Will e-bikes expand cycling?

John B. wrote:
On Tue, 5 Nov 2019 03:34:13 -0000 (UTC), Duane
wrote:

John B. wrote:
On Mon, 4 Nov 2019 10:07:23 -0500, Duane
wrote:

On 04/11/2019 9:51 a.m., jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, November 4, 2019 at 3:11:46 AM UTC-8, Duane wrote:
Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Sunday, 3 November 2019 21:27:16 UTC-5, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 4 Nov 2019 01:45:33 -0000 (UTC), news18
wrote:

On Sat, 02 Nov 2019 11:37:59 -0700, wb6dwp wrote:


(Apparently electric motors like to spin fast and are more efficient at
high rpm.)

This is why I've only vaguely followed e-bikes for decades. They were of
no use to slow riders. The only result of riding slow would be to burn
out the batteries from high discharge rates.

Internal combustion vehicles suffer from the same malady. Thus the
"transmission" fitted to nearly all of them. Machinery using
electrical motors almost invariably use a speed reduction system of
some sort to reduce the high motor rpm to a lower speed that can be
utilized by the machinery.

The problem is solvable :-)

Or to be more accurate "the problem has been solved" see
https://electrek.co/2019/04/21/elect...ctric-bicycle/




The there are lots of great battery articles and howtos, etc. there as
well. The 21700 Tesla Li-ion cell appears to be making inroads along w/
the usual 18650 battery format technology.

Pricing will be interesting as a new local lithium miner has just moth
balled their mine claiming lack of demand. The last time I priced lithum
batteries for a project, it was $30K for lead and $300K for lithium, if i
could get them. The usual battery snake oil seems to have shifted to
thier sale now.


A few years ago during the latest gas crunch I thought I saw $5/gallon
gas on the horizon, so I bought a mid-drive kit from an Australian
company called "Elation".
250W motor, 10 AH 48V system. They have since gone out of business.

......
I find the 250watt motor will give me a steady 13-14mph or so on the
flat just for how it performs. The elation kit was throttle only, hot
pedal assist.

Over here, the mania, including bicycle bodies, screams pedelec only, but
a reading of the legislation does not say that. which is why eleation
might have shut up shop as the various states have now adopted the same
laws across tha nation,

(a lot of the European offerings also appear to be pedal assist only, no
throttle. Some have throttles also, I think..

The hint on pedelecs was to use a lower gear so the sensor that drove the
motor was fooled by the chain ring rotating. That was in reply to someone
who posted on a local forum that they had pushed(walked) a pedelec hire
trike for miles whenthe chain broke .He was told he should have just sat
on it and rotated the pedals.

That advice/hint would depend on the sensor still being based on crank
rotation and not some sensor pedalling

Anyway, lots of fun reading at "electricbike DOT com".

Sounds like a very useful site from your comments. Thanks.
--
cheers,

John B.

In keeping with the title of this thread. I don't think that E-bikes will
do much for bicycling per se. I DO think that E-bikes will do a LOT for
E-motor-biking though. Every E-bike Ive seen in my region was being used
as an Electric Motorbike NOT a bicycle.

Cheers


Yes but we’re we’re talking more about road bikes I think.

https://e2-sport.ca/product-category...bikes/?lang=en

People buying these are more likely sports cyclists trying to maintain
their levels.

But not trying to maintain the levels of their bank accounts. That
Fantic Passo Giau -- the cheap one of the bunch at $9K -- has assist up
to 16mph and weighs 30 pounds. It is basically a climbing motor.

-- Jay Beattie.


I know, the price is ridiculous. But look at the other two. Both more
expensive and sold out.

Perusing the Trek site it appears that recreational cycling is NOT a
sport for the impoverished :-)
--
cheers,

John B.



I think you confuse recreation and sport.

I don't think so. After all a sport can be a recreation. Think all the
millions that play golf, the majority of whom can't break 100.
--
cheers,

John B.



You just made my point.

On Tuesday, November 5, 2019 at 11:24:42 AM UTC, Duane wrote:

Their levels, to me meant last year’s levels before that surgery or
whatever.

Yeah, you'd have to be really foolish to try at 70 for the level of energy and endurance you had at 20. In the arts we have lots of people who're so fashionable that at 70 they're trendier than they were at 20. I feel sorry for them, but at least they're not hurrying their end by strenuous effort beyond the capability of their hearts.

Jeez I know a lot of people around 70 that are in better shape than that.

When I was 20, 70 was unimaginably old, and my doctors took turns to tell me that if I didn't change my lifestyle (then not even a word, but you know what I mean) I would be dead before I was thirty. Now bicycle groups are overrun with people pushing sixty or seventy or over, still training, or undertaking bicycle tours in distant, dusty places. Man (and especially women, included) is infinitely adaptable.

Andre Jute
Andre's World Tour of his Little Patch of West Cork

John B. wrote:
On Mon, 4 Nov 2019 22:51:30 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 11/4/2019 9:52 PM, news18 wrote:
On Tue, 05 Nov 2019 07:06:34 +0700, John B. wrote:

On Mon, 4 Nov 2019 10:07:23 -0500, Duane
wrote:

On 04/11/2019 9:51 a.m., jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, November 4, 2019 at 3:11:46 AM UTC-8, Duane wrote:
Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Sunday, 3 November 2019 21:27:16 UTC-5, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 4 Nov 2019 01:45:33 -0000 (UTC), news18
wrote:

On Sat, 02 Nov 2019 11:37:59 -0700, wb6dwp wrote:


(Apparently electric motors like to spin fast and are more
efficient at high rpm.)

This is why I've only vaguely followed e-bikes for decades. They
were of no use to slow riders. The only result of riding slow
would be to burn out the batteries from high discharge rates.

Internal combustion vehicles suffer from the same malady. Thus the
"transmission" fitted to nearly all of them. Machinery using
electrical motors almost invariably use a speed reduction system of
some sort to reduce the high motor rpm to a lower speed that can be
utilized by the machinery.

The problem is solvable :-)

Or to be more accurate "the problem has been solved" see
https://electrek.co/2019/04/21/elect...o-go-electric-
bicycle/




The there are lots of great battery articles and howtos, etc.
there as well. The 21700 Tesla Li-ion cell appears to be making
inroads along w/
the usual 18650 battery format technology.

Pricing will be interesting as a new local lithium miner has just
moth balled their mine claiming lack of demand. The last time I
priced lithum batteries for a project, it was $30K for lead and
$300K for lithium, if i could get them. The usual battery snake
oil seems to have shifted to thier sale now.


A few years ago during the latest gas crunch I thought I saw
$5/gallon gas on the horizon, so I bought a mid-drive kit from an
Australian company called "Elation".
250W motor, 10 AH 48V system. They have since gone out of
business.

......
I find the 250watt motor will give me a steady 13-14mph or so on
the flat just for how it performs. The elation kit was throttle
only, hot pedal assist.

Over here, the mania, including bicycle bodies, screams pedelec
only, but a reading of the legislation does not say that. which is
why eleation might have shut up shop as the various states have
now adopted the same laws across tha nation,

(a lot of the European offerings also appear to be pedal assist
only, no throttle. Some have throttles also, I think..

The hint on pedelecs was to use a lower gear so the sensor that
drove the motor was fooled by the chain ring rotating. That was in
reply to someone who posted on a local forum that they had
pushed(walked) a pedelec hire trike for miles whenthe chain broke
.He was told he should have just sat on it and rotated the pedals.

That advice/hint would depend on the sensor still being based on
crank rotation and not some sensor pedalling

Anyway, lots of fun reading at "electricbike DOT com".

Sounds like a very useful site from your comments. Thanks.
--
cheers,

John B.

In keeping with the title of this thread. I don't think that E-bikes
will do much for bicycling per se. I DO think that E-bikes will do a
LOT for E-motor-biking though. Every E-bike Ive seen in my region
was being used as an Electric Motorbike NOT a bicycle.

Cheers


Yes but we?re we?re talking more about road bikes I think.

https://e2-sport.ca/product-category...electric-road-
bikes/?lang=en

People buying these are more likely sports cyclists trying to
maintain their levels.

But not trying to maintain the levels of their bank accounts. That
Fantic Passo Giau -- the cheap one of the bunch at $9K -- has assist
up to 16mph and weighs 30 pounds. It is basically a climbing motor.

-- Jay Beattie.


I know, the price is ridiculous. But look at the other two. Both more
expensive and sold out.

Perusing the Trek site it appears that recreational cycling is NOT a
sport for the impoverished :-)

It hasn't been for a while. In the 70's, so long as the wheels went round
and stayed that shape, you could go on a ride and enjoy yourself.

Now it is mostly about buying the latest useless trash to look good and
making sure you stay "connected" to plaster selfies of everything you
do, look at, touch, blah, blah, blah.

_Bicycling_ magazine is the most popular American cycling magazine.
There are good reasons it's mocked as _Buycycling_.

If you look at their web page, way down at the bottom there is a
notice: "Bicycling participates in various affiliate marketing
programs, which means we may get paid commissions on editorially
chosen products purchased through our links to retailer sites."

Which might make one a bit skeptical about the article titled "The
best new whatchamacallit for your bike" :-)
--
cheers,

John B.


If I saw even one review that ended with “This product is a piece of crap
and we’re not sure why anyone would buy it�, I would feel a lot better
about the rest of the reviews.

On 05/11/2019 8:05 a.m., Andre Jute wrote:
On Tuesday, November 5, 2019 at 11:24:42 AM UTC, Duane wrote:

Their levels, to me meant last year’s levels before that surgery or
whatever.

Yeah, you'd have to be really foolish to try at 70 for the level of energy and endurance you had at 20. In the arts we have lots of people who're so fashionable that at 70 they're trendier than they were at 20. I feel sorry for them, but at least they're not hurrying their end by strenuous effort beyond the capability of their hearts.


Some people find it easier to argue against extremes rather than norms.
I think it's the logical fallacy called "False Dichotomy".


Jeez I know a lot of people around 70 that are in better shape than that.

When I was 20, 70 was unimaginably old, and my doctors took turns to tell me that if I didn't change my lifestyle (then not even a word, but you know what I mean) I would be dead before I was thirty. Now bicycle groups are overrun with people pushing sixty or seventy or over, still training, or undertaking bicycle tours in distant, dusty places. Man (and especially women, included) is infinitely adaptable.


Yep.

Andre Jute
Andre's World Tour of his Little Patch of West Cork

On 11/4/2019 9:17 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/4/2019 1:44 PM, pH wrote:
Stop me before I post again.....

Okay, last time, then I'm going outside.

Here are *26* kits that were around in 2014.
There was a TdF rider who was accused of using a motor
assist some years back, wasn't there? Kit Number 10 in
this list could have been the culprit if true.

pH in Aptos

https://www.electricbike.com/mid-drive-kits/

I'm curious about how the Yellow Jersey bike shop is
responding to this ebike trend.

Andy?



We walked away a few years ago when we were unable to
provide any service beyond "replace entire system" to
customers with products we sold. There's a current front
page article in our industry news on that very subject:

https://read.dmtmag.com/i/1179600-no...ew s+Audience

Lower right, "E-bike Service Can Mean Saying 'No' "

This situation may well change, and our opinion will change,
but despite the hype the product is generally not ready for
average consumers IMHO.

We're very good with mechanical, machining, welding/brazing
processes and electromechanical systems such as classic
autos and motorcycles. E-bike troubles are often not in
those realms, rather software, sensors, semiconductor
circuits, motor controller systems, batteries and
connectors/fixtures of the lowest orders.

It's one thing for the importer to reply in text that you
have to replace the entire system. It's quite another to
look a man in the eye and say that.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Friday, November 1, 2019 at 8:49:14 PM UTC-7, pH wrote:
On Tuesday, October 29, 2019 at 8:35:17 PM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
On Tuesday, October 29, 2019 at 10:46:36 PM UTC, AMuzi wrote:

There just are fewer electric bicycles. So far...

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

I'm no longer so sure. I've of course heard all the talk of the coming e-bike revolution, but my own bike is now ten years old, and in that time I've seen precisely three e-bikes beside my own in a catchment are of 40-50,000 people. It is as well to describe them:

snip

Andre Jute
So how come I can't see the revolution I'm supposed to be leading?

Here in the Santa Cruz area I am seeing many more electric assist bikes.
I commuted to work for 15 years and saw virtually no electric bikes during the time...the occasional Currie-cycle.
I think what doomed those was the lead-acid technology. It would not take long for a non-battery savvy person to kill a lead acid battery.

The Li ion revolution seems to have saved the day.
So far I'm seeing bottom-bracket "pods" more than hub motors by about a 10:1 ratio.
I don't know the wattage of these things (I think that Bosch and Yamaha are the two main players...Muzi help me out here it there are popular others), but the 750 watt motor of your acquaintance/neighbor seems like it would be more than adequate, even for a Clydesdale as me.

Short answer: Lots around Santa Cruz so far. We'll see how they hold up over time.

pH

I thought that they would be a passing fad - after all, they have all the weather disadvantages of a bike plus you have to be careful not to allow them to get stolen and the batteries do have to be replaced at a frightful expense.

But judging from the number of electric scooters I'm seeing I suppose the technology has advanced to the point that we will be seeing 3 wheel electric bikes with full carbon covers so that the weather problem disappears. Of course the reckless driver problem does not

On Friday, November 1, 2019 at 7:31:57 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Wednesday, October 30, 2019 at 6:03:55 PM UTC-4, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, October 30, 2019 at 2:33:10 PM UTC-7, Zen Cycle wrote:
On Wednesday, October 30, 2019 at 2:12:01 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Wednesday, October 30, 2019 at 10:49:21 AM UTC-4, Tom Kunich wrote

Now what we really need is a serious Congressional investigation into why NASA has been falsifying the temperature records. This is now to the point that they should criminally charge these people with lying under the cover of authority.

Get on it, Tom! Stop wasting your time here. Run for congress!

But the problem is a lot bigger than you've stated. It's not just NASA falsifying
data. There are dozens of countries in on the scam! They've even taking to
melting glaciers (doubtlessly using top secret technology) to convince people
of this global scam.

The world needs you to save us! Stop posting on r.b.tech about it - get out and
save the world!

- Frank Krygowski

And while he's at it may be he can convince jute to write something a publisher might be interested rather than trolling a news group every day.

Or maybe I can just simply note that not one single climate prediction has been accurate for over 40 years.

No, no, you still don't get it. Don't post that here. Put it on billboards.
Make it your campaign slogan. Broadcast it on the TV, radio, internet, and in
print.

Get out there and save the world from those who would save the world! (And
let us talk about bicycles.)

- Frank Krygowski

Crying Franky Boy because you simply have no legs to stand on? You become increasingly disjointed. Are you worried that your view of the universe in which passing trucks trim the branches so that you don't have to worry about them was attacked by the presence of a large heavy limb in the bike lane so terrifying that you can do nothing else but deny it? That the UCI who actually have nothing else to do actually replied to a letter? Your head must be spinning at how important you are and how wrong you have been about everything else in your life and the only way to forestall a heart attack is simply to deny any of it occurred.

On Monday, November 4, 2019 at 8:35:45 AM UTC-8, sms wrote:
On 11/4/2019 6:51 AM, jbeattie wrote:

snip

But not trying to maintain the levels of their bank accounts. That Fantic Passo Giau -- the cheap one of the bunch at $9K -- has assist up to 16mph and weighs 30 pounds. It is basically a climbing motor.

I am most impressed with the Ampler eBikes. They no longer sell in the
U.S. due to restrictions on the shipment of lithium batteries. Still
costly, but nothing like $9K. Why would an e-Bike designer not want to
use all the otherwise wasted space inside the frame tubes for batteries?

https://amplerbikes.com/en/e-bikes

All they would have to do is include an empty case. As Tesla does you can build the case to accept AA rechargeable lithium-ion batteries and install them at the dealer with American batteries.

On Monday, November 4, 2019 at 5:52:29 PM UTC, pH wrote:
On Saturday, November 2, 2019 at 2:15:08 PM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
On Saturday, November 2, 2019 at 6:38:01 PM UTC, wrote:

A few years ago during the latest gas crunch I thought I saw $5/gallon gas on the horizon, so I bought a mid-drive kit from an Australian company called "Elation".
250W motor, 10 AH 48V system. They have since gone out of business.

My thinking was that the wife would be getting all the gas money and you-know-who would be the one stuck biking to work, including our exceptionally difficult out-of-code 1/4 long hill back home...so I thought a motor assist at the end of a long work day might be nice. (It was still a no-fun zig-zag up the hill in 1st gear despite the motor.)

This is why I'm so keen on a motor with hefty torque.

Thanks for the link, which I've saved to read on my treadmill (I live in Ireland where it is often wet and cold in the winter).

Andre Jute
$A5 per gallon of petrol -- we should be so lucky!

If you need lots of torque, Lunacycles makes a 40T and even a 30T chainring for your Bafang.
Here's a link to one of their motor kits, scroll down and look on the right for chainring options.
If I ever try another motor, I think I'll go Bafang. Hopefully that won't be for years if ever. But there are *lots* of them out there to choose from.

pH

Here's the link.....
https://lunacycle.com/bafang-bbshd-1000w-middrive-kit/

Apologies for the delay in replying. I saved the link to look into and got distracted by a discussion of tilting motorcycle (and bicycle) three wheelers on another forum.

The basic principle around which I developed my bike, a Utopia Kranich which was awesome even in the ex-factory trim -- see http://coolmainpress.com/BICYCLING.html -- is zero servicing. I've now got it down to five minutes a year to change the gearbox oil and give one shot of grease to its click box.. That's it. I don't clean the chain because I run it on the factory lube for its entire life, inside a Hebie Chainglider. A description of how I arrived there is at http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=6813.0
The Chainglider and the Rohloff between them determine which chainring tooth counts I can choose because the Chainglider is available in sizes to fit only certain tooth counts and the Rohloff requires a 54mm chainline to within 1mm, so the chainring must be dished to fit over the Bafang motor to make the chainline. In addition, after a couple of heart surgeries, I'd been building up my strength by almost imperceptible steps to where I could easily fit a bigger chainring than before the surgeries, so I did.

I like that 1000W motor, but then I'm an old (motor) racer. However, in inexperienced hands, I think that particularly the Bafang motor, which in each incarnation has more torque than the competition, would be dangerous in mixed company. The 750W Bafang motor this fellow let me try within its limits accelerated as fast, subjectively of course, as the smaller of the Laverda I had back in the day, and that was known to be lively for a 350cc bike. Up to 15 or 20mph the instant grunt of the battery might even make it faster than the biggest Laverda of the era, which I also had, a frightening bike if one were careless with the throttle.

That 1000W Bafang motor will make Schwalbe very happy: it's bound to be a tyre shredder.

Andre Jute
Nostalgic for days of power and glory

On Tuesday, November 5, 2019 at 7:46:26 AM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:

I like that 1000W motor, but then I'm an old (motor) racer. However, in inexperienced hands, I think that particularly the Bafang motor, which in each incarnation has more torque than the competition, would be dangerous in mixed company. The 750W Bafang motor this fellow let me try within its limits accelerated as fast, subjectively of course, as the smaller of the Laverda I had back in the day, and that was known to be lively for a 350cc bike. Up to 15 or 20mph the instant grunt of the battery might even make it faster than the biggest Laverda of the era, which I also had, a frightening bike if one were careless with the throttle.

That 1000W Bafang motor will make Schwalbe very happy: it's bound to be a tyre shredder.

Andre, you know that this is going to elicit negative responses from the know-nothing Quadropoedics.