Coaster Brake Failure

Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Friday, March 1, 2019 at 6:19:03 AM UTC-5, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Fri, 1 Mar 2019 02:17:00 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Friday, March 1, 2019 at 4:12:51 AM UTC-5, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Fri, 1 Mar 2019 00:29:21 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Thursday, February 28, 2019 at 9:31:16 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
On 2/28/2019 6:49 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-02-27 14:47, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Wed, 27 Feb 2019 08:09:04 -0800, Joerg

wrote:

On 2019-02-25 11:42, Tosspot wrote:
On 2/25/19 5:06 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-02-25 07:29, Ralph Barone wrote:
AMuzi wrote:
https://www.bicycleretailer.com/reca...nd-aftermarket





Mysterious. How the hell did that happen in a design
100+ years
old?

They must have improved it.


In German there is the inofficial word
"verschlimmbessern". It sums
up the action of "Here we have a working design but
let's optimize it
anyhow" and then it all goes to pots. A very common
scenario in
software design.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gp_D8r-2hwk


Sometimes those things happen for reasons Tom mentioned.
People using
library modules that others have written, assuming
everything in those
we be just fine. And then things aren't.

This is one of the reasons why I prefer gear with the
least amount of
electronics and software in there and, for example, will
never be caught
with electronic shifters on a bicycle.

True, but then people also have had the metal shift cables
break and
been restricted to a single gear. It appears that
everything is
subject to failure :-)


That is very rare, more so than a derailer ripped away by a
rock.

Main thing is, with batteries the number of available shifts
per charge is finite. I was told that front shifts are
especially hard on the battery and on mountainous
singletrack that's used a lot.

If I had north of $1k burning in my pocket I'd rather spend
that on a Rohloff. That one allows shifts across the
complete gear range at very low or zero speed which is very
useful in MTB riding. To heck with the extra weight.


Old fashioned junk. Try to keep up:

https://bikerumor.com/2019/02/24/rot...pset-at-1785g/

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Plus it's not expensive at all.

From the linked page:

"A complete groupset of shift & brake levers, brake calipers &
rotors, and the new 13-speed rear derailleur sells for $1830 / 1667€
(cranks, chainring & chain excluded). Add in another $415 / 380-400€
extra for the 13-speed cassette (plus the need for a specific hub) or
$365 / 334-350€ for a 12-speed version to work with your existing
Shimano freehub wheels."

A groupset that does NOT include the crankset, the chinrings, the
chain, the cassette or the hubs? Doesn't sound like much of a groupset to me.

$415.00 US JUST for a 13 gear cassette? Bring back the old 14 speed 2 x 7 setup! LOL

Cheers

BUT! It's NEW!

Actually I have 9 speed cassettes on two of my three bikes with either
dual or triple chain rings which gives me either 18 speeds or 27
speeds at a much, much lower price.

The third has a 10 speed setup because I got a pair of 10 speed STI
shifters almost free so cobbled up a 10 speed cassette and to be frank
I really can't tell the difference between 9 and 10 speed.

--
Cheers,
John B.

I too have a couple of bicycles with 9 speed x 3 chainrings. One is a 9
speed Veloce 30 - 42 - 52 set with a Veloce rear derailler and Mirage 9
speed shifters (ratchet left shifter) because the Mirage was the same
inside as the Veloce but a lot less $.

To keep selling components or frames even, manufacturers MUST come up
with NEW stuff and Marketting has to convince bicyclists that the
bicyclist MUST HAVE this latest doo dad.

On one of my bicycles I have a 9 gear 11 - 19 teeth corncob cluster on
it that I made up for fun from some 9 speed cassettes plus one cog from
an 8 speed cassette. It shifts just fine with the friction shifters I'm
using on that bike.

Cheers

It's been a few (more than a few) years but when I had a 7 speed with
2 chain rings I can't remember ever feeling that I needed more.I can
see the possibility of someone who raced wanting very close spaced
gears but for the average Joe I really doubt that they would average
any faster on, say a 2 hour ride, with a seven speed as opposed to a 9
or ten speed.

As far as cassettes go, I did the same thing on my "Bangkok bike".
Bangkok is built on an alluvial plain and there might be one tooth
difference in riding north as apposed to riding south and the only
hills are bridges. On a 20 km ride I might shift once. I built a 13 -
25 cassette as you did out of a bunch of loose cogs. With 50-42 chain
rings I've never wanted for more.

--
Cheers,
John B.

it would not surprise me to see the next great thing in bicycling being
an internally geared bottom bracket. Then you could have the equivalent
of at least three or four chainrings with nothing exposed.

You know, it's be interesting to calculate the gear jumps on that 13
speed cluster and then compare those with the jumps on a 7 or 8 speed cluster.

Cheers

"Internally geared bottom bracket"? You mean, like a Schlumpf drive?

http://www.schlumpfdrive.com/index.php/home-en.html

On 3/1/2019 4:12 AM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Fri, 1 Mar 2019 00:29:21 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Thursday, February 28, 2019 at 9:31:16 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:

Old fashioned junk. Try to keep up:

https://bikerumor.com/2019/02/24/rot...pset-at-1785g/

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Plus it's not expensive at all.

From the linked page:

"A complete groupset of shift & brake levers, brake calipers & rotors, and the new 13-speed rear derailleur sells for $1830 / 1667€ (cranks, chainring & chain excluded). Add in another $415 / 380-400€ extra for the 13-speed cassette (plus the need for a specific hub) or $365 / 334-350€ for a 12-speed version to work with your existing Shimano freehub wheels."

A groupset that does NOT include the crankset, the chinrings, the chain, the cassette or the hubs? Doesn't sound like much of a groupset to me.

$415.00 US JUST for a 13 gear cassette? Bring back the old 14 speed 2 x 7 setup! LOL

Cheers

BUT! It's NEW!

Actually I have 9 speed cassettes on two of my three bikes with either
dual or triple chain rings which gives me either 18 speeds or 27
speeds at a much, much lower price.

The third has a 10 speed setup because I got a pair of 10 speed STI
shifters almost free so cobbled up a 10 speed cassette and to be frank
I really can't tell the difference between 9 and 10 speed.

I've only ridden a modern 1x gear train one time, borrowing a friend's
bike. It worked fine, but nothing so amazing as to want me to replace
what I have on any bike.

Please correct me if necessary, but as I understand it, the benefits are
1) you don't have to think about shifting the front, because the front
doesn't shift; and 2) the shifts are a little bit better because the
chain slack doesn't change from big ring to small ring, so the
derailleur is in a more constant position.

Beyond those two, there might be microscopic benefits regarding
aerodynamics, weight, and maybe feng shui...

But I think this all shows how deep the bicycling world has sunk into
diminishing returns. Those who are entranced by the slightly better
shifting seem like pianists who say "I play only on Steinways, their
action is so much better than Baldwins."

Sheesh! It's a bicycle! You're shifting gears, not playing Bach.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/1/2019 4:12 AM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Fri, 1 Mar 2019 00:29:21 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Thursday, February 28, 2019 at 9:31:16 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:

Old fashioned junk. Try to keep up:

https://bikerumor.com/2019/02/24/rot...pset-at-1785g/

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Plus it's not expensive at all.

From the linked page:

"A complete groupset of shift & brake levers, brake calipers & rotors,
and the new 13-speed rear derailleur sells for $1830 / 1667€ (cranks,
chainring & chain excluded). Add in another $415 / 380-400€ extra for
the 13-speed cassette (plus the need for a specific hub) or $365 /
334-350€ for a 12-speed version to work with your existing Shimano freehub wheels."

A groupset that does NOT include the crankset, the chinrings, the
chain, the cassette or the hubs? Doesn't sound like much of a groupset to me.

$415.00 US JUST for a 13 gear cassette? Bring back the old 14 speed 2 x 7 setup! LOL

Cheers

BUT! It's NEW!

Actually I have 9 speed cassettes on two of my three bikes with either
dual or triple chain rings which gives me either 18 speeds or 27
speeds at a much, much lower price.

The third has a 10 speed setup because I got a pair of 10 speed STI
shifters almost free so cobbled up a 10 speed cassette and to be frank
I really can't tell the difference between 9 and 10 speed.

I've only ridden a modern 1x gear train one time, borrowing a friend's
bike. It worked fine, but nothing so amazing as to want me to replace
what I have on any bike.

Please correct me if necessary, but as I understand it, the benefits are
1) you don't have to think about shifting the front, because the front
doesn't shift; and 2) the shifts are a little bit better because the
chain slack doesn't change from big ring to small ring, so the
derailleur is in a more constant position.

Beyond those two, there might be microscopic benefits regarding
aerodynamics, weight, and maybe feng shui...

But I think this all shows how deep the bicycling world has sunk into
diminishing returns. Those who are entranced by the slightly better
shifting seem like pianists who say "I play only on Steinways, their
action is so much better than Baldwins."

Sheesh! It's a bicycle! You're shifting gears, not playing Bach.


On a rear derailleur, the shifting occurs on the untensioned part of the
chain, while the front derailleur has to shift the tensioned part of the
chain. Therefore front shifting will always be worse than rear shifting.
That's what a 1x system aims for. However, the front shifting on my 3x9
system, while worse than the rear, is still "good enough", and in return I
get a wide hearing range.

On Friday, March 1, 2019 at 11:27:17 AM UTC-5, Ralph Barone wrote:
Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Friday, March 1, 2019 at 6:19:03 AM UTC-5, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Fri, 1 Mar 2019 02:17:00 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Friday, March 1, 2019 at 4:12:51 AM UTC-5, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Fri, 1 Mar 2019 00:29:21 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Thursday, February 28, 2019 at 9:31:16 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
On 2/28/2019 6:49 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-02-27 14:47, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Wed, 27 Feb 2019 08:09:04 -0800, Joerg

wrote:

On 2019-02-25 11:42, Tosspot wrote:
On 2/25/19 5:06 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-02-25 07:29, Ralph Barone wrote:
AMuzi wrote:
https://www.bicycleretailer.com/reca...nd-aftermarket





Mysterious. How the hell did that happen in a design
100+ years
old?

They must have improved it.


In German there is the inofficial word
"verschlimmbessern". It sums
up the action of "Here we have a working design but
let's optimize it
anyhow" and then it all goes to pots. A very common
scenario in
software design.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gp_D8r-2hwk


Sometimes those things happen for reasons Tom mentioned.
People using
library modules that others have written, assuming
everything in those
we be just fine. And then things aren't.

This is one of the reasons why I prefer gear with the
least amount of
electronics and software in there and, for example, will
never be caught
with electronic shifters on a bicycle.

True, but then people also have had the metal shift cables
break and
been restricted to a single gear. It appears that
everything is
subject to failure :-)


That is very rare, more so than a derailer ripped away by a
rock.

Main thing is, with batteries the number of available shifts
per charge is finite. I was told that front shifts are
especially hard on the battery and on mountainous
singletrack that's used a lot.

If I had north of $1k burning in my pocket I'd rather spend
that on a Rohloff. That one allows shifts across the
complete gear range at very low or zero speed which is very
useful in MTB riding. To heck with the extra weight.


Old fashioned junk. Try to keep up:

https://bikerumor.com/2019/02/24/rot...pset-at-1785g/

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Plus it's not expensive at all.

From the linked page:

"A complete groupset of shift & brake levers, brake calipers &
rotors, and the new 13-speed rear derailleur sells for $1830 / 1667€
(cranks, chainring & chain excluded). Add in another $415 / 380-400€
extra for the 13-speed cassette (plus the need for a specific hub) or
$365 / 334-350€ for a 12-speed version to work with your existing
Shimano freehub wheels."

A groupset that does NOT include the crankset, the chinrings, the
chain, the cassette or the hubs? Doesn't sound like much of a groupset to me.

$415.00 US JUST for a 13 gear cassette? Bring back the old 14 speed 2 x 7 setup! LOL

Cheers

BUT! It's NEW!

Actually I have 9 speed cassettes on two of my three bikes with either
dual or triple chain rings which gives me either 18 speeds or 27
speeds at a much, much lower price.

The third has a 10 speed setup because I got a pair of 10 speed STI
shifters almost free so cobbled up a 10 speed cassette and to be frank
I really can't tell the difference between 9 and 10 speed.

--
Cheers,
John B.

I too have a couple of bicycles with 9 speed x 3 chainrings. One is a 9
speed Veloce 30 - 42 - 52 set with a Veloce rear derailler and Mirage 9
speed shifters (ratchet left shifter) because the Mirage was the same
inside as the Veloce but a lot less $.

To keep selling components or frames even, manufacturers MUST come up
with NEW stuff and Marketting has to convince bicyclists that the
bicyclist MUST HAVE this latest doo dad.

On one of my bicycles I have a 9 gear 11 - 19 teeth corncob cluster on
it that I made up for fun from some 9 speed cassettes plus one cog from
an 8 speed cassette. It shifts just fine with the friction shifters I'm
using on that bike.

Cheers

It's been a few (more than a few) years but when I had a 7 speed with
2 chain rings I can't remember ever feeling that I needed more.I can
see the possibility of someone who raced wanting very close spaced
gears but for the average Joe I really doubt that they would average
any faster on, say a 2 hour ride, with a seven speed as opposed to a 9
or ten speed.

As far as cassettes go, I did the same thing on my "Bangkok bike".
Bangkok is built on an alluvial plain and there might be one tooth
difference in riding north as apposed to riding south and the only
hills are bridges. On a 20 km ride I might shift once. I built a 13 -
25 cassette as you did out of a bunch of loose cogs. With 50-42 chain
rings I've never wanted for more.

--
Cheers,
John B.

it would not surprise me to see the next great thing in bicycling being
an internally geared bottom bracket. Then you could have the equivalent
of at least three or four chainrings with nothing exposed.

You know, it's be interesting to calculate the gear jumps on that 13
speed cluster and then compare those with the jumps on a 7 or 8 speed cluster.

Cheers

"Internally geared bottom bracket"? You mean, like a Schlumpf drive?

http://www.schlumpfdrive.com/index.php/home-en.html

I wonder what would happen if you coupled that with the 13 rear cogs system mentioned upthread?

Cheers

On Friday, March 1, 2019 at 9:40:38 AM UTC-8, Ralph Barone wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/1/2019 4:12 AM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Fri, 1 Mar 2019 00:29:21 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Thursday, February 28, 2019 at 9:31:16 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:

Old fashioned junk. Try to keep up:

https://bikerumor.com/2019/02/24/rot...pset-at-1785g/

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Plus it's not expensive at all.

From the linked page:

"A complete groupset of shift & brake levers, brake calipers & rotors,
and the new 13-speed rear derailleur sells for $1830 / 1667€ (cranks,
chainring & chain excluded). Add in another $415 / 380-400€ extra for
the 13-speed cassette (plus the need for a specific hub) or $365 /
334-350€ for a 12-speed version to work with your existing Shimano freehub wheels."

A groupset that does NOT include the crankset, the chinrings, the
chain, the cassette or the hubs? Doesn't sound like much of a groupset to me.

$415.00 US JUST for a 13 gear cassette? Bring back the old 14 speed 2 x 7 setup! LOL

Cheers

BUT! It's NEW!

Actually I have 9 speed cassettes on two of my three bikes with either
dual or triple chain rings which gives me either 18 speeds or 27
speeds at a much, much lower price.

The third has a 10 speed setup because I got a pair of 10 speed STI
shifters almost free so cobbled up a 10 speed cassette and to be frank
I really can't tell the difference between 9 and 10 speed.

I've only ridden a modern 1x gear train one time, borrowing a friend's
bike. It worked fine, but nothing so amazing as to want me to replace
what I have on any bike.

Please correct me if necessary, but as I understand it, the benefits are
1) you don't have to think about shifting the front, because the front
doesn't shift; and 2) the shifts are a little bit better because the
chain slack doesn't change from big ring to small ring, so the
derailleur is in a more constant position.

Beyond those two, there might be microscopic benefits regarding
aerodynamics, weight, and maybe feng shui...

But I think this all shows how deep the bicycling world has sunk into
diminishing returns. Those who are entranced by the slightly better
shifting seem like pianists who say "I play only on Steinways, their
action is so much better than Baldwins."

Sheesh! It's a bicycle! You're shifting gears, not playing Bach.


On a rear derailleur, the shifting occurs on the untensioned part of the
chain, while the front derailleur has to shift the tensioned part of the
chain. Therefore front shifting will always be worse than rear shifting.
That's what a 1x system aims for. However, the front shifting on my 3x9
system, while worse than the rear, is still "good enough", and in return I
get a wide hearing range.

The indexing of the front derailleur is what is all screwed up. A hydraulic front shifter could be arranged to be a lot better and gain alignments as accurate as the old friction shifting.

On Friday, March 1, 2019 at 9:51:53 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Friday, March 1, 2019 at 9:40:38 AM UTC-8, Ralph Barone wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/1/2019 4:12 AM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Fri, 1 Mar 2019 00:29:21 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Thursday, February 28, 2019 at 9:31:16 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:

Old fashioned junk. Try to keep up:

https://bikerumor.com/2019/02/24/rot...pset-at-1785g/

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Plus it's not expensive at all.

From the linked page:

"A complete groupset of shift & brake levers, brake calipers & rotors,
and the new 13-speed rear derailleur sells for $1830 / 1667€ (cranks,
chainring & chain excluded). Add in another $415 / 380-400€ extra for
the 13-speed cassette (plus the need for a specific hub) or $365 /
334-350€ for a 12-speed version to work with your existing Shimano freehub wheels."

A groupset that does NOT include the crankset, the chinrings, the
chain, the cassette or the hubs? Doesn't sound like much of a groupset to me.

$415.00 US JUST for a 13 gear cassette? Bring back the old 14 speed 2 x 7 setup! LOL

Cheers

BUT! It's NEW!

Actually I have 9 speed cassettes on two of my three bikes with either
dual or triple chain rings which gives me either 18 speeds or 27
speeds at a much, much lower price.

The third has a 10 speed setup because I got a pair of 10 speed STI
shifters almost free so cobbled up a 10 speed cassette and to be frank
I really can't tell the difference between 9 and 10 speed.

I've only ridden a modern 1x gear train one time, borrowing a friend's
bike. It worked fine, but nothing so amazing as to want me to replace
what I have on any bike.

Please correct me if necessary, but as I understand it, the benefits are
1) you don't have to think about shifting the front, because the front
doesn't shift; and 2) the shifts are a little bit better because the
chain slack doesn't change from big ring to small ring, so the
derailleur is in a more constant position.

Beyond those two, there might be microscopic benefits regarding
aerodynamics, weight, and maybe feng shui...

But I think this all shows how deep the bicycling world has sunk into
diminishing returns. Those who are entranced by the slightly better
shifting seem like pianists who say "I play only on Steinways, their
action is so much better than Baldwins."

Sheesh! It's a bicycle! You're shifting gears, not playing Bach.


On a rear derailleur, the shifting occurs on the untensioned part of the
chain, while the front derailleur has to shift the tensioned part of the
chain. Therefore front shifting will always be worse than rear shifting..
That's what a 1x system aims for. However, the front shifting on my 3x9
system, while worse than the rear, is still "good enough", and in return I
get a wide hearing range.

The indexing of the front derailleur is what is all screwed up. A hydraulic front shifter could be arranged to be a lot better and gain alignments as accurate as the old friction shifting.

Di2 takes care of that by automatically trimming the FD. FD shifting is one of the big selling points of Di2. What I don't like is the lock-out of the last two cogs while on the small ring which, AFAIK, cannot be overridden by the consumer. Those are usable cogs on my cable shift bikes. The FD also will not shift down if you are in the last two cogs in the big ring.

-- Jay Beattie.

On 3/1/2019 11:49 AM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Friday, March 1, 2019 at 11:27:17 AM UTC-5, Ralph Barone wrote:
Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Friday, March 1, 2019 at 6:19:03 AM UTC-5, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Fri, 1 Mar 2019 02:17:00 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Friday, March 1, 2019 at 4:12:51 AM UTC-5, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Fri, 1 Mar 2019 00:29:21 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Thursday, February 28, 2019 at 9:31:16 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
On 2/28/2019 6:49 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-02-27 14:47, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Wed, 27 Feb 2019 08:09:04 -0800, Joerg

wrote:

On 2019-02-25 11:42, Tosspot wrote:
On 2/25/19 5:06 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-02-25 07:29, Ralph Barone wrote:
AMuzi wrote:
https://www.bicycleretailer.com/reca...nd-aftermarket





Mysterious. How the hell did that happen in a design
100+ years
old?

They must have improved it.


In German there is the inofficial word
"verschlimmbessern". It sums
up the action of "Here we have a working design but
let's optimize it
anyhow" and then it all goes to pots. A very common
scenario in
software design.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gp_D8r-2hwk


Sometimes those things happen for reasons Tom mentioned.
People using
library modules that others have written, assuming
everything in those
we be just fine. And then things aren't.

This is one of the reasons why I prefer gear with the
least amount of
electronics and software in there and, for example, will
never be caught
with electronic shifters on a bicycle.

True, but then people also have had the metal shift cables
break and
been restricted to a single gear. It appears that
everything is
subject to failure :-)


That is very rare, more so than a derailer ripped away by a
rock.

Main thing is, with batteries the number of available shifts
per charge is finite. I was told that front shifts are
especially hard on the battery and on mountainous
singletrack that's used a lot.

If I had north of $1k burning in my pocket I'd rather spend
that on a Rohloff. That one allows shifts across the
complete gear range at very low or zero speed which is very
useful in MTB riding. To heck with the extra weight.


Old fashioned junk. Try to keep up:

https://bikerumor.com/2019/02/24/rot...pset-at-1785g/

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Plus it's not expensive at all.

From the linked page:

"A complete groupset of shift & brake levers, brake calipers &
rotors, and the new 13-speed rear derailleur sells for $1830 / 1667€
(cranks, chainring & chain excluded). Add in another $415 / 380-400€
extra for the 13-speed cassette (plus the need for a specific hub) or
$365 / 334-350€ for a 12-speed version to work with your existing
Shimano freehub wheels."

A groupset that does NOT include the crankset, the chinrings, the
chain, the cassette or the hubs? Doesn't sound like much of a groupset to me.

$415.00 US JUST for a 13 gear cassette? Bring back the old 14 speed 2 x 7 setup! LOL

Cheers

BUT! It's NEW!

Actually I have 9 speed cassettes on two of my three bikes with either
dual or triple chain rings which gives me either 18 speeds or 27
speeds at a much, much lower price.

The third has a 10 speed setup because I got a pair of 10 speed STI
shifters almost free so cobbled up a 10 speed cassette and to be frank
I really can't tell the difference between 9 and 10 speed.

--
Cheers,
John B.

I too have a couple of bicycles with 9 speed x 3 chainrings. One is a 9
speed Veloce 30 - 42 - 52 set with a Veloce rear derailler and Mirage 9
speed shifters (ratchet left shifter) because the Mirage was the same
inside as the Veloce but a lot less $.

To keep selling components or frames even, manufacturers MUST come up
with NEW stuff and Marketting has to convince bicyclists that the
bicyclist MUST HAVE this latest doo dad.

On one of my bicycles I have a 9 gear 11 - 19 teeth corncob cluster on
it that I made up for fun from some 9 speed cassettes plus one cog from
an 8 speed cassette. It shifts just fine with the friction shifters I'm
using on that bike.

Cheers

It's been a few (more than a few) years but when I had a 7 speed with
2 chain rings I can't remember ever feeling that I needed more.I can
see the possibility of someone who raced wanting very close spaced
gears but for the average Joe I really doubt that they would average
any faster on, say a 2 hour ride, with a seven speed as opposed to a 9
or ten speed.

As far as cassettes go, I did the same thing on my "Bangkok bike".
Bangkok is built on an alluvial plain and there might be one tooth
difference in riding north as apposed to riding south and the only
hills are bridges. On a 20 km ride I might shift once. I built a 13 -
25 cassette as you did out of a bunch of loose cogs. With 50-42 chain
rings I've never wanted for more.

--
Cheers,
John B.

it would not surprise me to see the next great thing in bicycling being
an internally geared bottom bracket. Then you could have the equivalent
of at least three or four chainrings with nothing exposed.

You know, it's be interesting to calculate the gear jumps on that 13
speed cluster and then compare those with the jumps on a 7 or 8 speed cluster.

Cheers

"Internally geared bottom bracket"? You mean, like a Schlumpf drive?

http://www.schlumpfdrive.com/index.php/home-en.html

I wonder what would happen if you coupled that with the 13 rear cogs system mentioned upthread?

Cheers


I would still prefer my fixie for most rides. YMMV.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Frank Krygowski writes:

On 2/28/2019 7:49 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-02-27 14:47, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Wed, 27 Feb 2019 08:09:04 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

On 2019-02-25 11:42, Tosspot wrote:
On 2/25/19 5:06 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-02-25 07:29, Ralph Barone wrote:
AMuzi wrote:
https://www.bicycleretailer.com/reca...nd-aftermarket





Mysterious. How the hell did that happen in a design 100+ years
old?

They must have improved it.


In German there is the inofficial word "verschlimmbessern". It sums
up the action of "Here we have a working design but let's optimize it
Â* anyhow" and then it all goes to pots. A very common scenario in
software design.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gp_D8r-2hwk


Sometimes those things happen for reasons Tom mentioned. People using
library modules that others have written, assuming everything in those
we be just fine. And then things aren't.

This is one of the reasons why I prefer gear with the least amount of
electronics and software in there and, for example, will never be caught
with electronic shifters on a bicycle.

True, but then people also have had the metal shift cables break and
been restricted to a single gear. It appears that everything is
subject to failure :-)


That is very rare, more so than a derailer ripped away by a rock.

Well, for me it's been rare, but it's happened maybe three times. It's
why my touring bike has a spare rear derailleur cable in among its
tools.

The worst event was on an 80 mile, super-hilly ride I used to lead. My
cable snapped at the shifter just as I was starting the toughest
climb. I did make it to the top, then pulled over to change the
cable. I found to my dismay that my spare cable was too short. (My
touring bike has a long wheelbase, and I run the cables from the
bar-end shifters under the handlebar tape. I need a cable longer than
73".)

So I decided to run the new cable from the shifter, and tie it to the
remains of the old cable, knotting it along the down tube. That's when
I found that it's about impossible to tie two cables together using
knots. I eventually did it, but my friends had to wait 20 minutes or
more.

Do you remember how you knotted it? I wonder if there is a recommendable
knot for small twisted steel cables -- fisherman's bend?


--

On Friday, March 1, 2019 at 7:10:32 PM UTC+1, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, March 1, 2019 at 9:51:53 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Friday, March 1, 2019 at 9:40:38 AM UTC-8, Ralph Barone wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/1/2019 4:12 AM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Fri, 1 Mar 2019 00:29:21 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Thursday, February 28, 2019 at 9:31:16 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:

Old fashioned junk. Try to keep up:

https://bikerumor.com/2019/02/24/rot...pset-at-1785g/

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Plus it's not expensive at all.

From the linked page:

"A complete groupset of shift & brake levers, brake calipers & rotors,
and the new 13-speed rear derailleur sells for $1830 / 1667€ (cranks,
chainring & chain excluded). Add in another $415 / 380-400€ extra for
the 13-speed cassette (plus the need for a specific hub) or $365 /
334-350€ for a 12-speed version to work with your existing Shimano freehub wheels."

A groupset that does NOT include the crankset, the chinrings, the
chain, the cassette or the hubs? Doesn't sound like much of a groupset to me.

$415.00 US JUST for a 13 gear cassette? Bring back the old 14 speed 2 x 7 setup! LOL

Cheers

BUT! It's NEW!

Actually I have 9 speed cassettes on two of my three bikes with either
dual or triple chain rings which gives me either 18 speeds or 27
speeds at a much, much lower price.

The third has a 10 speed setup because I got a pair of 10 speed STI
shifters almost free so cobbled up a 10 speed cassette and to be frank
I really can't tell the difference between 9 and 10 speed.

I've only ridden a modern 1x gear train one time, borrowing a friend's
bike. It worked fine, but nothing so amazing as to want me to replace
what I have on any bike.

Please correct me if necessary, but as I understand it, the benefits are
1) you don't have to think about shifting the front, because the front
doesn't shift; and 2) the shifts are a little bit better because the
chain slack doesn't change from big ring to small ring, so the
derailleur is in a more constant position.

Beyond those two, there might be microscopic benefits regarding
aerodynamics, weight, and maybe feng shui...

But I think this all shows how deep the bicycling world has sunk into
diminishing returns. Those who are entranced by the slightly better
shifting seem like pianists who say "I play only on Steinways, their
action is so much better than Baldwins."

Sheesh! It's a bicycle! You're shifting gears, not playing Bach.


On a rear derailleur, the shifting occurs on the untensioned part of the
chain, while the front derailleur has to shift the tensioned part of the
chain. Therefore front shifting will always be worse than rear shifting.
That's what a 1x system aims for. However, the front shifting on my 3x9
system, while worse than the rear, is still "good enough", and in return I
get a wide hearing range.

The indexing of the front derailleur is what is all screwed up. A hydraulic front shifter could be arranged to be a lot better and gain alignments as accurate as the old friction shifting.

Di2 takes care of that by automatically trimming the FD. FD shifting is one of the big selling points of Di2. What I don't like is the lock-out of the last two cogs while on the small ring which, AFAIK, cannot be overridden by the consumer. Those are usable cogs on my cable shift bikes. The FD also will not shift down if you are in the last two cogs in the big ring.

-- Jay Beattie.

Jay, on my cross bike with a 2014 Di2 Ultegra setup I can shift any combination. On my road bike with a 2018 Di2 DA setup I encounter the behavior you describe, but IIRC you can overrule this software setting. I think this is a useful setting though.

Lou

Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Friday, March 1, 2019 at 11:27:17 AM UTC-5, Ralph Barone wrote:
Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Friday, March 1, 2019 at 6:19:03 AM UTC-5, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Fri, 1 Mar 2019 02:17:00 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Friday, March 1, 2019 at 4:12:51 AM UTC-5, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Fri, 1 Mar 2019 00:29:21 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Thursday, February 28, 2019 at 9:31:16 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
On 2/28/2019 6:49 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-02-27 14:47, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Wed, 27 Feb 2019 08:09:04 -0800, Joerg

wrote:

On 2019-02-25 11:42, Tosspot wrote:
On 2/25/19 5:06 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-02-25 07:29, Ralph Barone wrote:
AMuzi wrote:
https://www.bicycleretailer.com/reca...nd-aftermarket





Mysterious. How the hell did that happen in a design
100+ years
old?

They must have improved it.


In German there is the inofficial word
"verschlimmbessern". It sums
up the action of "Here we have a working design but
let's optimize it
anyhow" and then it all goes to pots. A very common
scenario in
software design.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gp_D8r-2hwk


Sometimes those things happen for reasons Tom mentioned.
People using
library modules that others have written, assuming
everything in those
we be just fine. And then things aren't.

This is one of the reasons why I prefer gear with the
least amount of
electronics and software in there and, for example, will
never be caught
with electronic shifters on a bicycle.

True, but then people also have had the metal shift cables
break and
been restricted to a single gear. It appears that
everything is
subject to failure :-)


That is very rare, more so than a derailer ripped away by a
rock.

Main thing is, with batteries the number of available shifts
per charge is finite. I was told that front shifts are
especially hard on the battery and on mountainous
singletrack that's used a lot.

If I had north of $1k burning in my pocket I'd rather spend
that on a Rohloff. That one allows shifts across the
complete gear range at very low or zero speed which is very
useful in MTB riding. To heck with the extra weight.


Old fashioned junk. Try to keep up:

https://bikerumor.com/2019/02/24/rot...pset-at-1785g/

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Plus it's not expensive at all.

From the linked page:

"A complete groupset of shift & brake levers, brake calipers &
rotors, and the new 13-speed rear derailleur sells for $1830 / 1667€
(cranks, chainring & chain excluded). Add in another $415 / 380-400€
extra for the 13-speed cassette (plus the need for a specific hub) or
$365 / 334-350€ for a 12-speed version to work with your existing
Shimano freehub wheels."

A groupset that does NOT include the crankset, the chinrings, the
chain, the cassette or the hubs? Doesn't sound like much of a groupset to me.

$415.00 US JUST for a 13 gear cassette? Bring back the old 14 speed 2 x 7 setup! LOL

Cheers

BUT! It's NEW!

Actually I have 9 speed cassettes on two of my three bikes with either
dual or triple chain rings which gives me either 18 speeds or 27
speeds at a much, much lower price.

The third has a 10 speed setup because I got a pair of 10 speed STI
shifters almost free so cobbled up a 10 speed cassette and to be frank
I really can't tell the difference between 9 and 10 speed.

--
Cheers,
John B.

I too have a couple of bicycles with 9 speed x 3 chainrings. One is a 9
speed Veloce 30 - 42 - 52 set with a Veloce rear derailler and Mirage 9
speed shifters (ratchet left shifter) because the Mirage was the same
inside as the Veloce but a lot less $.

To keep selling components or frames even, manufacturers MUST come up
with NEW stuff and Marketting has to convince bicyclists that the
bicyclist MUST HAVE this latest doo dad.

On one of my bicycles I have a 9 gear 11 - 19 teeth corncob cluster on
it that I made up for fun from some 9 speed cassettes plus one cog from
an 8 speed cassette. It shifts just fine with the friction shifters I'm
using on that bike.

Cheers

It's been a few (more than a few) years but when I had a 7 speed with
2 chain rings I can't remember ever feeling that I needed more.I can
see the possibility of someone who raced wanting very close spaced
gears but for the average Joe I really doubt that they would average
any faster on, say a 2 hour ride, with a seven speed as opposed to a 9
or ten speed.

As far as cassettes go, I did the same thing on my "Bangkok bike".
Bangkok is built on an alluvial plain and there might be one tooth
difference in riding north as apposed to riding south and the only
hills are bridges. On a 20 km ride I might shift once. I built a 13 -
25 cassette as you did out of a bunch of loose cogs. With 50-42 chain
rings I've never wanted for more.

--
Cheers,
John B.

it would not surprise me to see the next great thing in bicycling being
an internally geared bottom bracket. Then you could have the equivalent
of at least three or four chainrings with nothing exposed.

You know, it's be interesting to calculate the gear jumps on that 13
speed cluster and then compare those with the jumps on a 7 or 8 speed cluster.

Cheers

"Internally geared bottom bracket"? You mean, like a Schlumpf drive?

http://www.schlumpfdrive.com/index.php/home-en.html

I wonder what would happen if you coupled that with the 13 rear cogs
system mentioned upthread?

Cheers


Bah. Go big or go home. SRAM makes a three speed IGH that will also accept
a 9 speed cassette. Use that on the back and a three speed front derailleur
with a Schlumpf drive up front. Then add computer control because you'll
never figure out which of the four shift mechanisms you should be using at
any given time.