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#11
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another Chicago cyclist
On Mon, 24 Sep 2018 10:04:21 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote: On Mon, 24 Sep 2018 12:09:32 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 9/24/2018 11:30 AM, AMuzi wrote: https://wbbm780.radio.com/dodge-char...h-pulaski-park The guy almost certainly was a cyclist, since he was standing with a bike. But this should be counted as a pedestrian death, not a bicycling death, because he was _standing_ with a bike. I beg to differ. I researched this type of statistical problem a few years ago. However, I'm not sure I can recall the exactly logic and standards. As I understand it, the means of transportation involved in the accident is on the basis of whether the vehicle was involved in the accident. The term "involved" is key here, as it can include a wide variety of ways a person might be involved. If someone stopped their car on a freeway, got out of the car, and was hit by passing traffic, that person would NOT be considered a pedestrian simply because they were not sitting in their car. It would be a vehicle accident because a car was "involved". Similarly, if someone was riding their bicycle, dismounted and was hit by a car, it would still be a cycling accident because the vehicle "involved" was a bicycle. According to that logic if you just walked out of your local bike shop and were hit by a bus it would be a bicycle accident? Or if you just walked out of a grocery store and were hit by the bus it would be a grocery accident? There is also something involving a persons intent to travel in some manner. If their intent was to ride a bicycle or drive a car, even though they were not riding or driving at that exact moment in time, they would still be considered a bicycle rider or car driver, rather than a pedestrian. However, I don't know exactly how the statistics are tabulated. Does a car versus bicycle accident count as one accident or two (one each for the car and for the bicycle)? I thought it might be buried in here, but I guess not: https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/ViewPublication/812507 There should be something on the NHTSA site, but I couldn't find it. https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov -- Cheers John B. |
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#12
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another Chicago cyclist
On Tue, 25 Sep 2018 06:26:58 +0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote: According to that logic if you just walked out of your local bike shop and were hit by a bus it would be a bicycle accident? Yep. If the majority of my trip was on the bicycle, and I stopped at the LBS (local bike shop) for some parts, and/or I intended to ride the bicycle home, it would be a bicycle accident. However, if I arrived in my car, parked it in the LBS parking lot, rode the bicycle into the LBS, and intended to return home in my car, only to be hit by the bus, it would be a vehicle (bus) accident because the bicycle was not my major means of transportation. Or if you just walked out of a grocery store and were hit by the bus it would be a grocery accident? Nope. My main means of transportation would have been as a pedestrian, making it a pedestrian accident. As I previously mentioned, I don't know if this is the logic used for establishing accident statistics or blame. -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
#13
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another Chicago cyclist
On 9/24/2018 7:02 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Tue, 25 Sep 2018 06:26:58 +0700, John B. Slocomb wrote: According to that logic if you just walked out of your local bike shop and were hit by a bus it would be a bicycle accident? Yep. If the majority of my trip was on the bicycle, and I stopped at the LBS (local bike shop) for some parts, and/or I intended to ride the bicycle home, it would be a bicycle accident. However, if I arrived in my car, parked it in the LBS parking lot, rode the bicycle into the LBS, and intended to return home in my car, only to be hit by the bus, it would be a vehicle (bus) accident because the bicycle was not my major means of transportation. Or if you just walked out of a grocery store and were hit by the bus it would be a grocery accident? Nope. My main means of transportation would have been as a pedestrian, making it a pedestrian accident. As I previously mentioned, I don't know if this is the logic used for establishing accident statistics or blame. As a student of the culture through newspapers, you just need to carry. If by chance you're smacked while riding or in a crosswalk you'll be 'another senseless firearm death'. problem solved. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
#14
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another Chicago cyclist
On Mon, 24 Sep 2018 17:02:16 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote: On Tue, 25 Sep 2018 06:26:58 +0700, John B. Slocomb wrote: According to that logic if you just walked out of your local bike shop and were hit by a bus it would be a bicycle accident? Yep. If the majority of my trip was on the bicycle, and I stopped at the LBS (local bike shop) for some parts, and/or I intended to ride the bicycle home, it would be a bicycle accident. However, if I arrived in my car, parked it in the LBS parking lot, rode the bicycle into the LBS, and intended to return home in my car, only to be hit by the bus, it would be a vehicle (bus) accident because the bicycle was not my major means of transportation. How about if I rode the bike to the shop yesterday to have the bar tape replaced and I'm picking it up today without having ridden it yet? (I believe that the discussion has reached of being an example of a point of nit picking :-) Or if you just walked out of a grocery store and were hit by the bus it would be a grocery accident? Nope. My main means of transportation would have been as a pedestrian, making it a pedestrian accident. As I previously mentioned, I don't know if this is the logic used for establishing accident statistics or blame. -- Cheers John B. |
#15
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another Chicago cyclist
On Mon, 24 Sep 2018 10:04:21 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote: There is also something involving a persons intent to travel in some manner. If their intent was to ride a bicycle or drive a car, even though they were not riding or driving at that exact moment in time, they would still be considered a bicycle rider or car driver, rather than a pedestrian. If the person was walking to their car from their office, intending to drive home, and was struck and killed in the street- would hat be a pedestrian death or a driver death? Color me puzzled. |
#16
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another Chicago cyclist
On Wed, 26 Sep 2018 21:48:45 -0500, Tim McNamara
wrote: On Mon, 24 Sep 2018 10:04:21 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote: There is also something involving a persons intent to travel in some manner. If their intent was to ride a bicycle or drive a car, even though they were not riding or driving at that exact moment in time, they would still be considered a bicycle rider or car driver, rather than a pedestrian. If the person was walking to their car from their office, intending to drive home, and was struck and killed in the street- would hat be a pedestrian death or a driver death? Color me puzzled. Pedestrian death. There was too much distance and too long a time between when this person had last used the car or planned to use their car, to be considered a driver death. Intent was also not totally clear as they might have stopped and engaged in unrelated activities on their way to walking to their car. Much depends on what is considered a reasonable distance or time interval where this person morphs from a pedestrian into a driver, which would give the coroner some guidance on making the determination. Try your luck. If a said person was out of gasoline and resorted to pushing their car, and they were subsequently hit by a car, would that be considered a pedestrian or automobile accident? If a bicycle rider was clobbered by an eagle falling from the sky, would that be considered a bicycle accident or an aviation accident? If a cyclist rode his mountain bike into a construction site and fell into a deep hole, would that be a cycling accident, construction accident, or mining accident? If a cyclist has a heart attack while riding, is it considered to be a bicycling death, or did they die of natural causes? Actually, I know the answer to that one. If it is not completely clear that someone died in some specific artificial manner, it is considered a natural death by default. Everything depends on the autopsy, which is mandatory in Santa Cruz county (except if there is a physician in attendance at the time of death). I suspect most of the fatal accident statistics are derived from autopsy reports which would specify the manner and cause of death and possibly assign the blame. In my checkered past, I had some marginal experience with such things. I worked for an insurance actuary calculating risks and costs involving various types of accidents. Basically, I spent a disgusting summer putting price tags on body parts[1]. I did not make the determination as to the type of accident where I might have been able to answer such questions with some authority. However, I know someone who works in the local sheriff-coroners office. I'll ask if she knows more on the topic. [1] A few years earlier, I had working a mortuary as an "assistant embalmer" which meant I pushed a broom and clean up the mess. I attribute my ability to retain my lunch while discussing certain high government officials to this experience. -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
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