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  #61  
Old May 15th 17, 03:47 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 10,538
Default Shimano Headset

On 5/14/2017 10:04 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 15 May 2017 08:54:22 +0700, John B.

Any safety equipment that is not overly intrusive is worth using


??? Really??

OK, do you wear a bike helmet when driving to the start of a bike ride?


--
- Frank Krygowski
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  #62  
Old May 15th 17, 03:47 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
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Posts: 3,345
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On Sunday, May 14, 2017 at 1:06:34 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/14/2017 12:17 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Sunday, May 14, 2017 at 1:07:57 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-05-14 09:37, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Sunday, May 14, 2017 at 10:24:49 AM UTC-4, Joerg wrote: Snipped

Hint: A repetitive scraping noise is usually a sign of imminent
wear-out of some part. A derailer hanger coming apart on the 20mi
home isn't so cool because that means hoofing the remaining miles.

As unbelievable as it may sound I tend to invest that extra minute
or two to prevent such things.

-- Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

If you carried a chain-breaker you could shorten your chain when your
derailler hanger comes apart and then ride that 20mi home on the
single gear. Then you wouldn't have to worry about being stalked by
mountain lions.


I can do that without a chain breaker. However, Where I ride with my MTB
single gear won't help much. You'd be stuck all the time. I use almost
the whole gear range on every ride, jumping 4-6 gears all the time
because it has to happen fast.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/


You could simply put the chain onto a low gear and ride a bit slower. It'd still beat walking. But then again in your corner of the world nothing easy nor sensible (such as carrying a small multi-tool with a chain breaker on it) works. You'd rather scrounge rocks and rusty nails.

Cheers


In fairness, Joerg noted "single gear" which has only one
chain length (but too those have minimal chain troubles).

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


How would you get chain suck with a single speed?
  #63  
Old May 15th 17, 03:48 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
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Posts: 3,345
Default Shimano Headset

On Sunday, May 14, 2017 at 1:26:22 PM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Sunday, May 14, 2017 at 4:06:34 PM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/14/2017 12:17 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Sunday, May 14, 2017 at 1:07:57 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-05-14 09:37, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Sunday, May 14, 2017 at 10:24:49 AM UTC-4, Joerg wrote: Snipped

Hint: A repetitive scraping noise is usually a sign of imminent
wear-out of some part. A derailer hanger coming apart on the 20mi
home isn't so cool because that means hoofing the remaining miles.

As unbelievable as it may sound I tend to invest that extra minute
or two to prevent such things.

-- Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

If you carried a chain-breaker you could shorten your chain when your
derailler hanger comes apart and then ride that 20mi home on the
single gear. Then you wouldn't have to worry about being stalked by
mountain lions.


I can do that without a chain breaker. However, Where I ride with my MTB
single gear won't help much. You'd be stuck all the time. I use almost
the whole gear range on every ride, jumping 4-6 gears all the time
because it has to happen fast.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

You could simply put the chain onto a low gear and ride a bit slower. It'd still beat walking. But then again in your corner of the world nothing easy nor sensible (such as carrying a small multi-tool with a chain breaker on it) works. You'd rather scrounge rocks and rusty nails.

Cheers


In fairness, Joerg noted "single gear" which has only one
chain length (but too those have minimal chain troubles).

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


Well then pehaps in addition to a chain breaker perhaps he should c arry a spare chain too. If I thought that there was a very high probability of trashing a chain 20 miles into the wilderness I'd carry a spare chain too.

Cheers


Yeegads - it's getting pretty bad when I have to agree with Ridealot.
  #64  
Old May 15th 17, 03:50 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 10,538
Default Shimano Headset

On 5/14/2017 12:23 PM, jbeattie wrote:
Anyway, like I said, CPR can save lives ...


.... or at least delay death, which remains stubbornly inevitable.


--
- Frank Krygowski
  #65  
Old May 15th 17, 03:58 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
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Posts: 3,345
Default Shimano Headset

On Sunday, May 14, 2017 at 6:54:31 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 14 May 2017 15:00:55 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 14 May 2017 07:42:40 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On Saturday, May 13, 2017 at 8:43:29 PM UTC-7, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Sat, 13 May 2017 13:05:08 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On Friday, May 12, 2017 at 9:57:35 PM UTC-7, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Fri, 12 May 2017 08:23:02 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Thursday, May 11, 2017 at 10:06:04 AM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
Snipped
But then, to one who habitually uses a nail and a rock as a chain tool
the use of proper tools is probably a mystery.


Try to differentiate between an outdoors emergency situation and the
workshop in the garage. It's not that difficult.

-
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Which is hy mose of us carry a small tool repair kit that includes a chain-breaker. That way a broken chain isn't an ememrgency and a repair only takes a few seconds. After all seconds count when you're beig stalked by mountain lions or other hungry critters doesn't it? For someone who either breaks chains a lot or often comes across people with a broken chain (bother very rare where I ride even on the technical trails) it ONLY makes sense to have a chain breaker and spare link(s)and quick-link WITH YOU.

To be honest using a rock and rusty nail to repair a chain in the field sounds like something an armchair bicyclist would think up. Such a repaired chain would most likely fail again after only a short distance. Believe it or not there's good reasons why chain breakers are used to fix a chain.

Cheers

Out of curiosity I weighed and measured the chain tool that I carry in
my bike tool kit. It is 2-1/2 inches in length and 2-1/8 inches in
height. 1/2 inch thick, at its thickest, and weighs 2.6 ounces. It
works with chains up to and including 10 speed chains (I don't own an
11 speed). Frankly, as a broken chain immobilizes the bicycle I can
see no logic in not carrying it.

Since I have never once had a broken chain nor seen one I cannot see any
requirement to carry such a tool. Yesterday I did 55 miles and 2500
feet of climbing with some of it pretty steep ~12%. There were fore of
us there and the dirt encrusted on the bikes showed a certain lack of
careful maintenance. No one had any problems. I have been carrying all
these tools around for the last 6 years and the only one's I've used
are the tire repair tools.

Equally, I have had two crashes severe enough to break bones and in
neither did my head strike the ground. Thus, based on your logic,
there is no reason what so ever to wear a helmet.

There is almost no reason to wear a helmet under any conditions. If a

helmet was just barely able to protect me in a fall literally from 18"
what makes you think that a helmet can do anything other than protect
you from getting scratches on your head in a sideways fall at a dead
stop?

My oldest daughter hit her head on a concrete retaining wall hard
enough to crack the hardshell bike helmet and came away without a
scratch (on her head - she did get a bit of "road rash" elsewhere)-
and most certainly would have suffered a concussion without it. The
foam lining and hard plastic shell absorbed a LOT of impact.


Of course it happens. But equally, I had a run away horse run under an
apple tree and knock me off. In fact I was unconscious for a short
period. No helmet, and no concussion, or at least none that evidenced
any symptoms.

But my post was in response to someone that stated that, he rode 50
miles and didn't need a chain tool, thus chain tools aren't necessary.
I, perhaps somewhat whimsically, pointed out that as I had two severe
crashes without injuring my head that helmets obviously weren't
necessary either.

Alternately, there have been a number of people that fell or jumped
out of airplanes without a parachute and survived. Which may prove
that parachutes aren't necessary either.


From my point of view you are actually less likely to get a concussion without a helmet. You can even crack your head and because your skull is made to have at least some resiliency you can get away with less damage than with a helmet.

Bell's original calculation had to do with skull and neck strength. And they worked well on motorcycles because of the way motorcycles crash. (most crashes)

But bicycles are a different matter. You fall sideways and you protect yourself with your body. You go over the bars; you try to do a 180 and land on your back. It you go head first into a car or if you fall off in any manner where most of the force is taken by your head and a helmet is less than worthless.

There's no secret to this - the statistics are readily available and they show that with and without a "safety" helmet that the number of serious or fatal accidents involving the head are the same.

This is NOT something that should be under discussion on a group of experienced cyclists because all should know that you do not crash on a bike and expect to come way smiling.
  #66  
Old May 15th 17, 04:00 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,345
Default Shimano Headset

On Sunday, May 14, 2017 at 7:05:02 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Mon, 15 May 2017 08:54:22 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Sun, 14 May 2017 15:00:55 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 14 May 2017 07:42:40 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On Saturday, May 13, 2017 at 8:43:29 PM UTC-7, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Sat, 13 May 2017 13:05:08 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On Friday, May 12, 2017 at 9:57:35 PM UTC-7, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Fri, 12 May 2017 08:23:02 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Thursday, May 11, 2017 at 10:06:04 AM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
Snipped
But then, to one who habitually uses a nail and a rock as a chain tool
the use of proper tools is probably a mystery.


Try to differentiate between an outdoors emergency situation and the
workshop in the garage. It's not that difficult.

-
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Which is hy mose of us carry a small tool repair kit that includes a chain-breaker. That way a broken chain isn't an ememrgency and a repair only takes a few seconds. After all seconds count when you're beig stalked by mountain lions or other hungry critters doesn't it? For someone who either breaks chains a lot or often comes across people with a broken chain (bother very rare where I ride even on the technical trails) it ONLY makes sense to have a chain breaker and spare link(s)and quick-link WITH YOU.

To be honest using a rock and rusty nail to repair a chain in the field sounds like something an armchair bicyclist would think up. Such a repaired chain would most likely fail again after only a short distance. Believe it or not there's good reasons why chain breakers are used to fix a chain.

Cheers

Out of curiosity I weighed and measured the chain tool that I carry in
my bike tool kit. It is 2-1/2 inches in length and 2-1/8 inches in
height. 1/2 inch thick, at its thickest, and weighs 2.6 ounces. It
works with chains up to and including 10 speed chains (I don't own an
11 speed). Frankly, as a broken chain immobilizes the bicycle I can
see no logic in not carrying it.

Since I have never once had a broken chain nor seen one I cannot see any
requirement to carry such a tool. Yesterday I did 55 miles and 2500
feet of climbing with some of it pretty steep ~12%. There were fore of
us there and the dirt encrusted on the bikes showed a certain lack of
careful maintenance. No one had any problems. I have been carrying all
these tools around for the last 6 years and the only one's I've used
are the tire repair tools.

Equally, I have had two crashes severe enough to break bones and in
neither did my head strike the ground. Thus, based on your logic,
there is no reason what so ever to wear a helmet.

There is almost no reason to wear a helmet under any conditions. If a

helmet was just barely able to protect me in a fall literally from 18"
what makes you think that a helmet can do anything other than protect
you from getting scratches on your head in a sideways fall at a dead
stop?

My oldest daughter hit her head on a concrete retaining wall hard
enough to crack the hardshell bike helmet and came away without a
scratch (on her head - she did get a bit of "road rash" elsewhere)-
and most certainly would have suffered a concussion without it. The
foam lining and hard plastic shell absorbed a LOT of impact.


Of course it happens. But equally, I had a run away horse run under an
apple tree and knock me off. In fact I was unconscious for a short
period. No helmet, and no concussion, or at least none that evidenced
any symptoms.


Similar situation but the took me off on hydro pole. Took me right
out of my boots - and my ribs were sore for a month.

But my post was in response to someone that stated that, he rode 50
miles and didn't need a chain tool, thus chain tools aren't necessary.
I, perhaps somewhat whimsically, pointed out that as I had two severe
crashes without injuring my head that helmets obviously weren't
necessary either.

Alternately, there have been a number of people that fell or jumped
out of airplanes without a parachute and survived. Which may prove
that parachutes aren't necessary either.

Any safety equipment that is not overly intrusive is worth using


I will agree to that with the stipulation that most crashes on a bike are fall-offs with the head only being the minor damage.
  #67  
Old May 15th 17, 04:03 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
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Posts: 3,345
Default Shimano Headset

On Sunday, May 14, 2017 at 7:45:47 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 5/14/2017 3:00 PM, wrote:

My oldest daughter hit her head on a concrete retaining wall hard
enough to crack the hardshell bike helmet and came away without a
scratch (on her head - she did get a bit of "road rash" elsewhere)-
and most certainly would have suffered a concussion without it. The
foam lining and hard plastic shell absorbed a LOT of impact.


Sorry, but it's pretty clear that a broken or cracked helmet is not
evidence of a prevented concussion. There are probably thousands of
incidents of broken helmets per year; yet bike concussions have _risen_
tremendously since helmets became popular. Check out the article titled
"Senseless" in _Bicycling_ magazine, June 2013.
http://www.bicycling.com/sites/defau...-13-Helmet.pdf

"Here’s the trouble. Stat #3: As more people buckled on helmets, brain
injuries also increased. Between 1997 and 2011 the number of
bike-related concussions suffered annually by American riders increased
by 67 percent, from 9,327 to 15,546, according to the National
Electronic Injury Surveillance System..."

A broken helmet is evidence that helmets are very breakable.

--
- Frank Krygowski


The trouble is that the only way to make a safer helmet is to make one considerably larger. People would not buy them.
  #68  
Old May 15th 17, 04:05 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
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Posts: 445
Default Shimano Headset

On Sun, 14 May 2017 22:45:42 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 5/14/2017 3:00 PM, wrote:

My oldest daughter hit her head on a concrete retaining wall hard
enough to crack the hardshell bike helmet and came away without a
scratch (on her head - she did get a bit of "road rash" elsewhere)-
and most certainly would have suffered a concussion without it. The
foam lining and hard plastic shell absorbed a LOT of impact.


Sorry, but it's pretty clear that a broken or cracked helmet is not
evidence of a prevented concussion. There are probably thousands of
incidents of broken helmets per year; yet bike concussions have _risen_
tremendously since helmets became popular. Check out the article titled
"Senseless" in _Bicycling_ magazine, June 2013.
http://www.bicycling.com/sites/defau...-13-Helmet.pdf


We will have to agree to disagree. Only a fool would take extra risks
just because he is wearing a helmet.

"Here’s the trouble. Stat #3: As more people buckled on helmets, brain
injuries also increased. Between 1997 and 2011 the number of
bike-related concussions su?ered annually by American riders increased
by 67 percent, from 9,327 to 15,546, according to the National
Electronic Injury Surveillance System..."


The reporting of concussions has gone up in ALL sports - because of a
higher awareness and the fact there is better reporting systems in
place. Relating increased concussions to helmet use is mis-applying
the data - attributing a cause and effect where none exists.

A broken helmet is evidence that helmets are very breakable.


Actuaklly, hard shell foam helmets take quite a force to break.
There is a lot of evidence that proves the value of a decent bicycle
helmet in the event of an unavoidable crash


  #69  
Old May 15th 17, 04:34 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
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Posts: 445
Default Shimano Headset

On Sun, 14 May 2017 19:46:40 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Sunday, May 14, 2017 at 12:01:06 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sun, 14 May 2017 07:42:40 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On Saturday, May 13, 2017 at 8:43:29 PM UTC-7, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Sat, 13 May 2017 13:05:08 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On Friday, May 12, 2017 at 9:57:35 PM UTC-7, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Fri, 12 May 2017 08:23:02 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Thursday, May 11, 2017 at 10:06:04 AM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
Snipped
But then, to one who habitually uses a nail and a rock as a chain tool
the use of proper tools is probably a mystery.


Try to differentiate between an outdoors emergency situation and the
workshop in the garage. It's not that difficult.

-
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Which is hy mose of us carry a small tool repair kit that includes a chain-breaker. That way a broken chain isn't an ememrgency and a repair only takes a few seconds. After all seconds count when you're beig stalked by mountain lions or other hungry critters doesn't it? For someone who either breaks chains a lot or often comes across people with a broken chain (bother very rare where I ride even on the technical trails) it ONLY makes sense to have a chain breaker and spare link(s)and quick-link WITH YOU.

To be honest using a rock and rusty nail to repair a chain in the field sounds like something an armchair bicyclist would think up. Such a repaired chain would most likely fail again after only a short distance. Believe it or not there's good reasons why chain breakers are used to fix a chain.

Cheers

Out of curiosity I weighed and measured the chain tool that I carry in
my bike tool kit. It is 2-1/2 inches in length and 2-1/8 inches in
height. 1/2 inch thick, at its thickest, and weighs 2.6 ounces. It
works with chains up to and including 10 speed chains (I don't own an
11 speed). Frankly, as a broken chain immobilizes the bicycle I can
see no logic in not carrying it.

Since I have never once had a broken chain nor seen one I cannot see any
requirement to carry such a tool. Yesterday I did 55 miles and 2500
feet of climbing with some of it pretty steep ~12%. There were fore of
us there and the dirt encrusted on the bikes showed a certain lack of
careful maintenance. No one had any problems. I have been carrying all
these tools around for the last 6 years and the only one's I've used
are the tire repair tools.

Equally, I have had two crashes severe enough to break bones and in
neither did my head strike the ground. Thus, based on your logic,
there is no reason what so ever to wear a helmet.

There is almost no reason to wear a helmet under any conditions. If a helmet was just barely able to protect me in a fall literally from 18" what makes you think that a helmet can do anything other than protect you from getting scratches on your head in a sideways fall at a dead stop?

My oldest daughter hit her head on a concrete retaining wall hard
enough to crack the hardshell bike helmet and came away without a
scratch (on her head - she did get a bit of "road rash" elsewhere)-
and most certainly would have suffered a concussion without it. The
foam lining and hard plastic shell absorbed a LOT of impact.


I would suggest that you don't understand the nature and causes of concussion. And that you don't understand the mechanics of impact. Where did you get a hardshell bicycle helmet?

I don't know the age or weight of your child or what "retaining wall" means. Colliding and hitting your head in the forward lunge is NOT the same as falling off of your bike and taking the brunt of the collision with the ground on your head.

Sorry, but you would be wrong. I understand that concussions are
caused by the head decellerating too quickly, causing the brain to
bruise or twist inside the skull. I also know that compressing an inch
of foam can increase the time taken to slow the head to a stop - in
actual testing, about an extra 6ms - which changes the effective
impact significantly - reducing the peak impact force by more than
half. It spreads the force over a longer time - reducing the
decelleration.

When I say Hard shell, I don't mean fiberglass - this was a fairly
tough polypropelene shell - they were pretty common here in Ontario
Canada 20 years ago.
She was riding down a hill when the pedal broke and she lost control,
veering into a retaining wall made of bags of cement which was used to
stabilize a steep bank beside the road (the road is in a "cut") She
came off the bike sideways, hitting her head on the wall, and also
hitting her shoulder. Helmets protect against impacts whether caused
by the acceleration of gravity in a fall, are due to forward velocity
(which CAN be much higher than a strictly gravitational fall from
about 4 feet)


Lots of information that does not support the interpretation of
increased injuries due to helmet use here.

http://www.helmets.org/stats.htm

Also you need to talk to paramedics and emergency room physicians.
You will get a different story than Frank's.
 




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