Coaster Brake Failure

jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, March 1, 2019 at 9:51:53 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Friday, March 1, 2019 at 9:40:38 AM UTC-8, Ralph Barone wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/1/2019 4:12 AM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Fri, 1 Mar 2019 00:29:21 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Thursday, February 28, 2019 at 9:31:16 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:

Old fashioned junk. Try to keep up:

https://bikerumor.com/2019/02/24/rot...pset-at-1785g/

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Plus it's not expensive at all.

From the linked page:

"A complete groupset of shift & brake levers, brake calipers & rotors,
and the new 13-speed rear derailleur sells for $1830 / 1667€ (cranks,
chainring & chain excluded). Add in another $415 / 380-400€ extra for
the 13-speed cassette (plus the need for a specific hub) or $365 /
334-350€ for a 12-speed version to work with your existing Shimano freehub wheels."

A groupset that does NOT include the crankset, the chinrings, the
chain, the cassette or the hubs? Doesn't sound like much of a groupset to me.

$415.00 US JUST for a 13 gear cassette? Bring back the old 14 speed 2 x 7 setup! LOL

Cheers

BUT! It's NEW!

Actually I have 9 speed cassettes on two of my three bikes with either
dual or triple chain rings which gives me either 18 speeds or 27
speeds at a much, much lower price.

The third has a 10 speed setup because I got a pair of 10 speed STI
shifters almost free so cobbled up a 10 speed cassette and to be frank
I really can't tell the difference between 9 and 10 speed.

I've only ridden a modern 1x gear train one time, borrowing a friend's
bike. It worked fine, but nothing so amazing as to want me to replace
what I have on any bike.

Please correct me if necessary, but as I understand it, the benefits are
1) you don't have to think about shifting the front, because the front
doesn't shift; and 2) the shifts are a little bit better because the
chain slack doesn't change from big ring to small ring, so the
derailleur is in a more constant position.

Beyond those two, there might be microscopic benefits regarding
aerodynamics, weight, and maybe feng shui...

But I think this all shows how deep the bicycling world has sunk into
diminishing returns. Those who are entranced by the slightly better
shifting seem like pianists who say "I play only on Steinways, their
action is so much better than Baldwins."

Sheesh! It's a bicycle! You're shifting gears, not playing Bach.


On a rear derailleur, the shifting occurs on the untensioned part of the
chain, while the front derailleur has to shift the tensioned part of the
chain. Therefore front shifting will always be worse than rear shifting.
That's what a 1x system aims for. However, the front shifting on my 3x9
system, while worse than the rear, is still "good enough", and in return I
get a wide hearing range.

The indexing of the front derailleur is what is all screwed up. A
hydraulic front shifter could be arranged to be a lot better and gain
alignments as accurate as the old friction shifting.

Di2 takes care of that by automatically trimming the FD. FD shifting is
one of the big selling points of Di2. What I don't like is the lock-out
of the last two cogs while on the small ring which, AFAIK, cannot be
overridden by the consumer. Those are usable cogs on my cable shift
bikes. The FD also will not shift down if you are in the last two cogs in the big ring.

-- Jay Beattie.


I've always thought that it would not be difficult to build a mechanism
that clamps onto the rear derailleur shift cable and uses the rear gear
selection to trim the front derailleur. You don't need a CPU to pull off
that trick.

On 3/1/2019 2:38 PM, Ralph Barone wrote:
jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, March 1, 2019 at 9:51:53 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Friday, March 1, 2019 at 9:40:38 AM UTC-8, Ralph Barone wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/1/2019 4:12 AM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Fri, 1 Mar 2019 00:29:21 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Thursday, February 28, 2019 at 9:31:16 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:

Old fashioned junk. Try to keep up:

https://bikerumor.com/2019/02/24/rot...pset-at-1785g/

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Plus it's not expensive at all.

From the linked page:

"A complete groupset of shift & brake levers, brake calipers & rotors,
and the new 13-speed rear derailleur sells for $1830 / 1667€ (cranks,
chainring & chain excluded). Add in another $415 / 380-400€ extra for
the 13-speed cassette (plus the need for a specific hub) or $365 /
334-350€ for a 12-speed version to work with your existing Shimano freehub wheels."

A groupset that does NOT include the crankset, the chinrings, the
chain, the cassette or the hubs? Doesn't sound like much of a groupset to me.

$415.00 US JUST for a 13 gear cassette? Bring back the old 14 speed 2 x 7 setup! LOL

Cheers

BUT! It's NEW!

Actually I have 9 speed cassettes on two of my three bikes with either
dual or triple chain rings which gives me either 18 speeds or 27
speeds at a much, much lower price.

The third has a 10 speed setup because I got a pair of 10 speed STI
shifters almost free so cobbled up a 10 speed cassette and to be frank
I really can't tell the difference between 9 and 10 speed.

I've only ridden a modern 1x gear train one time, borrowing a friend's
bike. It worked fine, but nothing so amazing as to want me to replace
what I have on any bike.

Please correct me if necessary, but as I understand it, the benefits are
1) you don't have to think about shifting the front, because the front
doesn't shift; and 2) the shifts are a little bit better because the
chain slack doesn't change from big ring to small ring, so the
derailleur is in a more constant position.

Beyond those two, there might be microscopic benefits regarding
aerodynamics, weight, and maybe feng shui...

But I think this all shows how deep the bicycling world has sunk into
diminishing returns. Those who are entranced by the slightly better
shifting seem like pianists who say "I play only on Steinways, their
action is so much better than Baldwins."

Sheesh! It's a bicycle! You're shifting gears, not playing Bach.


On a rear derailleur, the shifting occurs on the untensioned part of the
chain, while the front derailleur has to shift the tensioned part of the
chain. Therefore front shifting will always be worse than rear shifting.
That's what a 1x system aims for. However, the front shifting on my 3x9
system, while worse than the rear, is still "good enough", and in return I
get a wide hearing range.

The indexing of the front derailleur is what is all screwed up. A
hydraulic front shifter could be arranged to be a lot better and gain
alignments as accurate as the old friction shifting.

Di2 takes care of that by automatically trimming the FD. FD shifting is
one of the big selling points of Di2. What I don't like is the lock-out
of the last two cogs while on the small ring which, AFAIK, cannot be
overridden by the consumer. Those are usable cogs on my cable shift
bikes. The FD also will not shift down if you are in the last two cogs in the big ring.


I've always thought that it would not be difficult to build a mechanism
that clamps onto the rear derailleur shift cable and uses the rear gear
selection to trim the front derailleur. You don't need a CPU to pull off
that trick.

http://www.velobase.com/ViewComponen...3-2787beac2bb0



--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Friday, March 1, 2019 at 10:10:32 AM UTC-8, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, March 1, 2019 at 9:51:53 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Friday, March 1, 2019 at 9:40:38 AM UTC-8, Ralph Barone wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/1/2019 4:12 AM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Fri, 1 Mar 2019 00:29:21 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Thursday, February 28, 2019 at 9:31:16 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:

Old fashioned junk. Try to keep up:

https://bikerumor.com/2019/02/24/rot...pset-at-1785g/

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Plus it's not expensive at all.

From the linked page:

"A complete groupset of shift & brake levers, brake calipers & rotors,
and the new 13-speed rear derailleur sells for $1830 / 1667€ (cranks,
chainring & chain excluded). Add in another $415 / 380-400€ extra for
the 13-speed cassette (plus the need for a specific hub) or $365 /
334-350€ for a 12-speed version to work with your existing Shimano freehub wheels."

A groupset that does NOT include the crankset, the chinrings, the
chain, the cassette or the hubs? Doesn't sound like much of a groupset to me.

$415.00 US JUST for a 13 gear cassette? Bring back the old 14 speed 2 x 7 setup! LOL

Cheers

BUT! It's NEW!

Actually I have 9 speed cassettes on two of my three bikes with either
dual or triple chain rings which gives me either 18 speeds or 27
speeds at a much, much lower price.

The third has a 10 speed setup because I got a pair of 10 speed STI
shifters almost free so cobbled up a 10 speed cassette and to be frank
I really can't tell the difference between 9 and 10 speed.

I've only ridden a modern 1x gear train one time, borrowing a friend's
bike. It worked fine, but nothing so amazing as to want me to replace
what I have on any bike.

Please correct me if necessary, but as I understand it, the benefits are
1) you don't have to think about shifting the front, because the front
doesn't shift; and 2) the shifts are a little bit better because the
chain slack doesn't change from big ring to small ring, so the
derailleur is in a more constant position.

Beyond those two, there might be microscopic benefits regarding
aerodynamics, weight, and maybe feng shui...

But I think this all shows how deep the bicycling world has sunk into
diminishing returns. Those who are entranced by the slightly better
shifting seem like pianists who say "I play only on Steinways, their
action is so much better than Baldwins."

Sheesh! It's a bicycle! You're shifting gears, not playing Bach.


On a rear derailleur, the shifting occurs on the untensioned part of the
chain, while the front derailleur has to shift the tensioned part of the
chain. Therefore front shifting will always be worse than rear shifting.
That's what a 1x system aims for. However, the front shifting on my 3x9
system, while worse than the rear, is still "good enough", and in return I
get a wide hearing range.

The indexing of the front derailleur is what is all screwed up. A hydraulic front shifter could be arranged to be a lot better and gain alignments as accurate as the old friction shifting.

Di2 takes care of that by automatically trimming the FD. FD shifting is one of the big selling points of Di2. What I don't like is the lock-out of the last two cogs while on the small ring which, AFAIK, cannot be overridden by the consumer. Those are usable cogs on my cable shift bikes. The FD also will not shift down if you are in the last two cogs in the big ring.

-- Jay Beattie.

You can use them but they aren't practical. I assume that you're using a short throw rear derailleur and on my Colnago I'm running an 11-28 which is the limit of the short arm.

Using the small cogs in the small ring can beat the hell out of your chainstay with a slack chain. In the big ring you'd be somewhere around the middle of the cogset.

On the other end you can burn the idler pulleys out against the cogs. And you have to run a chain that is too long in order to be able to cover that far a ratio change.

It is nice not having to always keep track of what ends of the rings and cogs you are but you don't gain anything by it. After all - you hit the limits either way and you don't miss any ratios. The only place it turns out to be handy is going hard over rollers so that you don't have to shift down into the small ring. But if you're using Ultegra or DuraAce you have almost perfect shifting anyway so you don't have to worry about that.

With my *^T)(^T Campy I always have some sort of shifting troubles. If I wasn't so used to Campy there's no way I would not have Ultegra at least.

On Friday, March 1, 2019 at 10:10:48 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 3/1/2019 11:49 AM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Friday, March 1, 2019 at 11:27:17 AM UTC-5, Ralph Barone wrote:
Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Friday, March 1, 2019 at 6:19:03 AM UTC-5, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Fri, 1 Mar 2019 02:17:00 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Friday, March 1, 2019 at 4:12:51 AM UTC-5, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Fri, 1 Mar 2019 00:29:21 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Thursday, February 28, 2019 at 9:31:16 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
On 2/28/2019 6:49 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-02-27 14:47, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Wed, 27 Feb 2019 08:09:04 -0800, Joerg

wrote:

On 2019-02-25 11:42, Tosspot wrote:
On 2/25/19 5:06 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-02-25 07:29, Ralph Barone wrote:
AMuzi wrote:
https://www.bicycleretailer.com/reca...nd-aftermarket





Mysterious. How the hell did that happen in a design
100+ years
old?

They must have improved it.


In German there is the inofficial word
"verschlimmbessern". It sums
up the action of "Here we have a working design but
let's optimize it
anyhow" and then it all goes to pots. A very common
scenario in
software design.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gp_D8r-2hwk


Sometimes those things happen for reasons Tom mentioned.
People using
library modules that others have written, assuming
everything in those
we be just fine. And then things aren't.

This is one of the reasons why I prefer gear with the
least amount of
electronics and software in there and, for example, will
never be caught
with electronic shifters on a bicycle.

True, but then people also have had the metal shift cables
break and
been restricted to a single gear. It appears that
everything is
subject to failure :-)


That is very rare, more so than a derailer ripped away by a
rock.

Main thing is, with batteries the number of available shifts
per charge is finite. I was told that front shifts are
especially hard on the battery and on mountainous
singletrack that's used a lot.

If I had north of $1k burning in my pocket I'd rather spend
that on a Rohloff. That one allows shifts across the
complete gear range at very low or zero speed which is very
useful in MTB riding. To heck with the extra weight.


Old fashioned junk. Try to keep up:

https://bikerumor.com/2019/02/24/rot...pset-at-1785g/

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Plus it's not expensive at all.

From the linked page:

"A complete groupset of shift & brake levers, brake calipers &
rotors, and the new 13-speed rear derailleur sells for $1830 / 1667€
(cranks, chainring & chain excluded). Add in another $415 / 380-400€
extra for the 13-speed cassette (plus the need for a specific hub) or
$365 / 334-350€ for a 12-speed version to work with your existing
Shimano freehub wheels."

A groupset that does NOT include the crankset, the chinrings, the
chain, the cassette or the hubs? Doesn't sound like much of a groupset to me.

$415.00 US JUST for a 13 gear cassette? Bring back the old 14 speed 2 x 7 setup! LOL

Cheers

BUT! It's NEW!

Actually I have 9 speed cassettes on two of my three bikes with either
dual or triple chain rings which gives me either 18 speeds or 27
speeds at a much, much lower price.

The third has a 10 speed setup because I got a pair of 10 speed STI
shifters almost free so cobbled up a 10 speed cassette and to be frank
I really can't tell the difference between 9 and 10 speed.

--
Cheers,
John B.

I too have a couple of bicycles with 9 speed x 3 chainrings. One is a 9
speed Veloce 30 - 42 - 52 set with a Veloce rear derailler and Mirage 9
speed shifters (ratchet left shifter) because the Mirage was the same
inside as the Veloce but a lot less $.

To keep selling components or frames even, manufacturers MUST come up
with NEW stuff and Marketting has to convince bicyclists that the
bicyclist MUST HAVE this latest doo dad.

On one of my bicycles I have a 9 gear 11 - 19 teeth corncob cluster on
it that I made up for fun from some 9 speed cassettes plus one cog from
an 8 speed cassette. It shifts just fine with the friction shifters I'm
using on that bike.

Cheers

It's been a few (more than a few) years but when I had a 7 speed with
2 chain rings I can't remember ever feeling that I needed more.I can
see the possibility of someone who raced wanting very close spaced
gears but for the average Joe I really doubt that they would average
any faster on, say a 2 hour ride, with a seven speed as opposed to a 9
or ten speed.

As far as cassettes go, I did the same thing on my "Bangkok bike".
Bangkok is built on an alluvial plain and there might be one tooth
difference in riding north as apposed to riding south and the only
hills are bridges. On a 20 km ride I might shift once. I built a 13 -
25 cassette as you did out of a bunch of loose cogs. With 50-42 chain
rings I've never wanted for more.

--
Cheers,
John B.

it would not surprise me to see the next great thing in bicycling being
an internally geared bottom bracket. Then you could have the equivalent
of at least three or four chainrings with nothing exposed.

You know, it's be interesting to calculate the gear jumps on that 13
speed cluster and then compare those with the jumps on a 7 or 8 speed cluster.

Cheers

"Internally geared bottom bracket"? You mean, like a Schlumpf drive?

http://www.schlumpfdrive.com/index.php/home-en.html

I wonder what would happen if you coupled that with the 13 rear cogs system mentioned upthread?

Cheers


I would still prefer my fixie for most rides. YMMV.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

OK, now we know you ride on the flats and have a weight problem...…..

On Friday, March 1, 2019 at 3:38:08 PM UTC-5, Ralph Barone wrote:
Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Friday, March 1, 2019 at 11:27:17 AM UTC-5, Ralph Barone wrote:
Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Friday, March 1, 2019 at 6:19:03 AM UTC-5, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Fri, 1 Mar 2019 02:17:00 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Friday, March 1, 2019 at 4:12:51 AM UTC-5, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Fri, 1 Mar 2019 00:29:21 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Thursday, February 28, 2019 at 9:31:16 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
On 2/28/2019 6:49 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-02-27 14:47, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Wed, 27 Feb 2019 08:09:04 -0800, Joerg

wrote:

On 2019-02-25 11:42, Tosspot wrote:
On 2/25/19 5:06 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-02-25 07:29, Ralph Barone wrote:
AMuzi wrote:
https://www.bicycleretailer.com/reca...nd-aftermarket





Mysterious. How the hell did that happen in a design
100+ years
old?

They must have improved it.


In German there is the inofficial word
"verschlimmbessern". It sums
up the action of "Here we have a working design but
let's optimize it
anyhow" and then it all goes to pots. A very common
scenario in
software design.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gp_D8r-2hwk


Sometimes those things happen for reasons Tom mentioned.
People using
library modules that others have written, assuming
everything in those
we be just fine. And then things aren't.

This is one of the reasons why I prefer gear with the
least amount of
electronics and software in there and, for example, will
never be caught
with electronic shifters on a bicycle.

True, but then people also have had the metal shift cables
break and
been restricted to a single gear. It appears that
everything is
subject to failure :-)


That is very rare, more so than a derailer ripped away by a
rock.

Main thing is, with batteries the number of available shifts
per charge is finite. I was told that front shifts are
especially hard on the battery and on mountainous
singletrack that's used a lot.

If I had north of $1k burning in my pocket I'd rather spend
that on a Rohloff. That one allows shifts across the
complete gear range at very low or zero speed which is very
useful in MTB riding. To heck with the extra weight.


Old fashioned junk. Try to keep up:

https://bikerumor.com/2019/02/24/rot...pset-at-1785g/

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Plus it's not expensive at all.

From the linked page:

"A complete groupset of shift & brake levers, brake calipers &
rotors, and the new 13-speed rear derailleur sells for $1830 / 1667€
(cranks, chainring & chain excluded). Add in another $415 / 380-400€
extra for the 13-speed cassette (plus the need for a specific hub) or
$365 / 334-350€ for a 12-speed version to work with your existing
Shimano freehub wheels."

A groupset that does NOT include the crankset, the chinrings, the
chain, the cassette or the hubs? Doesn't sound like much of a groupset to me.

$415.00 US JUST for a 13 gear cassette? Bring back the old 14 speed 2 x 7 setup! LOL

Cheers

BUT! It's NEW!

Actually I have 9 speed cassettes on two of my three bikes with either
dual or triple chain rings which gives me either 18 speeds or 27
speeds at a much, much lower price.

The third has a 10 speed setup because I got a pair of 10 speed STI
shifters almost free so cobbled up a 10 speed cassette and to be frank
I really can't tell the difference between 9 and 10 speed.

--
Cheers,
John B.

I too have a couple of bicycles with 9 speed x 3 chainrings. One is a 9
speed Veloce 30 - 42 - 52 set with a Veloce rear derailler and Mirage 9
speed shifters (ratchet left shifter) because the Mirage was the same
inside as the Veloce but a lot less $.

To keep selling components or frames even, manufacturers MUST come up
with NEW stuff and Marketting has to convince bicyclists that the
bicyclist MUST HAVE this latest doo dad.

On one of my bicycles I have a 9 gear 11 - 19 teeth corncob cluster on
it that I made up for fun from some 9 speed cassettes plus one cog from
an 8 speed cassette. It shifts just fine with the friction shifters I'm
using on that bike.

Cheers

It's been a few (more than a few) years but when I had a 7 speed with
2 chain rings I can't remember ever feeling that I needed more.I can
see the possibility of someone who raced wanting very close spaced
gears but for the average Joe I really doubt that they would average
any faster on, say a 2 hour ride, with a seven speed as opposed to a 9
or ten speed.

As far as cassettes go, I did the same thing on my "Bangkok bike".
Bangkok is built on an alluvial plain and there might be one tooth
difference in riding north as apposed to riding south and the only
hills are bridges. On a 20 km ride I might shift once. I built a 13 -
25 cassette as you did out of a bunch of loose cogs. With 50-42 chain
rings I've never wanted for more.

--
Cheers,
John B.

it would not surprise me to see the next great thing in bicycling being
an internally geared bottom bracket. Then you could have the equivalent
of at least three or four chainrings with nothing exposed.

You know, it's be interesting to calculate the gear jumps on that 13
speed cluster and then compare those with the jumps on a 7 or 8 speed cluster.

Cheers

"Internally geared bottom bracket"? You mean, like a Schlumpf drive?

http://www.schlumpfdrive.com/index.php/home-en.html

I wonder what would happen if you coupled that with the 13 rear cogs
system mentioned upthread?

Cheers


Bah. Go big or go home. SRAM makes a three speed IGH that will also accept
a 9 speed cassette. Use that on the back and a three speed front derailleur
with a Schlumpf drive up front. Then add computer control because you'll
never figure out which of the four shift mechanisms you should be using at
any given time.

Shades of the Late Great Sheldon Brown!

Cheers

On Friday, March 1, 2019 at 3:44:13 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
On 3/1/2019 2:38 PM, Ralph Barone wrote:
jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, March 1, 2019 at 9:51:53 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Friday, March 1, 2019 at 9:40:38 AM UTC-8, Ralph Barone wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/1/2019 4:12 AM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Fri, 1 Mar 2019 00:29:21 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Thursday, February 28, 2019 at 9:31:16 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:

Old fashioned junk. Try to keep up:

https://bikerumor.com/2019/02/24/rot...pset-at-1785g/

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Plus it's not expensive at all.

From the linked page:

"A complete groupset of shift & brake levers, brake calipers & rotors,
and the new 13-speed rear derailleur sells for $1830 / 1667€ (cranks,
chainring & chain excluded). Add in another $415 / 380-400€ extra for
the 13-speed cassette (plus the need for a specific hub) or $365 /
334-350€ for a 12-speed version to work with your existing Shimano freehub wheels."

A groupset that does NOT include the crankset, the chinrings, the
chain, the cassette or the hubs? Doesn't sound like much of a groupset to me.

$415.00 US JUST for a 13 gear cassette? Bring back the old 14 speed 2 x 7 setup! LOL

Cheers

BUT! It's NEW!

Actually I have 9 speed cassettes on two of my three bikes with either
dual or triple chain rings which gives me either 18 speeds or 27
speeds at a much, much lower price.

The third has a 10 speed setup because I got a pair of 10 speed STI
shifters almost free so cobbled up a 10 speed cassette and to be frank
I really can't tell the difference between 9 and 10 speed.

I've only ridden a modern 1x gear train one time, borrowing a friend's
bike. It worked fine, but nothing so amazing as to want me to replace
what I have on any bike.

Please correct me if necessary, but as I understand it, the benefits are
1) you don't have to think about shifting the front, because the front
doesn't shift; and 2) the shifts are a little bit better because the
chain slack doesn't change from big ring to small ring, so the
derailleur is in a more constant position.

Beyond those two, there might be microscopic benefits regarding
aerodynamics, weight, and maybe feng shui...

But I think this all shows how deep the bicycling world has sunk into
diminishing returns. Those who are entranced by the slightly better
shifting seem like pianists who say "I play only on Steinways, their
action is so much better than Baldwins."

Sheesh! It's a bicycle! You're shifting gears, not playing Bach.


On a rear derailleur, the shifting occurs on the untensioned part of the
chain, while the front derailleur has to shift the tensioned part of the
chain. Therefore front shifting will always be worse than rear shifting.
That's what a 1x system aims for. However, the front shifting on my 3x9
system, while worse than the rear, is still "good enough", and in return I
get a wide hearing range.

The indexing of the front derailleur is what is all screwed up. A
hydraulic front shifter could be arranged to be a lot better and gain
alignments as accurate as the old friction shifting.

Di2 takes care of that by automatically trimming the FD. FD shifting is
one of the big selling points of Di2. What I don't like is the lock-out
of the last two cogs while on the small ring which, AFAIK, cannot be
overridden by the consumer. Those are usable cogs on my cable shift
bikes. The FD also will not shift down if you are in the last two cogs in the big ring.


I've always thought that it would not be difficult to build a mechanism
that clamps onto the rear derailleur shift cable and uses the rear gear
selection to trim the front derailleur. You don't need a CPU to pull off
that trick.

http://www.velobase.com/ViewComponen...3-2787beac2bb0



--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Good old Suntour shifters! I have a pair of those on one of my bikes and they still work well.

Cheers

On 3/1/2019 3:15 PM, wrote:
On Friday, March 1, 2019 at 10:10:48 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 3/1/2019 11:49 AM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Friday, March 1, 2019 at 11:27:17 AM UTC-5, Ralph Barone wrote:
Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Friday, March 1, 2019 at 6:19:03 AM UTC-5, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Fri, 1 Mar 2019 02:17:00 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Friday, March 1, 2019 at 4:12:51 AM UTC-5, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Fri, 1 Mar 2019 00:29:21 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Thursday, February 28, 2019 at 9:31:16 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
On 2/28/2019 6:49 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-02-27 14:47, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Wed, 27 Feb 2019 08:09:04 -0800, Joerg

wrote:

On 2019-02-25 11:42, Tosspot wrote:
On 2/25/19 5:06 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-02-25 07:29, Ralph Barone wrote:
AMuzi wrote:
https://www.bicycleretailer.com/reca...nd-aftermarket





Mysterious. How the hell did that happen in a design
100+ years
old?

They must have improved it.


In German there is the inofficial word
"verschlimmbessern". It sums
up the action of "Here we have a working design but
let's optimize it
anyhow" and then it all goes to pots. A very common
scenario in
software design.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gp_D8r-2hwk


Sometimes those things happen for reasons Tom mentioned.
People using
library modules that others have written, assuming
everything in those
we be just fine. And then things aren't.

This is one of the reasons why I prefer gear with the
least amount of
electronics and software in there and, for example, will
never be caught
with electronic shifters on a bicycle.

True, but then people also have had the metal shift cables
break and
been restricted to a single gear. It appears that
everything is
subject to failure :-)


That is very rare, more so than a derailer ripped away by a
rock.

Main thing is, with batteries the number of available shifts
per charge is finite. I was told that front shifts are
especially hard on the battery and on mountainous
singletrack that's used a lot.

If I had north of $1k burning in my pocket I'd rather spend
that on a Rohloff. That one allows shifts across the
complete gear range at very low or zero speed which is very
useful in MTB riding. To heck with the extra weight.


Old fashioned junk. Try to keep up:

https://bikerumor.com/2019/02/24/rot...pset-at-1785g/

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Plus it's not expensive at all.

From the linked page:

"A complete groupset of shift & brake levers, brake calipers &
rotors, and the new 13-speed rear derailleur sells for $1830 / 1667€
(cranks, chainring & chain excluded). Add in another $415 / 380-400€
extra for the 13-speed cassette (plus the need for a specific hub) or
$365 / 334-350€ for a 12-speed version to work with your existing
Shimano freehub wheels."

A groupset that does NOT include the crankset, the chinrings, the
chain, the cassette or the hubs? Doesn't sound like much of a groupset to me.

$415.00 US JUST for a 13 gear cassette? Bring back the old 14 speed 2 x 7 setup! LOL

Cheers

BUT! It's NEW!

Actually I have 9 speed cassettes on two of my three bikes with either
dual or triple chain rings which gives me either 18 speeds or 27
speeds at a much, much lower price.

The third has a 10 speed setup because I got a pair of 10 speed STI
shifters almost free so cobbled up a 10 speed cassette and to be frank
I really can't tell the difference between 9 and 10 speed.

--
Cheers,
John B.

I too have a couple of bicycles with 9 speed x 3 chainrings. One is a 9
speed Veloce 30 - 42 - 52 set with a Veloce rear derailler and Mirage 9
speed shifters (ratchet left shifter) because the Mirage was the same
inside as the Veloce but a lot less $.

To keep selling components or frames even, manufacturers MUST come up
with NEW stuff and Marketting has to convince bicyclists that the
bicyclist MUST HAVE this latest doo dad.

On one of my bicycles I have a 9 gear 11 - 19 teeth corncob cluster on
it that I made up for fun from some 9 speed cassettes plus one cog from
an 8 speed cassette. It shifts just fine with the friction shifters I'm
using on that bike.

Cheers

It's been a few (more than a few) years but when I had a 7 speed with
2 chain rings I can't remember ever feeling that I needed more.I can
see the possibility of someone who raced wanting very close spaced
gears but for the average Joe I really doubt that they would average
any faster on, say a 2 hour ride, with a seven speed as opposed to a 9
or ten speed.

As far as cassettes go, I did the same thing on my "Bangkok bike".
Bangkok is built on an alluvial plain and there might be one tooth
difference in riding north as apposed to riding south and the only
hills are bridges. On a 20 km ride I might shift once. I built a 13 -
25 cassette as you did out of a bunch of loose cogs. With 50-42 chain
rings I've never wanted for more.

--
Cheers,
John B.

it would not surprise me to see the next great thing in bicycling being
an internally geared bottom bracket. Then you could have the equivalent
of at least three or four chainrings with nothing exposed.

You know, it's be interesting to calculate the gear jumps on that 13
speed cluster and then compare those with the jumps on a 7 or 8 speed cluster.

Cheers

"Internally geared bottom bracket"? You mean, like a Schlumpf drive?

http://www.schlumpfdrive.com/index.php/home-en.html

I wonder what would happen if you coupled that with the 13 rear cogs system mentioned upthread?

Cheers


I would still prefer my fixie for most rides. YMMV.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

OK, now we know you ride on the flats and have a weight problem...….


No mountains here and I'm 5'10", 150~155lbs.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Fri, 01 Mar 2019 12:10:42 -0600, AMuzi wrote:

On 3/1/2019 11:49 AM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Friday, March 1, 2019 at 11:27:17 AM UTC-5, Ralph Barone wrote:
Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Friday, March 1, 2019 at 6:19:03 AM UTC-5, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Fri, 1 Mar 2019 02:17:00 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Friday, March 1, 2019 at 4:12:51 AM UTC-5, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Fri, 1 Mar 2019 00:29:21 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Thursday, February 28, 2019 at 9:31:16 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
On 2/28/2019 6:49 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-02-27 14:47, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Wed, 27 Feb 2019 08:09:04 -0800, Joerg

wrote:

On 2019-02-25 11:42, Tosspot wrote:
On 2/25/19 5:06 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-02-25 07:29, Ralph Barone wrote:
AMuzi wrote:
https://www.bicycleretailer.com/reca...nd-aftermarket





Mysterious. How the hell did that happen in a design
100+ years
old?

They must have improved it.


In German there is the inofficial word
"verschlimmbessern". It sums
up the action of "Here we have a working design but
let's optimize it
anyhow" and then it all goes to pots. A very common
scenario in
software design.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gp_D8r-2hwk


Sometimes those things happen for reasons Tom mentioned.
People using
library modules that others have written, assuming
everything in those
we be just fine. And then things aren't.

This is one of the reasons why I prefer gear with the
least amount of
electronics and software in there and, for example, will
never be caught
with electronic shifters on a bicycle.

True, but then people also have had the metal shift cables
break and
been restricted to a single gear. It appears that
everything is
subject to failure :-)


That is very rare, more so than a derailer ripped away by a
rock.

Main thing is, with batteries the number of available shifts
per charge is finite. I was told that front shifts are
especially hard on the battery and on mountainous
singletrack that's used a lot.

If I had north of $1k burning in my pocket I'd rather spend
that on a Rohloff. That one allows shifts across the
complete gear range at very low or zero speed which is very
useful in MTB riding. To heck with the extra weight.


Old fashioned junk. Try to keep up:

https://bikerumor.com/2019/02/24/rot...pset-at-1785g/

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Plus it's not expensive at all.

From the linked page:

"A complete groupset of shift & brake levers, brake calipers &
rotors, and the new 13-speed rear derailleur sells for $1830 / 1667€
(cranks, chainring & chain excluded). Add in another $415 / 380-400€
extra for the 13-speed cassette (plus the need for a specific hub) or
$365 / 334-350€ for a 12-speed version to work with your existing
Shimano freehub wheels."

A groupset that does NOT include the crankset, the chinrings, the
chain, the cassette or the hubs? Doesn't sound like much of a groupset to me.

$415.00 US JUST for a 13 gear cassette? Bring back the old 14 speed 2 x 7 setup! LOL

Cheers

BUT! It's NEW!

Actually I have 9 speed cassettes on two of my three bikes with either
dual or triple chain rings which gives me either 18 speeds or 27
speeds at a much, much lower price.

The third has a 10 speed setup because I got a pair of 10 speed STI
shifters almost free so cobbled up a 10 speed cassette and to be frank
I really can't tell the difference between 9 and 10 speed.

--
Cheers,
John B.

I too have a couple of bicycles with 9 speed x 3 chainrings. One is a 9
speed Veloce 30 - 42 - 52 set with a Veloce rear derailler and Mirage 9
speed shifters (ratchet left shifter) because the Mirage was the same
inside as the Veloce but a lot less $.

To keep selling components or frames even, manufacturers MUST come up
with NEW stuff and Marketting has to convince bicyclists that the
bicyclist MUST HAVE this latest doo dad.

On one of my bicycles I have a 9 gear 11 - 19 teeth corncob cluster on
it that I made up for fun from some 9 speed cassettes plus one cog from
an 8 speed cassette. It shifts just fine with the friction shifters I'm
using on that bike.

Cheers

It's been a few (more than a few) years but when I had a 7 speed with
2 chain rings I can't remember ever feeling that I needed more.I can
see the possibility of someone who raced wanting very close spaced
gears but for the average Joe I really doubt that they would average
any faster on, say a 2 hour ride, with a seven speed as opposed to a 9
or ten speed.

As far as cassettes go, I did the same thing on my "Bangkok bike".
Bangkok is built on an alluvial plain and there might be one tooth
difference in riding north as apposed to riding south and the only
hills are bridges. On a 20 km ride I might shift once. I built a 13 -
25 cassette as you did out of a bunch of loose cogs. With 50-42 chain
rings I've never wanted for more.

--
Cheers,
John B.

it would not surprise me to see the next great thing in bicycling being
an internally geared bottom bracket. Then you could have the equivalent
of at least three or four chainrings with nothing exposed.

You know, it's be interesting to calculate the gear jumps on that 13
speed cluster and then compare those with the jumps on a 7 or 8 speed cluster.

Cheers

"Internally geared bottom bracket"? You mean, like a Schlumpf drive?

http://www.schlumpfdrive.com/index.php/home-en.html

I wonder what would happen if you coupled that with the 13 rear cogs system mentioned upthread?

Cheers


I would still prefer my fixie for most rides. YMMV.

You should live where I live. It is almost exactly 1 kilometer down
hill to get to the main road of the village and, of course, one
kilometer back up the hill to go home. And it is steep enough to be on
the small chain ring and the large cassette cog most of the way up.

--
Cheers,
John B.

On 3/1/2019 3:44 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 3/1/2019 2:38 PM, Ralph Barone wrote:
jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, March 1, 2019 at 9:51:53 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Friday, March 1, 2019 at 9:40:38 AM UTC-8, Ralph Barone wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/1/2019 4:12 AM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Fri, 1 Mar 2019 00:29:21 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Thursday, February 28, 2019 at 9:31:16 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:

Old fashioned junk. Try to keep up:

https://bikerumor.com/2019/02/24/rot...pset-at-1785g/


--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Plus it's not expensive at all.

*From the linked page:

"A complete groupset of shift & brake levers, brake calipers &
rotors,
and the new 13-speed rear derailleur sells for $1830 / 1667€
(cranks,
chainring & chain excluded). Add in another $415 / 380-400€
extra for
the 13-speed cassette (plus the need for a specific hub) or $365 /
334-350€ for a 12-speed version to work with your existing
Shimano freehub wheels."

A groupset that does NOT include the crankset, the chinrings, the
chain, the cassette or the hubs? Doesn't sound like much of a
groupset to me.

$415.00 US JUST for a 13 gear cassette? Bring back the old 14
speed 2 x 7 setup! LOL

Cheers

BUT! It's NEW!

Actually I have 9 speed cassettes on two of my three bikes with
either
dual or triple chain rings which gives me either 18 speeds or 27
speeds at a much, much lower price.

The third has a 10 speed setup because I got a pair of 10 speed STI
shifters almost free so cobbled up a 10 speed cassette and to be
frank
I really can't tell the difference between 9 and 10 speed.

I've only ridden a modern 1x gear train one time, borrowing a
friend's
bike. It worked fine, but nothing so amazing as to want me to replace
what I have on any bike.

Please correct me if necessary, but as I understand it, the
benefits are
1) you don't have to think about shifting the front, because the
front
doesn't shift; and 2) the shifts are a little bit better because the
chain slack doesn't change from big ring to small ring, so the
derailleur is in a more constant position.

Beyond those two, there might be microscopic benefits regarding
aerodynamics, weight, and maybe feng shui...

But I think this all shows how deep the bicycling world has sunk into
diminishing returns. Those who are entranced by the slightly better
shifting seem like pianists who say "I play only on Steinways, their
action is so much better than Baldwins."

Sheesh! It's a bicycle! You're shifting gears, not playing Bach.


On a rear derailleur, the shifting occurs on the untensioned part
of the
chain, while the front derailleur has to shift the tensioned part
of the
chain. Therefore front shifting will always be worse than rear
shifting.
That's what a 1x system aims for. However, the front shifting on my
3x9
system, while worse than the rear, is still "good enough", and in
return I
get a wide hearing range.

The indexing of the front derailleur is what is all screwed up. A
hydraulic front shifter could be arranged to be a lot better and gain
alignments as accurate as the old friction shifting.

Di2 takes care of that by automatically trimming the FD.* FD shifting is
one of the big selling points of Di2. What I don't like is the lock-out
of the last two cogs while on the small ring which, AFAIK, cannot be
overridden by the consumer. Those are usable cogs on my cable shift
bikes.* The FD also will not shift down if you are in the last two
cogs in the big ring.


I've always thought that it would not be difficult to build a mechanism
that clamps onto the rear derailleur shift cable and uses the rear gear
selection to trim the front derailleur. You don't need a CPU to pull off
that trick.

http://www.velobase.com/ViewComponen...3-2787beac2bb0

Right! Back in the days when both levers were near each other, that did
the trick well.

These days it's mandatory that the front and rear levers be on opposite
sides of the handlebar, so maybe a cable operated gizmo like Ralph
mentions could do the same trick. The rear cable passes really close to
the front derailleur anyway.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Fri, 01 Mar 2019 16:33:12 -0600, AMuzi wrote:

On 3/1/2019 3:15 PM, wrote:
On Friday, March 1, 2019 at 10:10:48 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 3/1/2019 11:49 AM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Friday, March 1, 2019 at 11:27:17 AM UTC-5, Ralph Barone wrote:
Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Friday, March 1, 2019 at 6:19:03 AM UTC-5, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Fri, 1 Mar 2019 02:17:00 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Friday, March 1, 2019 at 4:12:51 AM UTC-5, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Fri, 1 Mar 2019 00:29:21 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Thursday, February 28, 2019 at 9:31:16 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
On 2/28/2019 6:49 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-02-27 14:47, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Wed, 27 Feb 2019 08:09:04 -0800, Joerg

wrote:

On 2019-02-25 11:42, Tosspot wrote:
On 2/25/19 5:06 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-02-25 07:29, Ralph Barone wrote:
AMuzi wrote:
https://www.bicycleretailer.com/reca...nd-aftermarket





Mysterious. How the hell did that happen in a design
100+ years
old?

They must have improved it.


In German there is the inofficial word
"verschlimmbessern". It sums
up the action of "Here we have a working design but
let's optimize it
anyhow" and then it all goes to pots. A very common
scenario in
software design.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gp_D8r-2hwk


Sometimes those things happen for reasons Tom mentioned.
People using
library modules that others have written, assuming
everything in those
we be just fine. And then things aren't.

This is one of the reasons why I prefer gear with the
least amount of
electronics and software in there and, for example, will
never be caught
with electronic shifters on a bicycle.

True, but then people also have had the metal shift cables
break and
been restricted to a single gear. It appears that
everything is
subject to failure :-)


That is very rare, more so than a derailer ripped away by a
rock.

Main thing is, with batteries the number of available shifts
per charge is finite. I was told that front shifts are
especially hard on the battery and on mountainous
singletrack that's used a lot.

If I had north of $1k burning in my pocket I'd rather spend
that on a Rohloff. That one allows shifts across the
complete gear range at very low or zero speed which is very
useful in MTB riding. To heck with the extra weight.


Old fashioned junk. Try to keep up:

https://bikerumor.com/2019/02/24/rot...pset-at-1785g/

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Plus it's not expensive at all.

From the linked page:

"A complete groupset of shift & brake levers, brake calipers &
rotors, and the new 13-speed rear derailleur sells for $1830 / 1667€
(cranks, chainring & chain excluded). Add in another $415 / 380-400€
extra for the 13-speed cassette (plus the need for a specific hub) or
$365 / 334-350€ for a 12-speed version to work with your existing
Shimano freehub wheels."

A groupset that does NOT include the crankset, the chinrings, the
chain, the cassette or the hubs? Doesn't sound like much of a groupset to me.

$415.00 US JUST for a 13 gear cassette? Bring back the old 14 speed 2 x 7 setup! LOL

Cheers

BUT! It's NEW!

Actually I have 9 speed cassettes on two of my three bikes with either
dual or triple chain rings which gives me either 18 speeds or 27
speeds at a much, much lower price.

The third has a 10 speed setup because I got a pair of 10 speed STI
shifters almost free so cobbled up a 10 speed cassette and to be frank
I really can't tell the difference between 9 and 10 speed.

--
Cheers,
John B.

I too have a couple of bicycles with 9 speed x 3 chainrings. One is a 9
speed Veloce 30 - 42 - 52 set with a Veloce rear derailler and Mirage 9
speed shifters (ratchet left shifter) because the Mirage was the same
inside as the Veloce but a lot less $.

To keep selling components or frames even, manufacturers MUST come up
with NEW stuff and Marketting has to convince bicyclists that the
bicyclist MUST HAVE this latest doo dad.

On one of my bicycles I have a 9 gear 11 - 19 teeth corncob cluster on
it that I made up for fun from some 9 speed cassettes plus one cog from
an 8 speed cassette. It shifts just fine with the friction shifters I'm
using on that bike.

Cheers

It's been a few (more than a few) years but when I had a 7 speed with
2 chain rings I can't remember ever feeling that I needed more.I can
see the possibility of someone who raced wanting very close spaced
gears but for the average Joe I really doubt that they would average
any faster on, say a 2 hour ride, with a seven speed as opposed to a 9
or ten speed.

As far as cassettes go, I did the same thing on my "Bangkok bike".
Bangkok is built on an alluvial plain and there might be one tooth
difference in riding north as apposed to riding south and the only
hills are bridges. On a 20 km ride I might shift once. I built a 13 -
25 cassette as you did out of a bunch of loose cogs. With 50-42 chain
rings I've never wanted for more.

--
Cheers,
John B.

it would not surprise me to see the next great thing in bicycling being
an internally geared bottom bracket. Then you could have the equivalent
of at least three or four chainrings with nothing exposed.

You know, it's be interesting to calculate the gear jumps on that 13
speed cluster and then compare those with the jumps on a 7 or 8 speed cluster.

Cheers

"Internally geared bottom bracket"? You mean, like a Schlumpf drive?

http://www.schlumpfdrive.com/index.php/home-en.html

I wonder what would happen if you coupled that with the 13 rear cogs system mentioned upthread?

Cheers


I would still prefer my fixie for most rides. YMMV.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

OK, now we know you ride on the flats and have a weight problem...….


No mountains here and I'm 5'10", 150~155lbs.

For a 25 year old the ideal weight (Robinson-1983) seems to be 156.5
lbs. For the same height and age 60 the weight seems to be the same.
So you are hanging in there :-)

--
Cheers,
John B.