Will e-bikes expand cycling?

On Sunday, November 3, 2019 at 11:44:38 AM UTC-8, sms wrote:
On 11/3/2019 5:10 AM,snip.com wrote:

snip

When I would sit on the sidewalk on a nice day along a popular route about 7 out of 10 non road bikes or ATB bikes that pass are electric assisted.. It is an epidemic here in the Netherlands. So to the question 'does E-bikes expand cycling?' Definitely!

Not an epidemic in the U.S., at least in my area. It's pretty flat here
so commuting with an e-bike, versus a regular bike, isn't going to
entice people out of their cars yet.

I see a few DIY conversions, some well-done, some awful.

One thing with the DIY conversions is that you want to avoid most of the
mid-drive conversions. Mid-drive e-bikes should have a frame designed to
mount the motor properly. You can buy these frames but the reality is
that by the time you buy the frame, the motor, and all the parts, you're
better off buying a complete Bafang mid-drive equipped bike, which are
available starting at around $1700. Two years ago I saw one good
retrofit design from Korea at Interbike but it never made it to production.

On Sunday, November 3, 2019 at 6:27:16 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 4 Nov 2019 01:45:33 -0000 (UTC), news18 snipm.au
wrote:

On Sat, 02 Nov 2019 11:37:59 -0700, pH wrote:


(Apparently electric motors like to spin fast and are more efficient at
high rpm.)

This is why I've only vaguely followed e-bikes for decades. They were of
no use to slow riders. The only result of riding slow would be to burn
out the batteries from high discharge rates.

Internal combustion vehicles suffer from the same malady. Thus the
"transmission" fitted to nearly all of them. Machinery using
electrical motors almost invariably use a speed reduction system of
some sort to reduce the high motor rpm to a lower speed that can be
utilized by the machinery.

The problem is solvable :-)
https://www.electricbike.com/tangent-ascent/
Or to be more accurate "the problem has been solved" see
https://electrek.co/2019/04/21/elect...ctric-bicycle/


Here's one way it was solved where the designer took a high-rpm drone or some such motor and geared it down with cycloid-gearing(?).
I think it's like a car odometer; the tenth's wheel goes around one full revolution and the one's digit wheel progresses 1/10 of a revolution...1 mile registered, and so on.

Here's the link:

https://www.electricbike.com/tangent-ascent/

pH in Aptos

It's been awhile since I actually spent some time on the eleectricbike website, I guess I should go there and see what's new.....I'm not in any danger of wanting anything on there yet!




snip
cheers,

John B.

snip

Here's the link:

https://www.electricbike.com/tangent-ascent/

pH in Aptos

It's been awhile since I actually spent some time on the eleectricbike website, I guess I should go there and see what's new.....I'm not in any danger of wanting anything on there yet!

snip

Just read the review above.

I *hate* it when writers use the term "RPMs".
Really? Revolutions per Minutes? How many minutes? What's wrong with one minute?

I am similarly annoyed when I see or hear "ATM machine" GAAAHHH!

My grammar-curmudgeonly-ness is showing again.

While I'm at it, I also hate the frequency with which I see people using "advocate for" in letters to the editor and news articles in general. Don't they (or their editors)know that the 'for' is already built into the word advocate!!??

pH in Aptos

off-topic rant over

Stop me before I post again.....

Okay, last time, then I'm going outside.

Here are *26* kits that were around in 2014.
There was a TdF rider who was accused of using a motor assist some years back, wasn't there? Kit Number 10 in this list could have been the culprit if true.

pH in Aptos

https://www.electricbike.com/mid-drive-kits/

On Monday, 4 November 2019 13:31:09 UTC-5, pH wrote:
snip

Here's the link:

https://www.electricbike.com/tangent-ascent/

pH in Aptos

It's been awhile since I actually spent some time on the eleectricbike website, I guess I should go there and see what's new.....I'm not in any danger of wanting anything on there yet!

snip

Just read the review above.

I *hate* it when writers use the term "RPMs".
Really? Revolutions per Minutes? How many minutes? What's wrong with one minute?

I am similarly annoyed when I see or hear "ATM machine" GAAAHHH!

My grammar-curmudgeonly-ness is showing again.

While I'm at it, I also hate the frequency with which I see people using "advocate for" in letters to the editor and news articles in general. Don't they (or their editors)know that the 'for' is already built into the word advocate!!??

pH in Aptos

off-topic rant over

You must hate it too when people say SIS indexing system or SIS index cable housing? VBEG LOL

Cheers

On Mon, 4 Nov 2019 11:11:35 -0000 (UTC), Duane
wrote:

Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Sunday, 3 November 2019 21:27:16 UTC-5, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 4 Nov 2019 01:45:33 -0000 (UTC), news18
wrote:

On Sat, 02 Nov 2019 11:37:59 -0700, wb6dwp wrote:


(Apparently electric motors like to spin fast and are more efficient at
high rpm.)

This is why I've only vaguely followed e-bikes for decades. They were of
no use to slow riders. The only result of riding slow would be to burn
out the batteries from high discharge rates.

Internal combustion vehicles suffer from the same malady. Thus the
"transmission" fitted to nearly all of them. Machinery using
electrical motors almost invariably use a speed reduction system of
some sort to reduce the high motor rpm to a lower speed that can be
utilized by the machinery.

The problem is solvable :-)

Or to be more accurate "the problem has been solved" see
https://electrek.co/2019/04/21/elect...ctric-bicycle/




The there are lots of great battery articles and howtos, etc. there as
well. The 21700 Tesla Li-ion cell appears to be making inroads along w/
the usual 18650 battery format technology.

Pricing will be interesting as a new local lithium miner has just moth
balled their mine claiming lack of demand. The last time I priced lithum
batteries for a project, it was $30K for lead and $300K for lithium, if i
could get them. The usual battery snake oil seems to have shifted to
thier sale now.


A few years ago during the latest gas crunch I thought I saw $5/gallon
gas on the horizon, so I bought a mid-drive kit from an Australian
company called "Elation".
250W motor, 10 AH 48V system. They have since gone out of business.

......
I find the 250watt motor will give me a steady 13-14mph or so on the
flat just for how it performs. The elation kit was throttle only, hot
pedal assist.

Over here, the mania, including bicycle bodies, screams pedelec only, but
a reading of the legislation does not say that. which is why eleation
might have shut up shop as the various states have now adopted the same
laws across tha nation,

(a lot of the European offerings also appear to be pedal assist only, no
throttle. Some have throttles also, I think..

The hint on pedelecs was to use a lower gear so the sensor that drove the
motor was fooled by the chain ring rotating. That was in reply to someone
who posted on a local forum that they had pushed(walked) a pedelec hire
trike for miles whenthe chain broke .He was told he should have just sat
on it and rotated the pedals.

That advice/hint would depend on the sensor still being based on crank
rotation and not some sensor pedalling

Anyway, lots of fun reading at "electricbike DOT com".

Sounds like a very useful site from your comments. Thanks.
--
cheers,

John B.

In keeping with the title of this thread. I don't think that E-bikes will
do much for bicycling per se. I DO think that E-bikes will do a LOT for
E-motor-biking though. Every E-bike Ive seen in my region was being used
as an Electric Motorbike NOT a bicycle.

Cheers


Yes but we’re we’re talking more about road bikes I think.

https://e2-sport.ca/product-category...bikes/?lang=en

People buying these are more likely sports cyclists trying to maintain
their levels.

That goes to show how unrealistic some people are. Put an electric
motor on the bike and gee! I'm just as fast as I was when I was
twenty...

Why not put on a bigger motor and Lo! One would be even faster than
they were at 20 :-) Or maybe an even larger motor and set records :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

On Sun, 03 Nov 2019 11:44:31 -0800, sms wrote:


One thing with the DIY conversions is that you want to avoid most of the
mid-drive conversions.

My understanding is that a mid drive gives you the possibility of using
gearing to match your riding style, whereas all the hub wheels suffer
from one size fits all problem and the physics can really chew your
batteries, aka low speed tends to drive them into stall and heavy current
conditions.

On Mon, 4 Nov 2019 06:51:46 -0800 (PST), jbeattie
wrote:

On Monday, November 4, 2019 at 3:11:46 AM UTC-8, Duane wrote:
Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Sunday, 3 November 2019 21:27:16 UTC-5, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 4 Nov 2019 01:45:33 -0000 (UTC), news18
wrote:

On Sat, 02 Nov 2019 11:37:59 -0700, wb6dwp wrote:


(Apparently electric motors like to spin fast and are more efficient at
high rpm.)

This is why I've only vaguely followed e-bikes for decades. They were of
no use to slow riders. The only result of riding slow would be to burn
out the batteries from high discharge rates.

Internal combustion vehicles suffer from the same malady. Thus the
"transmission" fitted to nearly all of them. Machinery using
electrical motors almost invariably use a speed reduction system of
some sort to reduce the high motor rpm to a lower speed that can be
utilized by the machinery.

The problem is solvable :-)

Or to be more accurate "the problem has been solved" see
https://electrek.co/2019/04/21/elect...ctric-bicycle/




The there are lots of great battery articles and howtos, etc. there as
well. The 21700 Tesla Li-ion cell appears to be making inroads along w/
the usual 18650 battery format technology.

Pricing will be interesting as a new local lithium miner has just moth
balled their mine claiming lack of demand. The last time I priced lithum
batteries for a project, it was $30K for lead and $300K for lithium, if i
could get them. The usual battery snake oil seems to have shifted to
thier sale now.


A few years ago during the latest gas crunch I thought I saw $5/gallon
gas on the horizon, so I bought a mid-drive kit from an Australian
company called "Elation".
250W motor, 10 AH 48V system. They have since gone out of business.

......
I find the 250watt motor will give me a steady 13-14mph or so on the
flat just for how it performs. The elation kit was throttle only, hot
pedal assist.

Over here, the mania, including bicycle bodies, screams pedelec only, but
a reading of the legislation does not say that. which is why eleation
might have shut up shop as the various states have now adopted the same
laws across tha nation,

(a lot of the European offerings also appear to be pedal assist only, no
throttle. Some have throttles also, I think..

The hint on pedelecs was to use a lower gear so the sensor that drove the
motor was fooled by the chain ring rotating. That was in reply to someone
who posted on a local forum that they had pushed(walked) a pedelec hire
trike for miles whenthe chain broke .He was told he should have just sat
on it and rotated the pedals.

That advice/hint would depend on the sensor still being based on crank
rotation and not some sensor pedalling

Anyway, lots of fun reading at "electricbike DOT com".

Sounds like a very useful site from your comments. Thanks.
--
cheers,

John B.

In keeping with the title of this thread. I don't think that E-bikes will
do much for bicycling per se. I DO think that E-bikes will do a LOT for
E-motor-biking though. Every E-bike Ive seen in my region was being used
as an Electric Motorbike NOT a bicycle.

Cheers


Yes but we’re we’re talking more about road bikes I think.

https://e2-sport.ca/product-category...bikes/?lang=en

People buying these are more likely sports cyclists trying to maintain
their levels.

But not trying to maintain the levels of their bank accounts. That Fantic Passo Giau -- the cheap one of the bunch at $9K -- has assist up to 16mph and weighs 30 pounds. It is basically a climbing motor.

-- Jay Beattie.

Well, Trek sells the Rail 9.9 for $11,000 but they only come in two
colors, Trek Black and Viper Red. :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

On Mon, 4 Nov 2019 10:07:23 -0500, Duane
wrote:

On 04/11/2019 9:51 a.m., jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, November 4, 2019 at 3:11:46 AM UTC-8, Duane wrote:
Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Sunday, 3 November 2019 21:27:16 UTC-5, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 4 Nov 2019 01:45:33 -0000 (UTC), news18
wrote:

On Sat, 02 Nov 2019 11:37:59 -0700, wb6dwp wrote:


(Apparently electric motors like to spin fast and are more efficient at
high rpm.)

This is why I've only vaguely followed e-bikes for decades. They were of
no use to slow riders. The only result of riding slow would be to burn
out the batteries from high discharge rates.

Internal combustion vehicles suffer from the same malady. Thus the
"transmission" fitted to nearly all of them. Machinery using
electrical motors almost invariably use a speed reduction system of
some sort to reduce the high motor rpm to a lower speed that can be
utilized by the machinery.

The problem is solvable :-)

Or to be more accurate "the problem has been solved" see
https://electrek.co/2019/04/21/elect...ctric-bicycle/




The there are lots of great battery articles and howtos, etc. there as
well. The 21700 Tesla Li-ion cell appears to be making inroads along w/
the usual 18650 battery format technology.

Pricing will be interesting as a new local lithium miner has just moth
balled their mine claiming lack of demand. The last time I priced lithum
batteries for a project, it was $30K for lead and $300K for lithium, if i
could get them. The usual battery snake oil seems to have shifted to
thier sale now.


A few years ago during the latest gas crunch I thought I saw $5/gallon
gas on the horizon, so I bought a mid-drive kit from an Australian
company called "Elation".
250W motor, 10 AH 48V system. They have since gone out of business.

......
I find the 250watt motor will give me a steady 13-14mph or so on the
flat just for how it performs. The elation kit was throttle only, hot
pedal assist.

Over here, the mania, including bicycle bodies, screams pedelec only, but
a reading of the legislation does not say that. which is why eleation
might have shut up shop as the various states have now adopted the same
laws across tha nation,

(a lot of the European offerings also appear to be pedal assist only, no
throttle. Some have throttles also, I think..

The hint on pedelecs was to use a lower gear so the sensor that drove the
motor was fooled by the chain ring rotating. That was in reply to someone
who posted on a local forum that they had pushed(walked) a pedelec hire
trike for miles whenthe chain broke .He was told he should have just sat
on it and rotated the pedals.

That advice/hint would depend on the sensor still being based on crank
rotation and not some sensor pedalling

Anyway, lots of fun reading at "electricbike DOT com".

Sounds like a very useful site from your comments. Thanks.
--
cheers,

John B.

In keeping with the title of this thread. I don't think that E-bikes will
do much for bicycling per se. I DO think that E-bikes will do a LOT for
E-motor-biking though. Every E-bike Ive seen in my region was being used
as an Electric Motorbike NOT a bicycle.

Cheers


Yes but we’re we’re talking more about road bikes I think.

https://e2-sport.ca/product-category...bikes/?lang=en

People buying these are more likely sports cyclists trying to maintain
their levels.

But not trying to maintain the levels of their bank accounts. That Fantic Passo Giau -- the cheap one of the bunch at $9K -- has assist up to 16mph and weighs 30 pounds. It is basically a climbing motor.

-- Jay Beattie.


I know, the price is ridiculous. But look at the other two. Both more
expensive and sold out.

Perusing the Trek site it appears that recreational cycling is NOT a
sport for the impoverished :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

On Mon, 04 Nov 2019 10:31:06 -0800, pH wrote:

snip

Here's the link:

https://www.electricbike.com/tangent-ascent/

pH in Aptos

It's been awhile since I actually spent some time on the eleectricbike
website, I guess I should go there and see what's new.....I'm not in
any danger of wanting anything on there yet!

snip

Just read the review above.

I *hate* it when writers use the term "RPMs".

Err, doesn't that expand to RevoltionS(plural) Per Minute(i.e one)?

Anything else would have to be explicity stated.