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#61
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Black bear attacks mountain biker in Washington State park
On Fri, 14 Sep 2007 16:31:52 -0700, y_p_w wrote:
On Sep 14, 2:20 pm, (Floyd L. Davidson) wrote: Chris wrote: Mike Vandeman wrote: Chris wrote: Mike, We finally have a subject where we agree. The bear should not be killed. Thanks. Did you do anything to prevent that? I did exactly the same thing you did. Nothing! Nice job Mike. But....... You were wrong in your statement "It's a well known fact that black bears don't attack humans, except to defend their cubs." Okay. Unfortunately, you are both wrong. The bear should be killed. That is an unfortunate tragedy, but life is not necessarily nice. Bears are not terribly bright compared to humans, they do not often reason out what works and what doesn't... they mostly learn by repetition and form habits to go along with instinct. Instinct tells them that humans are scary things that they should stay away from. But it takes just about exactly 1 instance where that is proven wrong for a bear to become habituated towards attacking rather than fleeing from a human. Personally, I think they are intelligent as far as non-human animals go. Many believe they can problem solve. I love the stories of particular bears that learned to recognize a particular model of car, and from that point became known as "Camaro Bear" or "VB Bug Bear" for their practice and expertise, before meeting their demise. Whether it is the bear's fault that such a situation was presented to it, is immaterial. Whether it is the bear's fault that it is not smart enough to reason out that one example is not proof that attacking humans is safe, is immaterial. I think the key is that bears don't really have a "moral compass" like we'd hope humans would. A bear is looking after its own interests, and frankly has no concept of "theft" or "injury". Sounds just like a typical mountain biker. They were made for each other! The fact is that an *intelligent* human *can* reason out the fact that the bear is now very likely to be a significant danger to humans. The only safe action for humans is to kill that particular bear. That I agree with. Bears are wonderful creatures, but a bear that has shown the propensity to injure people should be put down. It's something I would have wished had never gotten to that point. The same goes for mountain bikers, who have shown a propensity for irritating bears and other creatures. -- I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road construction.) Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of! http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande |
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#62
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Black bear attacks mountain biker in Washington State park
On Sep 14, 6:33 pm, Mike Vandeman wrote:
On Fri, 14 Sep 2007 13:20:24 -0800, (Floyd L. The fact is that an *intelligent* human *can* reason out the fact that the bear is now very likely to be a significant danger to humans. The only safe action for humans is to kill that particular bear. BS. If you are so smart, you should be able to figure out that ALL bears are dangerous, and so you should stay out of their habitat. DUH! Sure. Why didn't we already think of that? I guess we should all start by vacating all of Yosemite, Yellowstone. Move people out of their rural homes in Idaho, the Sierras, the Cascades, etc. I'll probably should never go to Lake Tahoe again, since "bears are dangerous". I guess the American Indians had it all wrong not getting the heck out of areas where bears lived, which includes the Berkeley Hills (where I live) and even as far as San Francisco in the early 1900's. Heck - several black bears came into Reno, Nevada on occasion and started raiding trash cans. I guess that's their habitat now. Better move people out. Seriously though (for people who can reason better than Vandeman) - bears aren't statistically dangerous. It's the rare case where bears have the potential to cause harm to people. Black bears have coexisted alongside people in North America for thousands of years, and there's not going to be some massive die-off because an animal is alongside a human presence. It's respect that should minimize potential harm to humans and bears, and not a separation of the habitats of humans and bears. Fact is - people are living and visiting in areas where bears live, and nothing is going to change that. Most of the time, it's not an issue. In the rare case where a bear does show the propensity to injure a person, I have no problem if it is put down. I respect bears, but I don't romanticize them as some noble creature that must be preserved at all costs. |
#63
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Black bear attacks mountain biker in Washington State park
On Sep 3, 9:23 am, Mike Vandeman wrote:
What crime did the bear commit, that it deserves to die?! She was only defending her cubs! Mike http://www.komotv.com/news/9538012.html: Black bear attacks bicyclist in park Story Published: Sep 2, 2007 at 4:14 PM PDT Story Updated: Sep 3, 2007 at 7:33 AM PDT By KOMO Staff Watch the story NEAR OLLALA, Wash. -- A man was attacked by a bear while mountain biking in the Banner Forest Heritage Park just before noon on Sunday, according to South Kitsap Fire and Rescue officials. Spokesman Ron Powers said a 51-year-old Port Orchard man was biking with his two dogs alongside him when the dogs ran ahead and around the bend, then started barking fiercely. The man turned the bend and saw the dogs were barking at a bear. Powers said the bear immediately charged at the man, who tried to use his bike to shield himself from the animal. But the bear managed to injure the man's arm, back, neck and ear before he was able to get back on his bike and ride away. Down the path, the injured man ran into other mountain bikers, who called 911. The man was conscious and alert when he was taken to St. Joseph Medical Center in Tacoma. The unidentified man is in serious condition, but is expected to recover. One of the man's dogs is still missing. It is not known whether the dog suffered injuries during the attack. The second dog is said to be OK. Officials evacuated the park and shut it down in order to search for the bear. Powers said if the bear is found, officials plan to kill it. Officials said crews will search through the night until the bear is found. Another bicyclist who was at the park on Sunday told authorities he saw mother bear and two cubs while riding on the trail. Powers said Sunday's attack is a freak accident, stating black bears rarely attack humans and, unless provoked or threatened, will run away. The man or the dogs may have appeared as a threat to the bear, who may have been protecting her cubs, Powers said. Area resident Teri Nelson agrees, while bears are not uncommon at the park, she didn't expect them to be aggressive. "Attacking somebody would make me have second thoughts about walking through this forest by myself," she said. "It's pretty scary." -- I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road construction.) Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of! http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande Hi, I'm new to this com method but have enjoyed the dialogue and wish to add something. My Standard Poodle and I were attacked near Ashland, OR on September 10th. I was returning from hiking a remote trail above my home and the dog, unleashed and about 15 yards ahead, evidently bumped into the bear and a short fight occurred. The dog has about 20 stictches in her left hind quarter but has pretty much recovered already. As the dog yelped and exited Manzanita trailside shrubs, she ran toward me with the bear, possibly a young male, re-focused on me, snarling and growling at my feet. I had hiking poles and was waving them at him and screaming loudly as he charged. When he got very close, I got my hiking poles in his face and continued yelling at the top of my lungs. The dog, somewhere behind me, was awol, just as well. I used the poles like the Kitsap fellow tried to use his bike. I'm 6' 3". After about a minute during which I thought there was a good chance of him biting and clawing me, he backed slowly down the trail and exited the way he came. I've hiked in bear habitat for forty years and seen bears. I have a healthy respect for them but have not been particularly fearful and take standard precautions. I believe this bear was surprised by my dog and protecting his territory. Folks like me have intruded on the bears over the years but I was within two miles of my home and I don't plan on staying inside. I have added bear spray to my shirt pocket and would have used it as he remained at arm's length for some time during the encounter. Charlie Kehoe, Ashland, OR |
#64
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Black bear attacks mountain biker in Washington State park
On Sun, 16 Sep 2007 10:00:22 -0700, y_p_w wrote:
On Sep 14, 6:33 pm, Mike Vandeman wrote: On Fri, 14 Sep 2007 13:20:24 -0800, (Floyd L. The fact is that an *intelligent* human *can* reason out the fact that the bear is now very likely to be a significant danger to humans. The only safe action for humans is to kill that particular bear. BS. If you are so smart, you should be able to figure out that ALL bears are dangerous, and so you should stay out of their habitat. DUH! Sure. Why didn't we already think of that? I guess we should all start by vacating all of Yosemite, Yellowstone. Move people out of their rural homes in Idaho, the Sierras, the Cascades, etc. I'll probably should never go to Lake Tahoe again, since "bears are dangerous". I guess the American Indians had it all wrong not getting the heck out of areas where bears lived, which includes the Berkeley Hills (where I live) and even as far as San Francisco in the early 1900's. Heck - several black bears came into Reno, Nevada on occasion and started raiding trash cans. I guess that's their habitat now. Better move people out. Seriously though (for people who can reason better than Vandeman) - bears aren't statistically dangerous. Then the people who were killed by bears aren't statistically dead! But they still aren't coming back.... It's the rare case where bears have the potential to cause harm to people. Black bears have coexisted alongside people in North America for thousands of years, That's nowhere long enough for the bears to evolve defenses against humans and their weapons. and there's not going to be some massive die-off because an animal is alongside a human presence. It's respect that should minimize potential harm to humans and bears, and not a separation of the habitats of humans and bears. Fact is - people are living and visiting in areas where bears live, and nothing is going to change that. Most of the time, it's not an issue. In the rare case where a bear does show the propensity to injure a person, I have no problem if it is put down. I respect bears, No, you don't. Yours is the same attitude that drove the California grizzly extinct: "Humans ALWAYS come first"! but I don't romanticize them as some noble creature that must be preserved at all costs. -- I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road construction.) Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of! http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande |
#66
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Black bear attacks mountain biker in Washington State park
On Sep 17, 8:12 am, Mike Vandeman wrote:
On Sun, 16 Sep 2007 10:00:22 wrote: On Sep 14, 6:33 pm, Mike Vandeman wrote: On Fri, 14 Sep 2007 13:20:24 -0800, (Floyd L. The fact is that an *intelligent* human *can* reason out the fact that the bear is now very likely to be a significant danger to humans. The only safe action for humans is to kill that particular bear. BS. If you are so smart, you should be able to figure out that ALL bears are dangerous, and so you should stay out of their habitat. DUH! Sure. Why didn't we already think of that? I guess we should all start by vacating all of Yosemite, Yellowstone. Move people out of their rural homes in Idaho, the Sierras, the Cascades, etc. I'll probably should never go to Lake Tahoe again, since "bears are dangerous". I guess the American Indians had it all wrong not getting the heck out of areas where bears lived, which includes the Berkeley Hills (where I live) and even as far as San Francisco in the early 1900's. Heck - several black bears came into Reno, Nevada on occasion and started raiding trash cans. I guess that's their habitat now. Better move people out. Seriously though (for people who can reason better than Vandeman) - bears aren't statistically dangerous. Then the people who were killed by bears aren't statistically dead! But they still aren't coming back.... The people killed by black bears are aberrations. Besides that, there's never been a recorded case of a black bear ever killing a person in California. If I were someone going backcountry camping or mountain biking in the Cascades, Sierras, or Rockies, I'd be more concerned with the possibility of a fatal traffic accident or carjacking than a bear attack. Dying from a heart attack is more likely. It's the rare case where bears have the potential to cause harm to people. Black bears have coexisted alongside people in North America for thousands of years, That's nowhere long enough for the bears to evolve defenses against humans and their weapons. Wha? I rolling my on my ass laughing so hard. and there's not going to be some massive die-off because an animal is alongside a human presence. It's respect that should minimize potential harm to humans and bears, and not a separation of the habitats of humans and bears. Fact is - people are living and visiting in areas where bears live, and nothing is going to change that. Most of the time, it's not an issue. In the rare case where a bear does show the propensity to injure a person, I have no problem if it is put down. I respect bears, No, you don't. Yours is the same attitude that drove the California grizzly extinct: "Humans ALWAYS come first"! No. The attitude that people had to hunt everything because there was supposedly an inexhaustible supply is what drove the California grizzly extinct. The American black bear is nowhere near going extinct. I'm not a big proponent of hunting for the sake of hunting. However - I have no problem if a bear with a recognized potential to harm humans is put down. I do think it's tragic when a bear is killed. If I recall correctly, the American Indian were known to "apologize" to their amimal bretheren for hunting them. |
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Black bear attacks mountain biker in Washington State park
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#68
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Black bear attacks mountain biker in Washington State park
AS IT TURNS OUT, black bears are attacking all sorts of people these days.
It seems the bears are responding to a shortage in the food chain that has resulted from several years of drought in the western states. |
#69
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Black bear attacks mountain biker in Washington State park
"Jeff Strickland" wrote in message news:4NBHi.2751$io2.196@trnddc06... AS IT TURNS OUT, black bears are attacking all sorts of people these days. Really? And I take it that you're basing this assumption on a couple of news reports which, by definition, report things that are unusual. Attacks by black bears are rare. Fatal attacks are even rarer still. Here in Maine, we have the largest black bear population east of the Mississippi. I don't recall ever hearing of even so much as an attack by a black bear here. I have had four black bear encounters since June, one only 25 feet from a mother bear and her cub. And every time the bear didn't make any attempt to attack. On three occasions, the bears took off. On one occasion, the bear just kept eating nuts, not minding the discharge of my flash. |
#70
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Black bear attacks mountain biker in Washington State park
On Sep 17, 11:40 am, y_p_w wrote:
[snip] The people killed by black bears are aberrations. I think you mean to say that the killing of people by black bears is an aberration, not that the people are... Oh. You were talking about Mickey. Socks |
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