Tubular Tyre Recommendations??

I am in the market for a couple of tubular tyres to put on my spare set of
track wheels........my intention being to use them as a training set,
probably on both outdoor and indoor velodromes. When I got them they did
have a set of tyres on them but they are pretty old and the rubber has gone
hard and brittle and so tonight I ripped them off (consequently I now have
sore thumbs).

I am sure I can find out on the web but can someone in the know (GemmaK,
Bleve, etc) tell me, do I have to remove all of the glue residue from the
old tyres before putting new ones on and, if so, what should I use to get it
off??

I can remember GemmaK telling me that the actual gluing on takes a while as
you have to put the tyres onto the rim first to pre stretch them, prior to
actually gluing them on. My thumbs are pretty strong so hopefully I will be
able to manage OK. I noticed tonight that the tyres had a cloth rim tape
glued to them.......is this a part of the tyre or does it have to be glued
on to the rim prior to the tyre being glued on?

Also, anyone got any recommendations for what tyres and glue to buy and
where to get them at a good price. GemmaK did provide this info to me at
one stage but it is on my old computer that died and so I no longer have the
emails or the link.

Gags

Gags wrote:

I am in the market for a couple of tubular tyres to put on my spare set of
track wheels........my intention being to use them as a training set,
probably on both outdoor and indoor velodromes. When I got them they did
have a set of tyres on them but they are pretty old and the rubber has gone
hard and brittle and so tonight I ripped them off (consequently I now have
sore thumbs).

I am sure I can find out on the web but can someone in the know (GemmaK,
Bleve, etc) tell me, do I have to remove all of the glue residue from the
old tyres before putting new ones on and, if so, what should I use to get it
off??

I don't know, I'm sorry. I always ride clinchers.

We haven't seen you at a BBN track race yet, what's up?

Gags Wrote:
I am in the market for a couple of tubular tyres to put on my spare set
of
track wheels........my intention being to use them as a training set,
probably on both outdoor and indoor velodromes. When I got them they
did
have a set of tyres on them but they are pretty old and the rubber has
gone
hard and brittle and so tonight I ripped them off (consequently I now
have
sore thumbs).

I am sure I can find out on the web but can someone in the know
(GemmaK,
Bleve, etc) tell me, do I have to remove all of the glue residue from
the
old tyres before putting new ones on and, if so, what should I use to
get it
off??

I can remember GemmaK telling me that the actual gluing on takes a
while as
you have to put the tyres onto the rim first to pre stretch them, prior
to
actually gluing them on. My thumbs are pretty strong so hopefully I
will be
able to manage OK. I noticed tonight that the tyres had a cloth rim
tape
glued to them.......is this a part of the tyre or does it have to be
glued
on to the rim prior to the tyre being glued on?

Also, anyone got any recommendations for what tyres and glue to buy and
where to get them at a good price. GemmaK did provide this info to me
at
one stage but it is on my old computer that died and so I no longer
have the
emails or the link.

Gags
hmmm...this is a personal thing, but its your neck and you need to have
confidence in your gear and how its put together...

Can only speak for what I use and what goes into the gear I see.

My training tyres are Vittoria C-ompetiton- Atlanta's...got them second
hand $100 a pair, new, unused... I ride them around Carnegie and
sometimes on the road, also have some old Clements I use on the trackie
in Fixie mode on the road...
On the Boards, Have a Mix of Vittoria -Pista- EvoCS and Challenge
-Pista- Handmades...all glued with Vittoria "Mastik"
You could use repaired singles too, Walkers sell them sometimes for
around $20 each... I wouldnt use them or any repaired single for that
matter, but it's your call and if they suit your plans ...

As for removing and gluing...it is an art...some die hards use Shellac
and it was once the case that "only" Shellac could be used on some
tracks back when glues werent so good. ( There are a few who still
swear by Shellac...you just have to find them, then find them in a good
mood and with lots of time)... if you can't...then use a good glue.

I use Vittoria "Mastik" Professional, not cheap, works out close to
$4-$5 a tube and that does one tyre... get it at your LBS.

The tape (note: its part of the tyre, not a rim tape) ...well the tape
on the tyre is necessary, ...( well not always, but gives a level of
comfort if your rims has spoke holes which are sharpish), but on
re-glues it can cause the tyre to be a bit lumpy and might be removed
to get a smoother roll if glue has built up..(I've done this on one of
mine and its ok (6 months so far)

cleaning dirt and glue off the rims isnt that easy, especially if you
come acrosss lousy glue or as some Tubs Ive seen (have been glued on
with) " BondCrete "...sheesh...

Removing dirt and glue from the rims needs some care, use an emery
board for final finishing to get the rim smooth and not damaged...some
wheel mechanics use petrol to clean the rims of glue...but dont use a
file !!.

When gluing you must not get glue into the spoke eyelets,
...pre-stretch the tyre on the rim, start at the top of the rim and
stretch down both sides evenly as you work towards the bottom, then
flip and pop...its on...needs strong thumbs...inflate to about 7 atm
105psi and leave overnight at least...then remove the tyre and apply
even thin coat of glue to the rim and let dry (24hrs)(dont put tyre on
yet) . Then apply a thinner coat of glue to the rim and a light
brushing of glue down the centre of the tubular tape, dont get any on
the cotton or silk side walls , if you do wipe off with a
cloth...nothing metal...let dry for one hour, dont let get too
hard...then stretch tubular over the rim (as above), inflate a little
to centre it...make sure the valve is perfectly straight in the rim and
take care to cement the valve area before you inflate, then inflate to
7 atm (105psi) and leave 24 hours to dry before riding...inflate to rec
pressure for tyre and away you go...

Others may have a variation on this... if in doubt ...find an LBS that
does track work and seek their advice. (Hampton Cycles, Ivanhoe,
Kennedy etc)...

most critical thing is to ensure even glue, lumps can cause uneven glue
thickness and the tube may "move" on the rim and "blow"...not pretty.

good luck and grit your teeth and go for it!!


--
rooman

rooman wrote:
Gags Wrote:
I am in the market for a couple of tubular tyres to put on my spare set
of
track wheels........my intention being to use them as a training set,
probably on both outdoor and indoor velodromes. When I got them they
did
have a set of tyres on them but they are pretty old and the rubber has
gone
hard and brittle and so tonight I ripped them off (consequently I now
have
sore thumbs).

I am sure I can find out on the web but can someone in the know
(GemmaK,
Bleve, etc) tell me, do I have to remove all of the glue residue from
the
old tyres before putting new ones on and, if so, what should I use to
get it
off??

I can remember GemmaK telling me that the actual gluing on takes a
while as
you have to put the tyres onto the rim first to pre stretch them, prior
to
actually gluing them on. My thumbs are pretty strong so hopefully I
will be
able to manage OK. I noticed tonight that the tyres had a cloth rim
tape
glued to them.......is this a part of the tyre or does it have to be
glued
on to the rim prior to the tyre being glued on?

Also, anyone got any recommendations for what tyres and glue to buy and
where to get them at a good price. GemmaK did provide this info to me
at
one stage but it is on my old computer that died and so I no longer
have the
emails or the link.

Gags
hmmm...this is a personal thing, but its your neck and you need to have
confidence in your gear and how its put together...

Can only speak for what I use and what goes into the gear I see.

My training tyres are Vittoria C-ompetiton- Atlanta's...got them second
hand $100 a pair, new, unused... I ride them around Carnegie and
sometimes on the road, also have some old Clements I use on the trackie
in Fixie mode on the road...
On the Boards, Have a Mix of Vittoria -Pista- EvoCS and Challenge
-Pista- Handmades...all glued with Vittoria "Mastik"
You could use repaired singles too, Walkers sell them sometimes for
around $20 each... I wouldnt use them or any repaired single for that
matter, but it's your call and if they suit your plans ...

As for removing and gluing...it is an art...some die hards use Shellac
and it was once the case that "only" Shellac could be used on some
tracks back when glues werent so good. ( There are a few who still
swear by Shellac...you just have to find them, then find them in a good
mood and with lots of time)... if you can't...then use a good glue.

I use Vittoria "Mastik" Professional, not cheap, works out close to
$4-$5 a tube and that does one tyre... get it at your LBS.

The tape (note: its part of the tyre, not a rim tape) ...well the tape
on the tyre is necessary, ...( well not always, but gives a level of
comfort if your rims has spoke holes which are sharpish), but on
re-glues it can cause the tyre to be a bit lumpy and might be removed
to get a smoother roll if glue has built up..(I've done this on one of
mine and its ok (6 months so far)

cleaning dirt and glue off the rims isnt that easy, especially if you
come acrosss lousy glue or as some Tubs Ive seen (have been glued on
with) " BondCrete "...sheesh...

Removing dirt and glue from the rims needs some care, use an emery
board for final finishing to get the rim smooth and not damaged...some
wheel mechanics use petrol to clean the rims of glue...but dont use a
file !!.

When gluing you must not get glue into the spoke eyelets,
..pre-stretch the tyre on the rim, start at the top of the rim and
stretch down both sides evenly as you work towards the bottom, then
flip and pop...its on...needs strong thumbs...inflate to about 7 atm
105psi and leave overnight at least...then remove the tyre and apply
even thin coat of glue to the rim and let dry (24hrs)(dont put tyre on
yet) . Then apply a thinner coat of glue to the rim and a light
brushing of glue down the centre of the tubular tape, dont get any on
the cotton or silk side walls , if you do wipe off with a
cloth...nothing metal...let dry for one hour, dont let get too
hard...then stretch tubular over the rim (as above), inflate a little
to centre it...make sure the valve is perfectly straight in the rim and
take care to cement the valve area before you inflate, then inflate to
7 atm (105psi) and leave 24 hours to dry before riding...inflate to rec
pressure for tyre and away you go...

Others may have a variation on this... if in doubt ...find an LBS that
does track work and seek their advice. (Hampton Cycles, Ivanhoe,
Kennedy etc)...

most critical thing is to ensure even glue, lumps can cause uneven glue
thickness and the tube may "move" on the rim and "blow"...not pretty.

good luck and grit your teeth and go for it!!



I've read that you shouldn't inflate a tubular if it's not on the rim
because it can distort the shape of the tyre.
In my experience you put put the tubular on with bare feet, pushing on
the bottom of the rim with your toes and feet whilst pulling the tubular
over the top of the rim. You need strong hands and good strength. Glue
ends up everywhere but is easily cleaned off. Unless you're cycling at a
high level I wouldn't bother with tubulars, modern tyres are quite good.

Friday

"Gags" wrote in message
...
I am in the market for a couple of tubular tyres to put on my spare set of
track wheels........my intention being to use them as a training set,
probably on both outdoor and indoor velodromes. When I got them they did
have a set of tyres on them but they are pretty old and the rubber has gone
hard and brittle and so tonight I ripped them off (consequently I now have
sore thumbs).

I am sure I can find out on the web but can someone in the know (GemmaK,
Bleve, etc) tell me, do I have to remove all of the glue residue from the
old tyres before putting new ones on and, if so, what should I use to get
it off??

I can remember GemmaK telling me that the actual gluing on takes a while
as you have to put the tyres onto the rim first to pre stretch them, prior
to actually gluing them on. My thumbs are pretty strong so hopefully I
will be able to manage OK. I noticed tonight that the tyres had a cloth
rim tape glued to them.......is this a part of the tyre or does it have to
be glued on to the rim prior to the tyre being glued on?

Also, anyone got any recommendations for what tyres and glue to buy and
where to get them at a good price. GemmaK did provide this info to me at
one stage but it is on my old computer that died and so I no longer have
the emails or the link.

Gags


Have a read of those.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/m...-tubulars.html

http://www.parktool.com/repair/readhowto.asp?id=101

The glue can be removed with acetone or even mineral turps ( make sure you
remove all residue )


I just got some nice Vittoria Pista CL tubulars off
http://www.probikekit.com , got them for under $80, they sell for around
$160 in most shops, these are only suitable for indoor timber type tracks
using them on a cement or tar track would destroy them very quickly.
I also got some cheap ( $21 ) foxonall tubulars at the same time to use as
spares for road, and for some of the club road racing, I have glued one onto
a wheel and it seems to be reasonably straight, not as good as a cheap
clincher but it should yield a smooth ride despite the wobble of the less
than perfect made tyre.

I am using some Schwalbe Stelvio tubulars that I got locally for $50 each
for club racing and opens on cement or tar, they are a cheapo road tyre and
seem to perform ok, one was reasonably straight but the one that I put on
the rear has quite a wobble, it is not affecting ride as it is only the two
tone compound that wobbles side to side a bit, no amount of twisting and
resetting it would remove it.

For training your really best to ditch the tubulars and get a set of
clinchers as they are much less hassle in the long run and to be honest
cheap clinchers are better than cheap tubulars, as the cheap tubulars do not
run very straight and tend to be lumpy.
I have clinchers that I use as training and for general club racing on
cement or tar tracks.

And some tips I got recently from my friend who has raced in many world
championship track races

As for removing tubulars off a rim lever a screw driver under it and roll it
around under the tyre to remove it easily without destroying the base tape.

And his recommended glue for track is Continental, I told him I had just
bought a tin of Vittoria and he said don't bother with it for track go and
get some Continental glue, he also suggested that I get rid of all my
tubular wheels and get clinchers.

And he also suggested that I make sure I always use tyre covers on my Pista
CL tubulars as just transporting them in a car can make the side walls fail
due to them rubbing against each other, and not to warm up on them only
race, and when fitting them to the rims do not drag the side walls over the
sides of the rims as they can pick up and damage the sidewalls.

Friday Wrote:


snip...
Glue ends up everywhere but is easily cleaned off. Unless you're
cycling at a
high level I wouldn't bother with tubulars, modern tyres are quite
good.

Friday

No need to get any glue on anything other than where it's meant to
be...if you make a mess you are doing it wrong... the glue has to first
dry (24hrs)on the rim, then a thin ...empahasis _thin_, coat on rim and
tyre, let dry about an hour, it will be touch dry.

Friday...I think you should leave well enough alone! better still go
see Greg Griffiths at Ivanhoe Cycles, he knows tubulars, shellac, glue
and combinations for the best outcome.... if you want to ride safely,
do it right...

(IMO)I am loathe to race against anyone using High Pressures on the
track...why...generally most HP users overinflate, they have a flat
and the tube comes off the rim at speed...bad news for
everyone...Tubulars are glued to the rim, you can run it morer safely
flat and slow down keeping some control...goes for the road and the
track... tubulars just need some service support but they roll better,
and are overall safer (IMO).

Sure they are a good option to get people going and new riders started
up at a lower cost...soon when the bug bites, youll want to be refining
your technique and gear, and when its down to tenths and hundreds of
seconds then these choices matter.


--
rooman

Gags Wrote:
I am in the market for a couple of tubular tyres to put on my spare set
of
track wheels........my intention being to use them as a training set,
probably on both outdoor and indoor velodromes. When I got them they
did
have a set of tyres on them but they are pretty old and the rubber has
gone
hard and brittle and so tonight I ripped them off (consequently I now
have
sore thumbs).

I am sure I can find out on the web but can someone in the know
(GemmaK,
Bleve, etc) tell me, do I have to remove all of the glue residue from
the
old tyres before putting new ones on and, if so, what should I use to
get it
off??

I can remember GemmaK telling me that the actual gluing on takes a
while as
you have to put the tyres onto the rim first to pre stretch them, prior
to
actually gluing them on. My thumbs are pretty strong so hopefully I
will be
able to manage OK. I noticed tonight that the tyres had a cloth rim
tape
glued to them.......is this a part of the tyre or does it have to be
glued
on to the rim prior to the tyre being glued on?

Also, anyone got any recommendations for what tyres and glue to buy
and
where to get them at a good price. GemmaK did provide this info to me
at
one stage but it is on my old computer that died and so I no longer
have the
emails or the link.

Gags


Gags, have you checked out fixedgearfever.com? Do a search through
their forums for some excellent discussion on tyre choice, and gluing
the buggers onto your rims. Here is a link to the faq on the site:

http://www.fixedgearfever.com/modules.php?name=FAQ

There is also a good piece of research done on glue types (referenced
somewhere on fgf). Mastik come out tops, closely followed by
continental. My (vittoria) tubs are glued on with conty glue, and I
have had no issue. I get my tubs from probikekit for obvious reasons.


--
warrwych

"Friday" wrote in message
...
In my experience you put put the tubular on with bare feet, pushing on the
bottom of the rim with your toes and feet whilst pulling the tubular over
the top of the rim. You need strong hands and good strength. Glue ends up
everywhere but is easily cleaned off.

If you have got glue everywhere you're doing it wrong....!

Good Tyre choices (from my experience) for indoor/outdoor tracks:
Continental Tempo http://www.probikekit.com/display.php?code=Y1256 or
Continental Competition (if your outdoor track gets glass on it):
http://www.probikekit.com/display.php?code=Y1111
Tufo S3 Pro
http://www.bikemania.biz/Tufo_S3_PRO...ro_t_tires.htm

For indoor$ only:
Tufo S3Lite
Continental Sondeclasse
Vittoria Pista http://www.probikekit.com/display.php?code=Y1210

The Tufo's are the roundest tyres of them all...

All the indoor-only tyres have very fragile sidewalls, and extremely poor
puncture resistance (ie you'll get a puncture wheeling your bike in the
carpark or frmo riding over a bit of gravel on the track).
The Vittoria Pista also has a very thin latex innertube which means it goes
flat pretty quickly (ie have to pump up lunchtime again at an all-day meet).
I either use Vittoria Mastic 1 (the red one), or Continental glue. For
tyres that are reglued often I prefer continental glue, it doens't build up
too thick.

I had the pleasure of watching one of the agritubel mechanics gluing on
singles last week and he used exactly the same method as me! Which is:

Prestretch tyres (preferably on spare rim, or else stretch using your feet
and hands)
Clean rim with acetone, if it has glue on it already that's OK as long as
it's not chunky/lumpy. I like a layer of glue on there already, it reacts
with new glue anyway. If you clean it properly with acetone there's no need
to do any sanding on new rims. I only sand lumps of old glue off.
Pump up tyre until it just starts turning inside out.
Use paintbrush (or continental glue applicator) to paint a thin layer on
both the rim and tyre. Go right to the edges on both. It is the edges that
give the bond its strength. Try not to gloop too much down the spoke holes
and valve hole (some wheelbuilders plug spokeholes with cork).
Let dry.
If tyre has a very absorbant rim tape (ie continental or Tufo) put on
another thin layer on the base tape.
When all is dry, put on another thin layer on the rim. Wait until it's
quite dry and not too tacky. This can be as little as 5mins for continental
glue on a warm day or over an hour for the gluggier Vittoria Mastic. If it
looks like it will be messy, it's not dry enough! The pro mechanic waited
about 10 minutes with Conti Glue :-)
Make sure the floor is clean. Clean tiles are good.
Place the wheel valve side up on the floor.
Deflate tyre and take your shoes off.
Poke valve thru valve hole - straight! & Using all your strength grip the
tyre about 20cm each side of the valve, tension the tyre as much as possible
and stretch the tyre equally on to the rim. The glue is a contact adhesive
and will stick as it lands on the rim. Keep doing a few times as you work
the tyre on you're at 20-to-4o'clock.
Turn wheel over and use your big toes to hold wheel down as you pinch/pull
the last bit of tyre and lift it onto the rim**. It's a sort of pinching,
rolling movement. If you have been stretching it on early it's pretty easy.
(**if you are working with a deep dish wheel or disk, put the valve end of
the wheel against your middle and grip the wheel with your guts by bending
over as you work the last bit of tyre on (not a good look but it works)
Pump up tyre enough so it has it's reasonable shape (about 50psi)
Spin wheel and check it's in the middle. Work the wobbles out quickly by
breaking the glue contact by rolling tyre back and forth in that section and
get the tyre back to the middle.
Pump up tyre to max.
Weight the tyre (either put it in the bike, get on and roll tyre back and
forth, or else just lean on it with all your weight section by section) to
get the maximum glue contact.
Leave for at least 8hrs (Conti glue) or 24hrs for Mastic.
Done. Use acetone to clean the floor if you left a stripe of glue behind.
Enjoy the glue fumes.

I learnt a trick from the mechanic - to get the tyres off again he didn't
ruin his thumbs... he simply worked a thin screwdriver under the tyre and
poked it out the other side. Then he grabbed onto both ends of the
screwdriver and just forced it around the rim - voi-la!

I will try that next time.
Here is the blistery result of me peeling one of my well-glued track tyres
off:
http://img11.picsplace.to/img.php?fi...2/IMG_1172.JPG
http://img4.picsplace.to/img.php?fil...9/IMG_1173.JPG

Gemm

"Gemma_k" wrote in message
news snip
http://img11.picsplace.to/img.php?fi...2/IMG_1172.JPG
http://img4.picsplace.to/img.php?fil...9/IMG_1173.JPG

Gemm


Not a good idea to post a pic up with your mobile number shown on the Optus
bill in the background :S

"Boostland" wrote in message
...

"Gemma_k" wrote in message
news snip
http://img11.picsplace.to/img.php?fi...2/IMG_1172.JPG
http://img4.picsplace.to/img.php?fil...9/IMG_1173.JPG

Gemm


Not a good idea to post a pic up with your mobile number shown on the
Optus bill in the background :S
Ha, Say that. But not my number, if you see the bill is for "Mr" someone.
Which I am not :-P