Is cleaning part of a complete ($140) overhaul ?

I just had a C$140 "complete overhaul" done as part
of the replacement of a frame.

They didn't have to overhaul the bb or headset or
front derailleur, since these are new.

They flatly refused to overhaul the pedals
(inexpensive touring pedals, not clipless). Their
description of a "complete overhaul" includes
"replace all ball bearings, repack with clean
grease, assemble." Silly me, I thought that would
include pedals.

I noticed that the chain was filthy and dry, and that
they'd left out the PowerLink(tm). Looking more closely,
I see that the cassette cogs and chainrings still have
the waxy / gritty buildup from the ProLink chainlube.
The brakes are filthy, the rear derailleur is filthy, the
STI levers are filthy - you get the drift. It looks like
they just hosed off the old bike before taking it apart.

I asked another LBS whether their $125 overhaul includes
cleaning everything (i.e. cleaning with solvent while parts
are off the frame). They said yes. Talk is cheap :-)

Their mechanic also peeled back the dust cover on the
LX hubs and said it had the original Shimano factory grease,
not the green waterproof grease commonly used in an overhaul.
He commented on the dirt remaining on various parts, including
the LX hub seals. I don't know how one cleans rubber seals
thoroughly without damaging the rubber.

I mentioned this as tactfully as possible to the mechanic
who did the overhaul. He assures me that the hubs were done
(I thought the cassette had to be removed for the rear hub?)

I asked about the chain - "oh, we don't use PowerLinks'). Well,
I do. And he said they used a dry Teflon(tm) lube. Which is
fair, but I'd expect the chain to b cleaned to bare metal
first (lots of Prolink residue and dirt). It sounded like a
dry chain, and ProLink reduced the noise considerably.

Does this sound like they did a complete overhaul ?
If not, I suspect I should get the hubs overhauled
properly next spring.

Thanks

"mark freedman" wrote in message
om...
I just had a C$140 "complete overhaul" done as part
of the replacement of a frame.

Labour only? Or parts and labour? $140CDN is appropriate for a properly
done overhaul.


They didn't have to overhaul the bb or headset or
front derailleur, since these are new.

Yeah, but they still have to be assembled. I wouldn't quibble over these
things. Sometimes headset installations can be a disaster. Give them the
benefit of the doubt here.


They flatly refused to overhaul the pedals
(inexpensive touring pedals, not clipless). Their
description of a "complete overhaul" includes
"replace all ball bearings, repack with clean
grease, assemble." Silly me, I thought that would
include pedals.

Pedals are a tricky thing. Sometimes we refused to overhaul them because
the cheaper ones sometimes will not come apart and go back together. Dust
caps can break or strip and you can't get new parts. If any parts are
damaged you can't get new parts. It's a hopeless effort at times.
Sometimes, especially if they're cheap, you're better off just getting new
ones. I'm not saying your pedals are like this (I have never seen your bike
and you can judge for yourself) but this is experience after 10 years of
being a mechanic. And I'm not saying it's right that you think you're paying
for this service and it's not done, but that is the reality at times.


I noticed that the chain was filthy and dry, and that
they'd left out the PowerLink(tm). Looking more closely,
I see that the cassette cogs and chainrings still have
the waxy / gritty buildup from the ProLink chainlube.
The brakes are filthy, the rear derailleur is filthy, the
STI levers are filthy - you get the drift. It looks like
they just hosed off the old bike before taking it apart.

Hmmm..I wonder if they overhauled anything...the major point of an overhaul
is a thorough cleaning of EVERYTHING. This is not acceptable IMHO. As far
as the PowerLink, maybe they just don't like it, or damaged it on the way
out. I wouldn't crucify them for not re-using it..sometimes a well joined
chain is just as good when done properly. Still, if YOU liked the
PowerLink, they should at LEAST charge you for a new one and put it in! At
best they'll just throw in a new one.


I asked another LBS whether their $125 overhaul includes
cleaning everything (i.e. cleaning with solvent while parts
are off the frame). They said yes. Talk is cheap :-)

No, cleaning everything is standard (for me anyway). When we did overhauls,
we removed everything (absolutely everything...except ****ty pedals that we
can't get parts for... ;-), cleaned it in a varsol washer and re-assembled.
It should look like the day you bought it, except for permanent disfiguring
marks...no dirt at all.


Their mechanic also peeled back the dust cover on the
LX hubs and said it had the original Shimano factory grease,
not the green waterproof grease commonly used in an overhaul.
He commented on the dirt remaining on various parts, including
the LX hub seals. I don't know how one cleans rubber seals
thoroughly without damaging the rubber.

That green waterproof grease is superior to the Shimano grease, believe me.
You can completely clean the rubber seals very easily. The casette doesn't
HAVE to be removed to o/haul the hub, but it should be to be cleaned itself.
You cannot do a proper overhaul without removing the casette! Sounds like
you got a piece-work mechanic and a sloppy shop. Find another...RUN!! Was
this shop in Toronto by chance?


I mentioned this as tactfully as possible to the mechanic
who did the overhaul. He assures me that the hubs were done
(I thought the cassette had to be removed for the rear hub?)

I asked about the chain - "oh, we don't use PowerLinks'). Well,
I do. And he said they used a dry Teflon(tm) lube. Which is
fair, but I'd expect the chain to b cleaned to bare metal
first (lots of Prolink residue and dirt). It sounded like a
dry chain, and ProLink reduced the noise considerably.

Yeah, this shop sucks. Personally, I HATED cleaning chains and I took every
opportunity to just toss and install a new one. Fortunately, many riders
who come in for an o/haul wanted new chains (they were due anyway..) and I
didn't have to do it. It's a horribly messy job that mechanics hate even
more than the do-it-yourselfer. At least when you do it yourself, you have
all the time in the world, it's your chain and can do a nice job. In an
o/haul, time is of the essence ($140 for a real o/haul is actually pretty
cheap..it takes a solid 4-6hrs to do it right..more like 8hrs sometimes) and
cleaning the chain must be done quickly and effectively. Nothing is harder
to clean than a chain. And it's not even your chain! It ranks right up
there with installing baby seats and fenders....


Does this sound like they did a complete overhaul ?
If not, I suspect I should get the hubs overhauled
properly next spring.

Thanks

Unfortunately, I don't think they did a good job. Have the hubs re-done.
It's too bad you have to find a bad shop the hard way. Are you in Toronto?
I can recommend a few good ones....

Cheers,

Scott..

When you go to the doctor do you expect him to give you a bath? I'd be
embarrassed to bring in a bike in the condition you describe. While it
does sound like they did a ****ty job, they probably didn't want to touch
it because it was so filthy!


"mark freedman" wrote in message
om...
I just had a C$140 "complete overhaul" done as part
of the replacement of a frame.

They didn't have to overhaul the bb or headset or
front derailleur, since these are new.

They flatly refused to overhaul the pedals
(inexpensive touring pedals, not clipless). Their
description of a "complete overhaul" includes
"replace all ball bearings, repack with clean
grease, assemble." Silly me, I thought that would
include pedals.

I noticed that the chain was filthy and dry, and that
they'd left out the PowerLink(tm). Looking more closely,
I see that the cassette cogs and chainrings still have
the waxy / gritty buildup from the ProLink chainlube.
The brakes are filthy, the rear derailleur is filthy, the
STI levers are filthy - you get the drift. It looks like
they just hosed off the old bike before taking it apart.

I asked another LBS whether their $125 overhaul includes
cleaning everything (i.e. cleaning with solvent while parts
are off the frame). They said yes. Talk is cheap :-)

Their mechanic also peeled back the dust cover on the
LX hubs and said it had the original Shimano factory grease,
not the green waterproof grease commonly used in an overhaul.
He commented on the dirt remaining on various parts, including
the LX hub seals. I don't know how one cleans rubber seals
thoroughly without damaging the rubber.

I mentioned this as tactfully as possible to the mechanic
who did the overhaul. He assures me that the hubs were done
(I thought the cassette had to be removed for the rear hub?)

I asked about the chain - "oh, we don't use PowerLinks'). Well,
I do. And he said they used a dry Teflon(tm) lube. Which is
fair, but I'd expect the chain to b cleaned to bare metal
first (lots of Prolink residue and dirt). It sounded like a
dry chain, and ProLink reduced the noise considerably.

Does this sound like they did a complete overhaul ?
If not, I suspect I should get the hubs overhauled
properly next spring.

Thanks

I can't comment on most of the things you brought up, since I didn't see the
bike before and after, but will mention that overhauling pedal bearings is
almost never part of a normal overhaul on a bike. Typically it's too
time-consuming relative to the price of the product (in other words, it
costs nearly as much to tear them apart, clean & reassemble as it does to
buy new ones), and, perhaps more importantly, most pedals seem to go on
virtually forever without maintenance.

I will also mention some frustration at my end (as owner of an LBS) that a
mechanic with great skills will spend hours working magic on a massive
overhaul on a bike, making the brakes & gears work like they've never worked
before, and not understand that the first thing the customer pays attention
to is that the handlebar tape isn't wrapped well or that the frame hasn't
been wiped down. Arrggghhh!!!! (Just to be clear, my frustration isn't
with the customer; their reaction is entirely understandable. It's the
mechanic who just can't understand that the customer can't get past what the
bike *looks* like, vs how it rides.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
http://www.ChainReactionBicycles.com


"mark freedman" wrote in message
om...
I just had a C$140 "complete overhaul" done as part
of the replacement of a frame.

They didn't have to overhaul the bb or headset or
front derailleur, since these are new.

They flatly refused to overhaul the pedals
(inexpensive touring pedals, not clipless). Their
description of a "complete overhaul" includes
"replace all ball bearings, repack with clean
grease, assemble." Silly me, I thought that would
include pedals.

I noticed that the chain was filthy and dry, and that
they'd left out the PowerLink(tm). Looking more closely,
I see that the cassette cogs and chainrings still have
the waxy / gritty buildup from the ProLink chainlube.
The brakes are filthy, the rear derailleur is filthy, the
STI levers are filthy - you get the drift. It looks like
they just hosed off the old bike before taking it apart.

I asked another LBS whether their $125 overhaul includes
cleaning everything (i.e. cleaning with solvent while parts
are off the frame). They said yes. Talk is cheap :-)

Their mechanic also peeled back the dust cover on the
LX hubs and said it had the original Shimano factory grease,
not the green waterproof grease commonly used in an overhaul.
He commented on the dirt remaining on various parts, including
the LX hub seals. I don't know how one cleans rubber seals
thoroughly without damaging the rubber.

I mentioned this as tactfully as possible to the mechanic
who did the overhaul. He assures me that the hubs were done
(I thought the cassette had to be removed for the rear hub?)

I asked about the chain - "oh, we don't use PowerLinks'). Well,
I do. And he said they used a dry Teflon(tm) lube. Which is
fair, but I'd expect the chain to b cleaned to bare metal
first (lots of Prolink residue and dirt). It sounded like a
dry chain, and ProLink reduced the noise considerably.

Does this sound like they did a complete overhaul ?
If not, I suspect I should get the hubs overhauled
properly next spring.

Thanks

On Tue, 09 Sep 2003 05:03:13 GMT, "Mike Jacoubowsky"
wrote:

I can't comment on most of the things you brought up, since I didn't see the
bike before and after, but will mention that overhauling pedal bearings is
almost never part of a normal overhaul on a bike. Typically it's too
time-consuming relative to the price of the product (in other words, it
costs nearly as much to tear them apart, clean & reassemble as it does to
buy new ones), and, perhaps more importantly, most pedals seem to go on
virtually forever without maintenance.

I will also mention some frustration at my end (as owner of an LBS) that a
mechanic with great skills will spend hours working magic on a massive
overhaul on a bike, making the brakes & gears work like they've never worked
before, and not understand that the first thing the customer pays attention
to is that the handlebar tape isn't wrapped well or that the frame hasn't
been wiped down. Arrggghhh!!!! (Just to be clear, my frustration isn't
with the customer; their reaction is entirely understandable. It's the
mechanic who just can't understand that the customer can't get past what the
bike *looks* like, vs how it rides.

As in any other business, its customer perception that counts. It's
been (unfortunately) proven over and over that even if you leave the
"repair" undone, but clean it up, a lot of people will never complain.
Not that I endorse that of course, but people are strange sometimes.

I would agree that a complete overhaul includes making everything
work, which - to me anyway - includes a complete disassembly and
reassembly of anything that can be. It just seems obvious that to
check over a part, it needs to be clean. How can you check for stress
cracks with dirt all over it?

Time is money, and as someone else posted, it can take more time than
you would think to do a good job at an overhaul. If you pay someone to
do a good job, you should expect the job do be done right. If it takes
a bit longer than the shop expected - so be it. The price quoted
should cover situations where it takes longer - and times where it
takes less time.

"ride your bike" wrote in message
. ..
When you go to the doctor do you expect him to give you a bath? I'd be
embarrassed to bring in a bike in the condition you describe. While it
does sound like they did a ****ty job, they probably didn't want to touch
it because it was so filthy!



Nah, that's not really an excuse. Every part has to come off anyway, and it
gets thrown in the cleaning tank. It takes 5 mins longer to clean the
frame. I mean, if a job's worth doing, you have to do it right. NOTHING
****es off a customer more than their bike being dirty when they get it
back. You only get one shot at keeping a customer..if you get it wrong,
that customer walks and you're on the road to bankruptcy. Now, it'd be NICE
if everyone cleaned their bikes before bringing them in.......

Cheers,

Scott..

Dan Brussee wrote in message . ..


I would agree that a complete overhaul includes making everything
work, which - to me anyway - includes a complete disassembly and
reassembly of anything that can be. It just seems obvious that to
check over a part, it needs to be clean. How can you check for stress
cracks with dirt all over it?



I may have unreasonable expectations, i.e. that
a "thorough cleaning" done with all parts off the frame
will produce better results than my usual cleaning.

I start with a quick rinse, then brush with a soft
carwash brush to loosen dirt from easily-reached areas
(rims, tires, spokes, frame), then another rinse.

I clean the cassette with a Park gear brush (serrated
handle end), floss between the cogs with a thick cord,
brush the teeth with a toothbrush (no, I don't use it
to brush my teeth afterwards. It becomes my "guest"
toothbrush :-)). This leaves some bits of hardened
chainlube and grime, which I had hoped would be dissolved
when (if) the cassette was removed and soaked in solvent.
They weren't after this "thorough cleaning."

The plastic spoke protector IS filthy - it can't be
properly cleaned without removing the cassette.
For $3 (retail), I'd be inclined to pop in a new one
if I was doing a "thorough cleaning."

I clean the chain with a scrubber, I find that the
solvent stays clear by the third change, and all traces
of dried / sticky lube and grime are gone. They weren't
after this "thorough cleaning."

(I don't know if the shop actually re-lubed with a
dry teflon(tm) lube, it looked, felt, and sounded like
a dirty, dry chain. I know that some lubes reduce noise
more than others. I re-lubed with Prolink and the noise
was gone.)

I scrape dried chainlube from the chainrings with a
wooden popsicle stick, floss between the rings, clean
as well as I can with the toothbrush, sometimes use
solvent to remove grime. This leaves some hardened
chainlube and grime, which I had hoped would be dissolved
when the crankset (or just the chainrings) were removed
and soaked. They weren't after this "thorough cleaning."

I use a different toothbrush with warm, soapy water
to scrub the brake pads and mechanism as well as I can,
with the wheels removed but the V-brakes still on the
frame. I had hoped the areas I can't reach would have
been cleaned once the brakes were off the frame. They
weren't after this "thorough cleaning."

I use the same toothbrush for other nooks and crannies
in the frame, but always miss some dirt. Since the frame
was replaced, I can't just how well the old frame was
washed. (Why don't I just replace the frame when
it's dirty. :-) )

I also brush and wipe the derailleur pivot areas and
lube with tri-flo (small applicator tube). I scrape
hardened chainlube from the pulleys, brush, and re-lube
the bushings. This leaves some bits of hardened chainlube
and grime, which I had hoped would be dissolved when
the derailleur was removed and soaked in solvent.They
weren't after this "thorough cleaning."

I lube the STI levers occasionally, so there's a bit
of lube and grime which could be wiped off (I don't want
THEM soaked in solvent :-().

I don't know how to clean the rubber dust seals on
the hubs, beyond the soft carwash brush and soapy water,
so they have some accumlated grime. I had hoped this would
be removed as part of the thorough cleaning, especially
since they claim to have overhauled the hubs. If I was
doing the overhaul myself, I'd try to buy new seals
(1999 LX), since rubber hardens and cracks.

I've probably missed a few things, but when I say
"filthy," I mean that I expected cassette, chain, etc.
to be free of dried chainlube, grime, dirt once they'd
been removed from the frame and cleaned as part of a
complete overhaul. IMO leaving chainlube residue
and dirt on a chain is inexcusable.

I'll just go and obsess about something else now :-)


btw Would a shop overhaul the hubs using grease
which looks like Shimano factory grease, rather than the
waterproof green stuff ?

Thanks.

cd- They didn't have to overhaul the bb or headset or
front derailleur, since these are new.

They flatly refused to overhaul the pedals
(inexpensive touring pedals, not clipless). Their
description of a "complete overhaul" includes
"replace all ball bearings, repack with clean
grease, assemble." Silly me, I thought that would
include pedals.

I noticed that the chain was filthy and dry, and that
they'd left out the PowerLink(tm). Looking more closely,
I see that the cassette cogs and chainrings still have
the waxy / gritty buildup from the ProLink chainlube.
The brakes are filthy, the rear derailleur is filthy, the
STI levers are filthy - you get the drift. It looks like
they just hosed off the old bike before taking it apart. BRBR

Cleaning is part of our overhaul, cleaning everything as good as possible. We
don't overhaul pedals as part of a OVH either.

CD I don't know how one cleans rubber seals
thoroughly without damaging the rubber. BRBR


Ya just take them off and clean them, they won't get damaged.

If ya don't think they did a good job, talk to the owner. If no soap, go
elsewhere.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

On Mon, 08 Sep 2003 15:42:22 +0000, mark freedman wrote:

They flatly refused to overhaul the pedals
(inexpensive touring pedals, not clipless). Their
description of a "complete overhaul" includes
"replace all ball bearings, repack with clean grease, assemble." Silly me,
I thought that would include pedals.

These days, they expect pedals to have "sealed" cartridge bearings, just
like bottom brackets. The idea is that those aren't their problem. Many
bikes also have cartidge bearing headsets, so "replace all ball bearings"
means just the hubs.

I've rebuilt lots of pedals, and they are a RPITA. Cheap ones like you
describe have lots of teeny bearings, and poor races. They are difficult
to adjust and, as mentioned, more trouble than they are worth. Good ones
are as easy to service as hubs. You might consider that if you want to
keep touring pedals.


I noticed that the chain was filthy and dry, and that
they'd left out the PowerLink(tm).

You know, for $140, I would presume you'd get a new chain.

Looking more closely, I see that the
cassette cogs and chainrings still have the waxy / gritty buildup from the
ProLink chainlube. The brakes are filthy, the rear derailleur is filthy,
the STI levers are filthy - you get the drift. It looks like they just
hosed off the old bike before taking it apart.

I asked another LBS whether their $125 overhaul includes
cleaning everything (i.e. cleaning with solvent while parts are off the
frame). They said yes. Talk is cheap :-)

Hey, take the bike to them. See what they do. If they give decent
service, then the $140 would be a small price to pay to find a reason to
use one shop instead of another.

Dunking the derailleurs and cassette in solvent while they are off the
bikes is a given. Who would re-assemble a cassette without cleaning it?


Their mechanic also peeled back the dust cover on the
LX hubs and said it had the original Shimano factory grease, not the green
waterproof grease commonly used in an overhaul.

Lots of different grease is used in overhauls. IIRC "Shimano factory
grease" is, to all appearances, white lithium grease. Commonly used to
re-pack hubs. You should easily be able to tell if the grease is new --
it'll be much cleaner. Waterproof grease is not that commonly used,
since it is sticky, unless you are in a very rainy climate.

He commented on the dirt
remaining on various parts, including the LX hub seals. I don't know how
one cleans rubber seals thoroughly without damaging the rubber.

Well, they can't really be rubber, or the grease would degrade them
quickly. One cleans the seals like every other part.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | It is a scientifically proven fact that a mid life crisis can
_`\(,_ | only be cured by something racy and Italian. Bianchis and
(_)/ (_) | Colnagos are a lot cheaper than Maserattis and Ferraris. --
Glenn Davies

"mark freedman" wrote in message
om...
I just had a C$140 "complete overhaul" done as part
of the replacement of a frame.

They didn't have to overhaul the bb or headset or
front derailleur, since these are new.

They flatly refused to overhaul the pedals
(inexpensive touring pedals, not clipless). Their
description of a "complete overhaul" includes
"replace all ball bearings, repack with clean
grease, assemble." Silly me, I thought that would
include pedals.

I noticed that the chain was filthy and dry, and that
they'd left out the PowerLink(tm). Looking more closely,
I see that the cassette cogs and chainrings still have
the waxy / gritty buildup from the ProLink chainlube.
The brakes are filthy, the rear derailleur is filthy, the
STI levers are filthy - you get the drift. It looks like
they just hosed off the old bike before taking it apart.

I asked another LBS whether their $125 overhaul includes
cleaning everything (i.e. cleaning with solvent while parts
are off the frame). They said yes. Talk is cheap :-)

Their mechanic also peeled back the dust cover on the
LX hubs and said it had the original Shimano factory grease,
not the green waterproof grease commonly used in an overhaul.
He commented on the dirt remaining on various parts, including
the LX hub seals. I don't know how one cleans rubber seals
thoroughly without damaging the rubber.

I mentioned this as tactfully as possible to the mechanic
who did the overhaul. He assures me that the hubs were done
(I thought the cassette had to be removed for the rear hub?)

I asked about the chain - "oh, we don't use PowerLinks'). Well,
I do. And he said they used a dry Teflon(tm) lube. Which is
fair, but I'd expect the chain to b cleaned to bare metal
first (lots of Prolink residue and dirt). It sounded like a
dry chain, and ProLink reduced the noise considerably.

Does this sound like they did a complete overhaul ?
If not, I suspect I should get the hubs overhauled
properly next spring.


I charge more if I have to clean the bike or parts, or myself when done.
It's time. If you take my time, I charge you. If I charge you a flat fee,
you get less work done. Very simple.

FWIW, I don't even clean filthy chains. For what it takes in time, it's
just more cost-effective to replace the thing.



--
Robin Hubert