MTB disc brake caused wild fire

On Wed, 04 Apr 2018 15:01:23 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote:

On 4/4/2018 1:34 PM, Joerg wrote:


I try not to follow other riders closely and generally use the 2-3
seconds rule for safety distances like one uses when driving a car. It
also makes me uncomfortable if others draft me at higher speed. I
understand the motivation behind it, it's just not safe when there is a
chance of a sudden speed change. Car pulling out in front of me, deer
jumping into the path, tire blow-out, etc.

If you're using the 2-3 second rule when riding with others, you're not
riding with others. And if drafting is too dangerous for you, you're
not much of a rider.

I hate to agree with you but. You are in my opinion correct. I have
ridden motorcycles at silly speeds at vary close quarters with people
whose reactions to road hazards are predictable. Everyone sees the bad
thing and reacts accordingly whilst maintaining sensible / some / just
enough distance between them.

You should not draft squirrely, unsteady riders. You should not ride too
close to people like that. But there are thousands of avid riders every
day who enjoy each others' company and/or have fun competing and
training or just touring.

These avid riders know what the best course of action is for given
situations and all of them would probably react similarly to certain
stimuli. Deer coming from the left. Brake and go left. Let it pass in
front. Squirrelly riders may go right and be claimed by the deer.


My wife completed her first century (in 1976) specifically because we
worked well as a team. I was good at towing her and she was good at
drafting me. She probably wouldn't have completed it otherwise.

Yes, it's possible to do all your riding solo, but its not as much fun.
And fear of riding near others indicates less competence on the bike.

Two player games are always more fun.



--
davethedave

On 4/4/2018 4:05 PM, jbeattie wrote:

What my CX and MTB friends do better than me is go over things. I just try to avoid those things, but it would be neat to be Peter Sagan: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxwP2MnDw28 He didn't need to do that, but if he had been squeezed, it was an option.

I've previously posted this tale, but maybe Joerg wasn't around then. It
was maybe 25 years ago, and two riding buddies and I were on a long and
pretty fast rural ride. The road was smooth but narrow and remote enough
that there was zero traffic. Although it wasn't legal, we were riding
along three abreast, maybe a foot between handlebars. I was in the middle.

As we approached an isolated farmhouse, a little dog suddenly ran out
yapping in front of us. Or rather, in front of me. (Really, unleashed
dogs are so rare around here it was quite a surprise.)

I had nowhere to go but up, so I jumped over the dog - or rather, over
most of it. My front wheel cleared, but my rear wheel hit his shoulder
and apparently broke it. As we stopped and turned around, he had one
front leg collapsed under him and was yapping and scooting in circles on
the road.

We somehow managed to get him off the road and pounded on the farmhouse
door for quite a while. A bleary-eyed young guy eventually appeared and
when we explained, said something like "Huh." So we rode on.

I've had lots of practice jumping the road bike, first on my commute
down south, where it was the best way over a set of bad railroad tracks.
On moving north, there was another set of bumpy tracks on my route to
work, and our local roads have given me thousands of potholes for practice.


--
- Frank Krygowski

On 2018-04-04 13:05, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, April 4, 2018 at 12:01:30 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski
wrote:
On 4/4/2018 1:34 PM, Joerg wrote:


I try not to follow other riders closely and generally use the
2-3 seconds rule for safety distances like one uses when driving
a car. It also makes me uncomfortable if others draft me at
higher speed. I understand the motivation behind it, it's just
not safe when there is a chance of a sudden speed change. Car
pulling out in front of me, deer jumping into the path, tire
blow-out, etc.

If you're using the 2-3 second rule when riding with others, you're
not riding with others. And if drafting is too dangerous for you,
you're not much of a rider.


Wot nonsense.


You should not draft squirrely, unsteady riders. You should not
ride too close to people like that. But there are thousands of avid
riders every day who enjoy each others' company and/or have fun
competing and training or just touring.

My wife completed her first century (in 1976) specifically because
we worked well as a team. I was good at towing her and she was good
at drafting me. She probably wouldn't have completed it otherwise.

Yes, it's possible to do all your riding solo, but its not as much
fun. And fear of riding near others indicates less competence on
the bike.

I let it space out on descents. I wasn't that close to my son and
would have had enough room to get by him if he hadn't hockey-pucked
down-slope on the reverse-banked turn. It was hard to plot a course
with a moving object in front of me.


The question is also, what would the outcome have been had you not gone
behind the saddle for harder braking? In most of my cases the answer
would be "worse".


Joerg's super-human MTB skills give him an advantage over mortal road
racers in some situations, e.g.:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gr89ku-K2WU BTW, Beloki's crash is
exactly Joerg's "instinct" scenario -- Beloki loses traction, shifts
weight back and brakes and then high-side crashes -- and breaks his
leg, among other bones. Slow-mo here at :34.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_8m5-sR6I4


Where does he go behind the saddle? All I can see is he shifts around on
it. With behind the saddle I mean really behind _and_ the belly on the
saddle.


What my CX and MTB friends do better than me is go over things. I
just try to avoid those things, but it would be neat to be Peter
Sagan: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxwP2MnDw28 He didn't need to
do that, but if he had been squeezed, it was an option. the usual
option is ala track racing -- push the guy next to you out of the
way.


Nice. Don't try that with loaded panniers in back ...

Yesterday on the way into the valley I had one of the typical "you don't
want to be inches behind me" scenarios. A whipsnake came slithering into
the road, fast. So it was the usual, scoot back, hard braking, go around.

http://www.californiaherps.com/snake...xanthusmt2.jpg

Some heartless people would say "You don't brake for an animal" but I
see that differently. Also, hitting a garden-hose type structure at a
shallow angle can be bad. I can't bunny hop the back of either of my
bikes because that's too heavy.

Those are beautiful snakes. Weird thing is, they seem to somehow notice
when something (like a bicycle) comes up from behind but then often do
the wrong thing. They freeze. Supposedly they can slither along at up to
10mph if in a hurry. Yet they often don't when speed would be needed the
most.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On Thursday, April 5, 2018 at 7:18:18 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-04 13:05, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, April 4, 2018 at 12:01:30 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski
wrote:
On 4/4/2018 1:34 PM, Joerg wrote:


I try not to follow other riders closely and generally use the
2-3 seconds rule for safety distances like one uses when driving
a car. It also makes me uncomfortable if others draft me at
higher speed. I understand the motivation behind it, it's just
not safe when there is a chance of a sudden speed change. Car
pulling out in front of me, deer jumping into the path, tire
blow-out, etc.

If you're using the 2-3 second rule when riding with others, you're
not riding with others. And if drafting is too dangerous for you,
you're not much of a rider.


Wot nonsense.


You should not draft squirrely, unsteady riders. You should not
ride too close to people like that. But there are thousands of avid
riders every day who enjoy each others' company and/or have fun
competing and training or just touring.

My wife completed her first century (in 1976) specifically because
we worked well as a team. I was good at towing her and she was good
at drafting me. She probably wouldn't have completed it otherwise.

Yes, it's possible to do all your riding solo, but its not as much
fun. And fear of riding near others indicates less competence on
the bike.

I let it space out on descents. I wasn't that close to my son and
would have had enough room to get by him if he hadn't hockey-pucked
down-slope on the reverse-banked turn. It was hard to plot a course
with a moving object in front of me.


The question is also, what would the outcome have been had you not gone
behind the saddle for harder braking? In most of my cases the answer
would be "worse".


Joerg's super-human MTB skills give him an advantage over mortal road
racers in some situations, e.g.:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gr89ku-K2WU BTW, Beloki's crash is
exactly Joerg's "instinct" scenario -- Beloki loses traction, shifts
weight back and brakes and then high-side crashes -- and breaks his
leg, among other bones. Slow-mo here at :34.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_8m5-sR6I4


Where does he go behind the saddle? All I can see is he shifts around on
it. With behind the saddle I mean really behind _and_ the belly on the
saddle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rc0kEMV8GYQ :029 -- arms extended, weight back over the seat.

And belly on the saddle? What, so the front end can cut loose? The guy got going sideways because he used too much brake on a slippery road surface. He also had a rear tubular that had or was in the process of rolling off the rim. When he got traction, he high-sided. Putting his belly on the saddle would have done nothing except hasten the inevitable, and more importantly, when you have a radical loss of traction, hard braking with your belly on the saddle is like hard braking on ice.

Belly on the saddle -- assuming you have the arms of an orangutan -- is to prevent pitch-over with in-line panic braking. It doesn't do anything for you in a turn, as I have already said. But I know you like that move, and the next time you are cornering and lose traction, give it a whirl. You'll lose more front end traction and probably high-side, but I don't know for certain and look forward to your report.

This is really the place where you should be ragging on rim brakes and rim heating, etc., etc. You need to get your agenda items straight. Beloki should have had discs with 12" rotors, although those might have caused a grass fire when he crashed.

-- Jay Beattie.

On 04/04/2018 1:34 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-04 10:01, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, April 4, 2018 at 9:17:14 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-04 08:49, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/4/2018 9:39 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-03 19:10, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/3/2018 10:47 AM, Joerg wrote:

It is not about preventing the crash, it clearly was too
late for that. It is about reducing the severity of the
crash. What is better, smacking into a car at 40mph or at
30mph?

I'm glad you're no longer implying he could have avoided the
crash. Now you're only claiming that if it were you, you
would have crashed a bit less hard. You're edging toward
reasonableness.


I would not have crashed. The reason is very simple: I do not
blast down long hills at breakneck speed.

In other words, you would never have been in a race on that road,
not even a beginner's race. Which means any comments you make are
completely irrelevant.


Just because you don't understand them does not make them
irrelevant. Racers and non-racers can get into critical situations
and then the right (trained) reactions help.

The advantage of going behind the saddle is such situations may not
be obvious to you but it is to many experienced riders.

I'm an experienced former USCF/USAC racer and rode the whole time you
were side-lined by traffic, including super-gnarly road races with
dangerous descents at brake-neck speeds with a bunch of incompetent
Cat 3 racers -- and then 1,2,3 masters who were a lot more competent
and often out of sight before I got to the downhill.Â* I also climb
and descend every day.

Personally, as a recognized expert in my own mind, I only get "behind
my saddle" for hard, in-line braking to prevent pitch over.
Descending I plan ahead -- pick a line and brake reasonably before
hitting the turn and keep my weight low and centered over the bike to
maximize contact with both tires. I'll shift my weight back to
counter front braking forces before a turn, but it's not some "belly
on the top tube" super-awesome thing.

Most "critical" situations descending are irreparable and involve
total loss of traction. If I carry too much speed into a turn and
have to brake in the turn while the bike is pitched over, I try to
brake lightly and stay relaxed -- which is really
counter-instinctive. I've only bailed into the bushes once in my
life. Hard braking of any kind -- with my butt back or not -- will
cause the front or rear wheel to lose traction, or it will cause the
bike to stand up and a high side crash. This is where road biking
differs from mountain biking -- you cant stick the rear wheel and
skid a turn.Â* When the sh** hits the fan, I try for a low side crash
-- which didn't work the last time.Â* Instead, I did exactly like you
said -- weight back, hard braking while set in a turn to avoid my son
who was sliding around on the road in front of me.Â* Bike stood up,
front wheel wobbled, and I did a high-side cartwheel right over him.
I now have a plate in my right hand to memorialize the crash.Â*Â* I
think its engraved with "always remember, give your son more room
when descending a wet road and he's riding on slippery OE tires."


Ouch, that must have been a bad crash. Your son was probably lucky that
you "pivoted" across him and not into him.

I try not to follow other riders closely and generally use the 2-3
seconds rule for safety distances like one uses when driving a car. It
also makes me uncomfortable if others draft me at higher speed. I
understand the motivation behind it, it's just not safe when there is a
chance of a sudden speed change. Car pulling out in front of me, deer
jumping into the path, tire blow-out, etc.


At a typical cruising speed of 30k/h, you leave 8-12 meters between
riders?

On Thursday, April 5, 2018 at 5:59:01 PM UTC+2, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, April 5, 2018 at 7:18:18 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-04 13:05, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, April 4, 2018 at 12:01:30 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski
wrote:
On 4/4/2018 1:34 PM, Joerg wrote:


I try not to follow other riders closely and generally use the
2-3 seconds rule for safety distances like one uses when driving
a car. It also makes me uncomfortable if others draft me at
higher speed. I understand the motivation behind it, it's just
not safe when there is a chance of a sudden speed change. Car
pulling out in front of me, deer jumping into the path, tire
blow-out, etc.

If you're using the 2-3 second rule when riding with others, you're
not riding with others. And if drafting is too dangerous for you,
you're not much of a rider.


Wot nonsense.


You should not draft squirrely, unsteady riders. You should not
ride too close to people like that. But there are thousands of avid
riders every day who enjoy each others' company and/or have fun
competing and training or just touring.

My wife completed her first century (in 1976) specifically because
we worked well as a team. I was good at towing her and she was good
at drafting me. She probably wouldn't have completed it otherwise.

Yes, it's possible to do all your riding solo, but its not as much
fun. And fear of riding near others indicates less competence on
the bike.

I let it space out on descents. I wasn't that close to my son and
would have had enough room to get by him if he hadn't hockey-pucked
down-slope on the reverse-banked turn. It was hard to plot a course
with a moving object in front of me.


The question is also, what would the outcome have been had you not gone
behind the saddle for harder braking? In most of my cases the answer
would be "worse".


Joerg's super-human MTB skills give him an advantage over mortal road
racers in some situations, e.g.:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gr89ku-K2WU BTW, Beloki's crash is
exactly Joerg's "instinct" scenario -- Beloki loses traction, shifts
weight back and brakes and then high-side crashes -- and breaks his
leg, among other bones. Slow-mo here at :34.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_8m5-sR6I4


Where does he go behind the saddle? All I can see is he shifts around on
it. With behind the saddle I mean really behind _and_ the belly on the
saddle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rc0kEMV8GYQ :029 -- arms extended, weight back over the seat.

And belly on the saddle? What, so the front end can cut loose? The guy got going sideways because he used too much brake on a slippery road surface.. He also had a rear tubular that had or was in the process of rolling off the rim. When he got traction, he high-sided. Putting his belly on the saddle would have done nothing except hasten the inevitable, and more importantly, when you have a radical loss of traction, hard braking with your belly on the saddle is like hard braking on ice.

Belly on the saddle -- assuming you have the arms of an orangutan -- is to prevent pitch-over with in-line panic braking. It doesn't do anything for you in a turn, as I have already said. But I know you like that move, and the next time you are cornering and lose traction, give it a whirl. You'll lose more front end traction and probably high-side, but I don't know for certain and look forward to your report.

This is really the place where you should be ragging on rim brakes and rim heating, etc., etc. You need to get your agenda items straight. Beloki should have had discs with 12" rotors, although those might have caused a grass fire when he crashed.

-- Jay Beattie.

I don't understand why you bother. It is like talking to a brick. Belly on your saddle, yeah right.


Lou

On Thursday, April 5, 2018 at 12:33:38 PM UTC-4, duane wrote:
On 04/04/2018 1:34 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-04 10:01, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, April 4, 2018 at 9:17:14 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-04 08:49, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/4/2018 9:39 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-03 19:10, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/3/2018 10:47 AM, Joerg wrote:

It is not about preventing the crash, it clearly was too
late for that. It is about reducing the severity of the
crash. What is better, smacking into a car at 40mph or at
30mph?

I'm glad you're no longer implying he could have avoided the
crash. Now you're only claiming that if it were you, you
would have crashed a bit less hard. You're edging toward
reasonableness.


I would not have crashed. The reason is very simple: I do not
blast down long hills at breakneck speed.

In other words, you would never have been in a race on that road,
not even a beginner's race. Which means any comments you make are
completely irrelevant.


Just because you don't understand them does not make them
irrelevant. Racers and non-racers can get into critical situations
and then the right (trained) reactions help.

The advantage of going behind the saddle is such situations may not
be obvious to you but it is to many experienced riders.

I'm an experienced former USCF/USAC racer and rode the whole time you
were side-lined by traffic, including super-gnarly road races with
dangerous descents at brake-neck speeds with a bunch of incompetent
Cat 3 racers -- and then 1,2,3 masters who were a lot more competent
and often out of sight before I got to the downhill.Â* I also climb
and descend every day.

Personally, as a recognized expert in my own mind, I only get "behind
my saddle" for hard, in-line braking to prevent pitch over.
Descending I plan ahead -- pick a line and brake reasonably before
hitting the turn and keep my weight low and centered over the bike to
maximize contact with both tires. I'll shift my weight back to
counter front braking forces before a turn, but it's not some "belly
on the top tube" super-awesome thing.

Most "critical" situations descending are irreparable and involve
total loss of traction. If I carry too much speed into a turn and
have to brake in the turn while the bike is pitched over, I try to
brake lightly and stay relaxed -- which is really
counter-instinctive. I've only bailed into the bushes once in my
life. Hard braking of any kind -- with my butt back or not -- will
cause the front or rear wheel to lose traction, or it will cause the
bike to stand up and a high side crash. This is where road biking
differs from mountain biking -- you cant stick the rear wheel and
skid a turn.Â* When the sh** hits the fan, I try for a low side crash
-- which didn't work the last time.Â* Instead, I did exactly like you
said -- weight back, hard braking while set in a turn to avoid my son
who was sliding around on the road in front of me.Â* Bike stood up,
front wheel wobbled, and I did a high-side cartwheel right over him.
I now have a plate in my right hand to memorialize the crash.Â*Â* I
think its engraved with "always remember, give your son more room
when descending a wet road and he's riding on slippery OE tires."


Ouch, that must have been a bad crash. Your son was probably lucky that
you "pivoted" across him and not into him.

I try not to follow other riders closely and generally use the 2-3
seconds rule for safety distances like one uses when driving a car. It
also makes me uncomfortable if others draft me at higher speed. I
understand the motivation behind it, it's just not safe when there is a
chance of a sudden speed change. Car pulling out in front of me, deer
jumping into the path, tire blow-out, etc.


At a typical cruising speed of 30k/h, you leave 8-12 meters between
riders?

I doubt anyone ever rides with Joerg.

- Frank Krygowski

On 2018-04-05 08:58, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, April 5, 2018 at 7:18:18 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-04 13:05, jbeattie wrote:

[...]


Joerg's super-human MTB skills give him an advantage over mortal
road racers in some situations, e.g.:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gr89ku-K2WU BTW, Beloki's crash
is exactly Joerg's "instinct" scenario -- Beloki loses traction,
shifts weight back and brakes and then high-side crashes -- and
breaks his leg, among other bones. Slow-mo here at :34.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_8m5-sR6I4


Where does he go behind the saddle? All I can see is he shifts
around on it. With behind the saddle I mean really behind _and_ the
belly on the saddle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rc0kEMV8GYQ :029 -- arms extended,
weight back over the seat.


Nope. At the most there is some jerking around of his body because the
bike is already way out of control at that point.


And belly on the saddle? What, so the front end can cut loose? The
guy got going sideways because he used too much brake on a slippery
road surface. He also had a rear tubular that had or was in the
process of rolling off the rim. When he got traction, he high-sided.
Putting his belly on the saddle would have done nothing except hasten
the inevitable, and more importantly, when you have a radical loss of
traction, hard braking with your belly on the saddle is like hard
braking on ice.

Belly on the saddle -- assuming you have the arms of an orangutan --
is to prevent pitch-over with in-line panic braking. It doesn't do
anything for you in a turn, as I have already said. But I know you
like that move, and the next time you are cornering and lose
traction, give it a whirl. You'll lose more front end traction and
probably high-side, but I don't know for certain and look forward to
your report.


I never said to do that in a curve or after a situation has already gone
out of control. It's before that. In the Guardsman video well before the
curve and a few riders (too few) did it correctly, butt way behind the
saddle and low body posture.

In my cases most of the events where I had to go behind the saddle were
caused by me. Like when I blew past a turn-off on singletrack and had a
rock pile coming up, fast. It works. Sometimes it's not my fault like
when a young buck decided to cut across the trail without looking. Then
there is no time, you need to do it without even thinking.

If I go down a very steep section that already looks scary to begin with
I scoot behind the saddle right from the top.


This is really the place where you should be ragging on rim brakes
and rim heating, etc., etc. You need to get your agenda items
straight. Beloki should have had discs with 12" rotors, although
those might have caused a grass fire when he crashed.


I am happy with 8". No "metallic smells" anymore.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 2018-04-05 09:33, Duane wrote:
On 04/04/2018 1:34 PM, Joerg wrote:

[...]

I try not to follow other riders closely and generally use the 2-3
seconds rule for safety distances like one uses when driving a car. It
also makes me uncomfortable if others draft me at higher speed. I
understand the motivation behind it, it's just not safe when there is
a chance of a sudden speed change. Car pulling out in front of me,
deer jumping into the path, tire blow-out, etc.


At a typical cruising speed of 30k/h, you leave 8-12 meters between riders?


More like 50ft or 15 meters unless the other rider is aware of me and I
know the rider well. On singletrack in the summer 100-200ft but that has
to do with dust kicked up by riders in front.

If I needed to minimize wind resistance I'd get a "rolling Zeppelin" but
I never felt that urge.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 06/04/2018 10:26 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-05 09:33, Duane wrote:
On 04/04/2018 1:34 PM, Joerg wrote:

[...]

I try not to follow other riders closely and generally use the 2-3
seconds rule for safety distances like one uses when driving a car. It
also makes me uncomfortable if others draft me at higher speed. I
understand the motivation behind it, it's just not safe when there is
a chance of a sudden speed change. Car pulling out in front of me,
deer jumping into the path, tire blow-out, etc.


At a typical cruising speed of 30k/h, you leave 8-12 meters between
riders?


More like 50ft or 15 meters unless the other rider is aware of me and I
know the rider well. On singletrack in the summer 100-200ft but that has
to do with dust kicked up by riders in front.


So most of what you are advising is worthless for group riding. I'm
probably not 15 inches from the person in front of me. When I'm on my
own, if I don't know the person I pass them.

If I needed to minimize wind resistance I'd get a "rolling Zeppelin" but
I never felt that urge.


You are in a different world. Nothing wrong with that but there's no
need to lecture people in this one.