Because then people will stop driving their cars!


--
- Frank Krygowski

What has that to do with the fact that I prefer using my
car for groceries and not my bike. I only use my bike
for non fun rides if it is more practical.

??? Your question amazes me. You are a direct rebuttal to
their claims.

Of course you don't use your bike if your car is "more
practical." And
as I recall, you mocked things like handlebar bags - so
carrying more
than one liter volume means your car will almost always
be "more
practical." For almost all Americans, that is also true.
They will use
it as an excuse to never bike for utility.

Also, any trip requiring muscular exertion will make
their car "more
practical." Temperatures above 22 C will be too hot to be
practical.
Temperatures below 20 C will be too chilly. Rain, or the
possibility of
rain will have the same effect. So will snow, of course.
And darkness.

The U.S. will never be a bicycling nation. Your own
preference for the
car, except for "sport" rides, even in a nation renowned
for its cycling
culture adds evidence.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Last year:
mileage car: 7500 km
mileage bike(s): 12000 km.

Give me the numbers for utility riding, as opposed to sport
riding.



You're back in the realm of taste and fashion there.

Who's to say that one cyclist's experience is better or
more pure or more admirable than another's? Not me.

My point immediately above was that America's dominant
"taste and fashion" will be driving cars for the foreseeable
future. That's true even if quasi-protected bikeways are
magically built to every destination.

If a 12000 km/year cyclist won't bike to the grocery in a
country famed for world-record bike facilities, the average
American isn't going to do it no matter what gets built in
the right-of-way.

That's fact. Whether it's good or bad can be discussed, but
the good or bad is beside the point.


I disagree.

I think you disagree because you're not understanding my point, or my
context. Perhaps I didn't write clearly enough.

The specific point I was making had nothing to do with practicality of
any type of bike. It was about the propaganda avalanche claiming that IF
we just build the right kind of bike lanes, THEN Americans will switch
from cars to bikes in temendous (or at least, very significant) numbers.
In r.b.tech, that's been espoused mostly by Scharf and by Joerg, but
there are organizations daily pumping out that sort of propaganda.


How did we end up with this discussion here? You brought it up again. I didn't see sms or Joerg show up in this thread. Was it too long ago that you could impose your opinion?


Hmm. Should I email you for prior permission regarding points of discussion?


Yes. I vote for Lou to moderate.

For you, Frank, everything is deceit or propaganda if it doesn't fit your agenda, which is sometimes opaque and/or contradictory. You want to increase utility cycling, but you rant against basically any facilities.

Separated facilities are what account for the NL's high bicycle mode share. There is no question about that -- even if Lou drives his car to the store. I'm sure that low-speed cycling in protected facilities also underscores the sentiment in NL that helmets are unnecessary. I have a close friend from the NL, and she's terrified of riding in Portland and simply doesn't -- helmet or not.

Those countries with the highest mode shares are not chock-full-o vehicular cyclists. Most are riding in protected facilities of one sort or another or traffic calmed streets. The Amsterdam and Copenhagens of the world. I saw plenty of cyclists dodging double-deckers in London, but on average, they were willing to take more risk than the average US cyclist.

There are good and bad facilities, and I may chose not to use some or all of them -- and I may chose to drive somewhere, even, but some facilities do bring out some new cyclists. The real question is whether the small increase justifies the expense.

-- Jay Beattie.

  #58  
Old June 14th 20, 02:56 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Wolfgang Strobl[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 44
Default Your gearing is obsolete

Am Thu, 11 Jun 2020 16:18:02 -0700 (PDT) schrieb Sir Ridesalot

The biggest problem I see with bicycle paths is the LACK of infrastructure to bicycle to them.


The two biggest problems with bicycle paths are, these either go from
nowhere to nowhere, or they put the cyclist on the wrong side of
traffic.

Bicycle path enthusiasts from all over the world have a solution,
though: just dig a canal from here to there, fill it with water, frame
it with bicyclce paths, and the bicycle traffic will come. It did work
in the Netherlands, so it certainly will work for the steep roads in
your home town, too!


--
Bicycle helmets are the Bach flower remedies of traffic
  #59  
Old June 14th 20, 04:25 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Wolfgang Strobl[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 44
Default Your gearing is obsolete

Am Fri, 12 Jun 2020 10:05:27 -0700 (PDT) schrieb :

On Friday, June 12, 2020 at 6:55:38 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/12/2020 12:41 PM,
wrote:
On Friday, June 12, 2020 at 4:41:57 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:

....
Of course you don't use your bike if your car is "more practical." And
as I recall, you mocked things like handlebar bags - so carrying more
than one liter volume means your car will almost always be "more
practical." For almost all Americans, that is also true. They will use
it as an excuse to never bike for utility.

Also, any trip requiring muscular exertion will make their car "more
practical." Temperatures above 22 C will be too hot to be practical.
Temperatures below 20 C will be too chilly. Rain, or the possibility of
rain will have the same effect. So will snow, of course. And darkness.

The U.S. will never be a bicycling nation. Your own preference for the
car, except for "sport" rides, even in a nation renowned for its cycling
culture adds evidence.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Last year:
mileage car: 7500 km
mileage bike(s): 12000 km.


Give me the numbers for utility riding, as opposed to sport riding.


Why? I don't log the mileage of the utility rides.


IMO, this sharp distinction between "utility rides" and "sport riding"
is an indication of your problem with cycling in the U.S.. I won't
claim that we don't suffer from a similar cognitive dissonance around
here in Europe, but like much nonsense, that seems to be an import of US
origin.

Ask somebody around here whether he or she is into "sport driving" or
"motor sport", when driving their family car. The certain answer is: of
course not! You'll instantly get that very answer, whether the car in
question is an old (20 years) Citroen station wagon, a new
Mercedes-Benz ML 55 AMG or that Smart fortwo for the daughter.

Everything below 25 km/hr doesn't count for me except off
road riding of course.


Well, I wouldn't and couldn't make that distinction, because it just
doesn't exist. My bicycles are my main mode of transport, just like
for many people, their car(s) are their main mode of transport. Whether
they do sports doesn't have anything to do with that. Neither is it of
any importance whether these people use a bicycle, a ball or a club for
practicing their sport, or whether I or somebody else uses a car, as
another mode of transport. I tried to avoid it, with varying success,
see below. I sometimes ride my race bike very slowly and rarely don't
exceed 25 km/h occasionally, when using my dutch type bicycle for
shopping.


If I have to make an estimate it will
be less than 500 km.


Sure. Your main mode of transport is the car.

Mine isn't. When excluding other modes of transport, like using the
train to get around in my job, or taking the bus or streetcar when
getting to work when riding the bike wasn't an option, my estimation is
as given below.

It is just an estimation, because like you, I didn't (could't) count
distances done for shopping and short distance cyling. Simply because I
don' carry my Garmin or some cycling computer when riding to one of the
local supermarkets. But I did while riding to my workplace or while
getting around in, for example, in the south of France for sightseeing
during holidays, so these kilometers are tracked just like the
kilometers done using the family car.

Over the last about fifteen years, this amounnts to round about 5000 km
per annum on the bicyle, and about 5000 km using the car.

Given the fact the car was mostly used for getting from my home town to
the south parts Europe once or twice a year, using fast roads like the
autobahn, this means that I cycled four to five times as much, in hours.
None of that qualifies as "sports".


I had a problem with my car for 3 weeks
(battery drained over night) so I had to do everything by
bike for that period. I even bought panniers. I can't see
the fun in getting groceries by bike if you don't have to.


I don't see much fun in that, either. It is somewhat faster with the
bike, though, and not that difficult. Ask my wife, she often jokes
about our neightbor for his shopping habits. When she is already done
getting the content of her two pannieres into the house, he is still
walking from and to the car, in order to carry not even half as much
stuff from the car.

Why did she shop instead of me doing that? Well, for many years, she
could walk to work, while I was somewhat too far from home, while
working, or sitting on the bike while riding to or from work. So for
her, it's more routine than for me. In addition, currently there still
is an enforced social distance rule around here, so shopping together
isn't really a good option. Under normal circumstances, we combined or
transport capacity, when necessary.

They invented a car for that. YMMV.


So you believe. I'd rather use the train for long distances and can and
do pay delivery services for heavy stuff. I have better things to do
than driving a car, it even pays better. I would prefer to be able to
use public transport to get our bicycles to France, Italy or Poland,
but, alas, that service has been thinned, so we use the family car for
that. But using a car to get a litre of milk, five kg potatatoes and
some apples from a supermarket, that's crazy.






--
Thank you for observing all safety precautions
  #60  
Old June 14th 20, 05:42 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,538
Default Your gearing is obsolete

On 6/13/2020 8:52 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, June 13, 2020 at 10:14:16 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/13/2020 1:02 PM, wrote:
On Saturday, June 13, 2020 at 6:50:45 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/13/2020 9:59 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/12/2020 11:31 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/12/2020 2:51 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/12/2020 11:55 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/12/2020 12:41 PM,
wrote:
On Friday, June 12, 2020 at 4:41:57 PM UTC+2, Frank
Krygowski wrote:
On 6/12/2020 6:09 AM,
wrote:
On Friday, June 12, 2020 at 12:06:56 AM UTC+2, Frank
Krygowski wrote:
On 6/11/2020 4:32 PM,
wrote:
On Thursday, June 11, 2020 at 9:35:56 PM UTC+2,
jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, June 11, 2020 at 11:13:38 AM UTC-7,
wrote:
On Thursday, June 11, 2020 at 7:23:34 PM UTC+2,
Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/11/2020 11:53 AM, AMuzi wrote:
https://bikerumor.com/2018/06/23/com...nx-gx-x01-xx1/





For those who fondly recall 13~17 freewheels,
there's a new 10~50 cassette!

50 teeth! Wow, I never thought I'd see the day when
my 34 tooth biggest
cog was considered too small.

I'm getting a little out of date. I gotta catch up.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Ah, you give us a voucher to make fun of your dorky
handlebar bag and all the other stuff you bolted to
your bike one more time. Keep up the good work.

You are not a true utility cyclist.テつ* Be quiet. You
probably wear a helmet, also known as a head-shackle.

-- Jay Beattie.

I'm certainly not a true utility cyclist. Hauling
gallons of milk or crates of beer seems silly to me if
you have a car on your driveway.

That's interesting. The U.S. currently has an
enthusiastic industry and
publicity machine saying we should build
Netherlands-style bike paths
everywhere.

Why? Because then people will stop driving their cars!


--
- Frank Krygowski

What has that to do with the fact that I prefer using my
car for groceries and not my bike. I only use my bike
for non fun rides if it is more practical.

??? Your question amazes me. You are a direct rebuttal to
their claims.

Of course you don't use your bike if your car is "more
practical." And
as I recall, you mocked things like handlebar bags - so
carrying more
than one liter volume means your car will almost always
be "more
practical." For almost all Americans, that is also true.
They will use
it as an excuse to never bike for utility.

Also, any trip requiring muscular exertion will make
their car "more
practical." Temperatures above 22 C will be too hot to be
practical.
Temperatures below 20 C will be too chilly. Rain, or the
possibility of
rain will have the same effect. So will snow, of course.
And darkness.

The U.S. will never be a bicycling nation. Your own
preference for the
car, except for "sport" rides, even in a nation renowned
for its cycling
culture adds evidence.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Last year:
mileage car: 7500 km
mileage bike(s): 12000 km.

Give me the numbers for utility riding, as opposed to sport
riding.



You're back in the realm of taste and fashion there.

Who's to say that one cyclist's experience is better or
more pure or more admirable than another's? Not me.

My point immediately above was that America's dominant
"taste and fashion" will be driving cars for the foreseeable
future. That's true even if quasi-protected bikeways are
magically built to every destination.

If a 12000 km/year cyclist won't bike to the grocery in a
country famed for world-record bike facilities, the average
American isn't going to do it no matter what gets built in
the right-of-way.

That's fact. Whether it's good or bad can be discussed, but
the good or bad is beside the point.


I disagree.

I think you disagree because you're not understanding my point, or my
context. Perhaps I didn't write clearly enough.

The specific point I was making had nothing to do with practicality of
any type of bike. It was about the propaganda avalanche claiming that IF
we just build the right kind of bike lanes, THEN Americans will switch
from cars to bikes in temendous (or at least, very significant) numbers.
In r.b.tech, that's been espoused mostly by Scharf and by Joerg, but
there are organizations daily pumping out that sort of propaganda.


How did we end up with this discussion here? You brought it up again. I didn't see sms or Joerg show up in this thread. Was it too long ago that you could impose your opinion?


Hmm. Should I email you for prior permission regarding points of discussion?


Yes. I vote for Lou to moderate.


And I vote against. A moderator should be moderate. Someone who rails
against putting a bag on a bike used for long rides is in an extreme
fringe.

For you, Frank, everything is deceit or propaganda if it doesn't fit your agenda...


Baloney. You're constructing grossly over-generalized straw men.

which is sometimes opaque and/or contradictory. You want to increase utility cycling, but you rant against basically any facilities.


Really? And yet, I'm almost solely responsible for some local
facilities, and worked on a small committee that's responsible for
another. I've spoken publicly in favor of another besides those, and I
worked on a statewide committee that funded many more.

If you want to rationally discuss facility benefits and detriments,
let's do it. Don's snipe about them in a rambling rant.

Separated facilities are what account for the NL's high bicycle mode share. There is no question about that...


That's simplistic nonsense, and probably backward. Netherlands' history
and bicycle culture account for its separated facilities. It had high
bike mode share when it had almost no such facilities. And places with
Netherlands-style facilities but without its other attributes still have
tiny mode shares.

All this has been thoroughly discussed. Check your notes.

-- even if Lou drives his car to the store. I'm sure that low-speed cycling in protected facilities also underscores the sentiment in NL that helmets are unnecessary. I have a close friend from the NL, and she's terrified of riding in Portland and simply doesn't -- helmet or not.


Jay, the sentiment that helmets are unnecessary is the world-wide
default. It's not just Netherlands. Absent persistent and insistent
helmet campaigns, the only riders that would have adopted these weird
hats are the same people who costume up like bike racers to go cruise on
country roads. Hell, even most bike racers didn't don those hats until
they were forced to!

Even now, after decades of constant promotion in which "Wear a helmet!"
is the very first (and often last) bit of safety advice, I counted
helmets on only about one third of local cyclists I saw during two years
running. And I'm sure it's much lower now that many more people are
(temporarily) riding bikes due to the shutdowns.

As to your friend: Yes, it's well recognized that if people ride only on
segregated bike facilities, they assume anything else is horribly
dangerous. Sadly, our club has quite a few timid new members who refuse
to ride anywhere but on bike trails.

Those countries with the highest mode shares are not chock-full-o vehicular cyclists. Most are riding in protected facilities of one sort or another or traffic calmed streets. The Amsterdam and Copenhagens of the world.


"The Amsterdam and Copenhagens of the world" is a laughably small
sample, Jay. Why not give an example where cycling culture was not
previously dominant, but where the city or country's traffic is now
dominated by bicycles instead of cars? And where a typical resident can,
and does, get to almost any daily destination via protected facilities?

I'll wait.

(BTW, to further rebut your claim that I'm against facilities: I have
always been strongly in favor of traffic calmed residential streets.)

I saw plenty of cyclists dodging double-deckers in London, but on average, they were willing to take more risk than the average US cyclist.

There are good and bad facilities, and I may chose not to use some or all of them -- and I may chose to drive somewhere, even, but some facilities do bring out some new cyclists. The real question is whether the small increase justifies the expense.


Is that the real question?

"SOME facilities do bring out SOME new cyclists" is probably the lowest
bar possible. It's down there with "Well, helmets must prevent SOME head
injuries!" or "But riding a bike can cause SOME injuries!" or "But Trump
has done SOME good for the U.S." Heck, send me $100,000. I'll invest it
for you and guarantee SOME return.

I'd say the first real question is, what does the country want to
achieve with respect to bike ridership? How much do we want, and why do
we want to do it?

Then I'd ask what is really realistic? Strip away the dreams that more
bicyclists will remove city congestion (Portland is still congested as
hell) or greatly lower greenhouse gases (perhaps it will a tiny bit, but
it would be undetectable - too far down the list to bother with).

And what is realistically achievable? Even magically trendy Portland
can't reach 10% bike mode share among its hip residents. Cleveland,
Jacksonville, Detroit, Los Angeles etc. are absolutely never going to
become Amsterdam.

After all that, if you finally have a realistic bike mode share goal for
realistic reasons, ask what's the best way of achieving it. It's not
going to be spending a million dollars a mile for "protected" bike
chutes that violate fundamental rules of traffic movement.

If you weren't so intent on arguing with me, you'd admit that.


--
- Frank Krygowski
 




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