Need advice on bottom bracket repair

On Mon, 9 Jan 2017 22:17:31 +0000 (UTC), Theodore Heise
wrote:

On Sun, 8 Jan 2017 14:59:56 -0800 (PST),
DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH wrote:
On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 12:59:14 PM UTC-5, Theodore Heise wrote:
On Sun, 8 Jan 2017 08:56:40 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

Ted, I don't quite follow. You are talking about using a
pin spanner and then say that you need to get the
adjustable cup off first. Isn't that what we were talking
about? The lock nut on the adjustable side and the fixed
cup do not use pin spanners as far as I know.

Sorry. I have the lock ring off on the left, non-drive side,
and am left with an adjustable cup that will only turn
partway. The fixed cup is still in place too (on the other
side), so the spindle is in place and blocks putting in the
bolt and nut that Sheldon describes.

For what it's worth, the fixed cup also seems to be pretty
stuck. It's an aluminum frame, so presumably the shell is
aluminum too and there may be some corrosion in the interface
between the two different metals of the shell and the cups?

if you search on aluminum/steel frame/shells/cups install or
remove there should be an avalanche of umbrage.

if your system shows white material in joints then poss an
ionic binding occurred between steel and aluminum. Andy Muzi is
an expert on this.

Blaster does not dissolve the white material. Uneeda torch and
another pin tool.

expanding aluminum with torch or heat gun will remove the cup.

Okay, I will try heating too.

You might want to know that as a general statement aluminum bike
frames are heat treated after welding and heating aluminum to
approximately 300 - 400 degrees C will anneal it.

As an aside, probably because of the ability of aluminum to rapidly
transfer heat, my experience in heating cylindrical objects to enlarge
them has been spotty at best. If you heat the cylinder in an oven so
that the entire devise is an equal temperature then it will enlarge to
a rather surprising amount. If you try the same thing with a torch it
doesn't work so well as, I suspect, while you are heating one side the
other side is merrily transferring heat to the air or supporting
structure so what you end up with isn't a circle but an oval.
--
cheers,

John B.

On 1/9/2017 7:44 PM, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 9 Jan 2017 22:17:31 +0000 (UTC), Theodore Heise
wrote:

On Sun, 8 Jan 2017 14:59:56 -0800 (PST),
DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH wrote:
On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 12:59:14 PM UTC-5, Theodore Heise wrote:
On Sun, 8 Jan 2017 08:56:40 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

Ted, I don't quite follow. You are talking about using a
pin spanner and then say that you need to get the
adjustable cup off first. Isn't that what we were talking
about? The lock nut on the adjustable side and the fixed
cup do not use pin spanners as far as I know.

Sorry. I have the lock ring off on the left, non-drive side,
and am left with an adjustable cup that will only turn
partway. The fixed cup is still in place too (on the other
side), so the spindle is in place and blocks putting in the
bolt and nut that Sheldon describes.

For what it's worth, the fixed cup also seems to be pretty
stuck. It's an aluminum frame, so presumably the shell is
aluminum too and there may be some corrosion in the interface
between the two different metals of the shell and the cups?

if you search on aluminum/steel frame/shells/cups install or
remove there should be an avalanche of umbrage.

if your system shows white material in joints then poss an
ionic binding occurred between steel and aluminum. Andy Muzi is
an expert on this.

Blaster does not dissolve the white material. Uneeda torch and
another pin tool.

expanding aluminum with torch or heat gun will remove the cup.

Okay, I will try heating too.

You might want to know that as a general statement aluminum bike
frames are heat treated after welding and heating aluminum to
approximately 300 - 400 degrees C will anneal it.

As an aside, probably because of the ability of aluminum to rapidly
transfer heat, my experience in heating cylindrical objects to enlarge
them has been spotty at best. If you heat the cylinder in an oven so
that the entire devise is an equal temperature then it will enlarge to
a rather surprising amount. If you try the same thing with a torch it
doesn't work so well as, I suspect, while you are heating one side the
other side is merrily transferring heat to the air or supporting
structure so what you end up with isn't a circle but an oval.


No argument with any of that, good advise.

Moderate (120~150F) heat from a heat gun seems to help
penetrants. Lighting the work on fire may have entertainment
value, but probably won't help with the actual mission.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Monday, January 9, 2017 at 5:44:20 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 9 Jan 2017 22:17:31 +0000 (UTC), Theodore Heise
wrote:

On Sun, 8 Jan 2017 14:59:56 -0800 (PST),
DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH wrote:
On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 12:59:14 PM UTC-5, Theodore Heise wrote:
On Sun, 8 Jan 2017 08:56:40 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

Ted, I don't quite follow. You are talking about using a
pin spanner and then say that you need to get the
adjustable cup off first. Isn't that what we were talking
about? The lock nut on the adjustable side and the fixed
cup do not use pin spanners as far as I know.

Sorry. I have the lock ring off on the left, non-drive side,
and am left with an adjustable cup that will only turn
partway. The fixed cup is still in place too (on the other
side), so the spindle is in place and blocks putting in the
bolt and nut that Sheldon describes.

For what it's worth, the fixed cup also seems to be pretty
stuck. It's an aluminum frame, so presumably the shell is
aluminum too and there may be some corrosion in the interface
between the two different metals of the shell and the cups?

if you search on aluminum/steel frame/shells/cups install or
remove there should be an avalanche of umbrage.

if your system shows white material in joints then poss an
ionic binding occurred between steel and aluminum. Andy Muzi is
an expert on this.

Blaster does not dissolve the white material. Uneeda torch and
another pin tool.

expanding aluminum with torch or heat gun will remove the cup.

Okay, I will try heating too.

You might want to know that as a general statement aluminum bike
frames are heat treated after welding and heating aluminum to
approximately 300 - 400 degrees C will anneal it.

As an aside, probably because of the ability of aluminum to rapidly
transfer heat, my experience in heating cylindrical objects to enlarge
them has been spotty at best. If you heat the cylinder in an oven so
that the entire devise is an equal temperature then it will enlarge to
a rather surprising amount. If you try the same thing with a torch it
doesn't work so well as, I suspect, while you are heating one side the
other side is merrily transferring heat to the air or supporting
structure so what you end up with isn't a circle but an oval.
--
cheers,

John B.

In a surprising gesture I am in complete agreement with John.

On Monday, January 9, 2017 at 5:48:46 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/9/2017 7:44 PM, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 9 Jan 2017 22:17:31 +0000 (UTC), Theodore Heise
wrote:

On Sun, 8 Jan 2017 14:59:56 -0800 (PST),
DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH wrote:
On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 12:59:14 PM UTC-5, Theodore Heise wrote:
On Sun, 8 Jan 2017 08:56:40 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

Ted, I don't quite follow. You are talking about using a
pin spanner and then say that you need to get the
adjustable cup off first. Isn't that what we were talking
about? The lock nut on the adjustable side and the fixed
cup do not use pin spanners as far as I know.

Sorry. I have the lock ring off on the left, non-drive side,
and am left with an adjustable cup that will only turn
partway. The fixed cup is still in place too (on the other
side), so the spindle is in place and blocks putting in the
bolt and nut that Sheldon describes.

For what it's worth, the fixed cup also seems to be pretty
stuck. It's an aluminum frame, so presumably the shell is
aluminum too and there may be some corrosion in the interface
between the two different metals of the shell and the cups?

if you search on aluminum/steel frame/shells/cups install or
remove there should be an avalanche of umbrage.

if your system shows white material in joints then poss an
ionic binding occurred between steel and aluminum. Andy Muzi is
an expert on this.

Blaster does not dissolve the white material. Uneeda torch and
another pin tool.

expanding aluminum with torch or heat gun will remove the cup.

Okay, I will try heating too.

You might want to know that as a general statement aluminum bike
frames are heat treated after welding and heating aluminum to
approximately 300 - 400 degrees C will anneal it.

As an aside, probably because of the ability of aluminum to rapidly
transfer heat, my experience in heating cylindrical objects to enlarge
them has been spotty at best. If you heat the cylinder in an oven so
that the entire devise is an equal temperature then it will enlarge to
a rather surprising amount. If you try the same thing with a torch it
doesn't work so well as, I suspect, while you are heating one side the
other side is merrily transferring heat to the air or supporting
structure so what you end up with isn't a circle but an oval.


No argument with any of that, good advise.

Moderate (120~150F) heat from a heat gun seems to help
penetrants. Lighting the work on fire may have entertainment
value, but probably won't help with the actual mission.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

I am presently visualizing poor Ted stand back as his expensive Rodriguez goes up in flames.

On Mon, 9 Jan 2017 22:24:41 -0000, "Benderthe.evilrobot"
wrote:

"Theodore Heise" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 08 Jan 2017 17:01:01 -0800,
Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 08 Jan 2017 16:31:15 -0800, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:
(...)

Yet another untested idea...

Use an induction heater on the steel cup.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyZEaPQinO0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJElT9xK3bk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uimEZKrVNO0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3u1IBgefNDs [1]
http://www.theinductor.com
You'll need various size coils for different bolts, cups, seat posts,
etc. There are induction heater kits on eBay:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1000W-ZVS-Low-Voltage-Induction-Heating-Board-Module-Flyback-Heater-Brass-Coil-/282317713643
The steel cup gets hot and not so much the rest of the bicycle,
including the aluminum bottom bracket which sucks away much of the
heat. However, you can get the steel hot enough to melt the aluminum,
so please use an IR thermometer to keep the temperatures down.
Aluminum melts at 660C.

Yikes!

Is there a problem?

An electric heat gun is safer than a blowtorch - but I think you still have
to be a bit careful.

The heavy duty paint strippers aren't too bad, but some heat guns are
designed for lighting solid fuel cooking ranges.

The problem with external heat generators is that the heat affected
zone is rather large and will surely creep into undesirable areas,
such as painted parts. With an induction heater, you only heat the
steel parts. Aluminum only gets hot as far as what it conducts away
from the steel.

If you happen to have an induction cooktop stove, you can demonstrate
how this works. Put a steel pot on top of the induction heater, and
only the steel will get hot. Put an aluminum, glass, or copper pan on
the stovetop, and they stay cold. Toss a coin with stainless
(magnetic stainless mostly works, non-magnetic does not).

It's the same with using an induction heater on the bottom bracket.
The steel components get hot, while the aluminum bottom bracket and
frame do not.

I don't propose heating the cup to red hot:
http://www.hearth.com/talk/attachments/metal-color-temp-chart-png.100306/
which is why I suggested an IR thermometer be used to monitor the
temperature. Melting the threads in order to release the cup would be
rather counter productive. The problem is that I don't know what
temperature is appropriate, so there will need to be some trial and
error. As always, one needs to sacrifice an old bicycle frame in the
interest of moving cycling technology forward.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Mon, 9 Jan 2017 08:06:28 -0800 (PST), DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH
wrote:

divinity deleted willya get a propane torch or heat gun .....

Keep thy flames away from my paint job.

we went thru this a few months back.

My short term memory is even shorter. What were we discussing?

the white ionic exchange compound does not dissolve in
organic solvents caws the white isnot organic ! eyeyhahhhahahhah ....

Huh? Never mind.

I dunno what yawl doing dumping acetone into petroleum
products ....cretins.

It's called thinning.

acetone is here to emulsify petroleum products.

My favorite emulsion is salad dressing.

Lieb...what's the home brew biggie ? chlorine and ?
you pour it into the john n the bowl explodes .....

Toilet bowl cleaner and anything with chlorine in it, such as chlorine
bleach (Clorox). It doesn't explode. Instead, you recreate WWI in
your bathroom and die from chlorine gas inhalation. There are other
ways to screw up with household chemicals:
"16 Common Product Combinations You Should Never Mix"
http://www.hearth.com/talk/attachments/metal-color-temp-chart-png.100306/

That which doesn't kill you, will probably make you rather sick.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Mon, 09 Jan 2017 19:48:48 -0600, AMuzi wrote:

On 1/9/2017 7:44 PM, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 9 Jan 2017 22:17:31 +0000 (UTC), Theodore Heise
wrote:

On Sun, 8 Jan 2017 14:59:56 -0800 (PST),
DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH wrote:
On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 12:59:14 PM UTC-5, Theodore Heise wrote:
On Sun, 8 Jan 2017 08:56:40 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

Ted, I don't quite follow. You are talking about using a
pin spanner and then say that you need to get the
adjustable cup off first. Isn't that what we were talking
about? The lock nut on the adjustable side and the fixed
cup do not use pin spanners as far as I know.

Sorry. I have the lock ring off on the left, non-drive side,
and am left with an adjustable cup that will only turn
partway. The fixed cup is still in place too (on the other
side), so the spindle is in place and blocks putting in the
bolt and nut that Sheldon describes.

For what it's worth, the fixed cup also seems to be pretty
stuck. It's an aluminum frame, so presumably the shell is
aluminum too and there may be some corrosion in the interface
between the two different metals of the shell and the cups?

if you search on aluminum/steel frame/shells/cups install or
remove there should be an avalanche of umbrage.

if your system shows white material in joints then poss an
ionic binding occurred between steel and aluminum. Andy Muzi is
an expert on this.

Blaster does not dissolve the white material. Uneeda torch and
another pin tool.

expanding aluminum with torch or heat gun will remove the cup.

Okay, I will try heating too.

You might want to know that as a general statement aluminum bike
frames are heat treated after welding and heating aluminum to
approximately 300 - 400 degrees C will anneal it.

As an aside, probably because of the ability of aluminum to rapidly
transfer heat, my experience in heating cylindrical objects to enlarge
them has been spotty at best. If you heat the cylinder in an oven so
that the entire devise is an equal temperature then it will enlarge to
a rather surprising amount. If you try the same thing with a torch it
doesn't work so well as, I suspect, while you are heating one side the
other side is merrily transferring heat to the air or supporting
structure so what you end up with isn't a circle but an oval.


No argument with any of that, good advise.

Moderate (120~150F) heat from a heat gun seems to help
penetrants. Lighting the work on fire may have entertainment
value, but probably won't help with the actual mission.

Yes it might work but I would suggest three or four heat guns located
radially on all sides to get as even a heat as possible. Start the
heating and than go off and have a cuppa or watch youtube and come
back "after a while" and try it.
--
cheers,

John B.

On Mon, 09 Jan 2017 22:20:13 -0800, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Mon, 9 Jan 2017 22:24:41 -0000, "Benderthe.evilrobot"
wrote:

"Theodore Heise" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 08 Jan 2017 17:01:01 -0800,
Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 08 Jan 2017 16:31:15 -0800, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:
(...)

Yet another untested idea...

Use an induction heater on the steel cup.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyZEaPQinO0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJElT9xK3bk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uimEZKrVNO0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3u1IBgefNDs [1]
http://www.theinductor.com
You'll need various size coils for different bolts, cups, seat posts,
etc. There are induction heater kits on eBay:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1000W-ZVS-Low-Voltage-Induction-Heating-Board-Module-Flyback-Heater-Brass-Coil-/282317713643
The steel cup gets hot and not so much the rest of the bicycle,
including the aluminum bottom bracket which sucks away much of the
heat. However, you can get the steel hot enough to melt the aluminum,
so please use an IR thermometer to keep the temperatures down.
Aluminum melts at 660C.

Yikes!

Is there a problem?

An electric heat gun is safer than a blowtorch - but I think you still have
to be a bit careful.

The heavy duty paint strippers aren't too bad, but some heat guns are
designed for lighting solid fuel cooking ranges.

The problem with external heat generators is that the heat affected
zone is rather large and will surely creep into undesirable areas,
such as painted parts. With an induction heater, you only heat the
steel parts. Aluminum only gets hot as far as what it conducts away
from the steel.

If you happen to have an induction cooktop stove, you can demonstrate
how this works. Put a steel pot on top of the induction heater, and
only the steel will get hot. Put an aluminum, glass, or copper pan on
the stovetop, and they stay cold. Toss a coin with stainless
(magnetic stainless mostly works, non-magnetic does not).

It's the same with using an induction heater on the bottom bracket.
The steel components get hot, while the aluminum bottom bracket and
frame do not.

I don't propose heating the cup to red hot:
http://www.hearth.com/talk/attachments/metal-color-temp-chart-png.100306/
which is why I suggested an IR thermometer be used to monitor the
temperature. Melting the threads in order to release the cup would be
rather counter productive. The problem is that I don't know what
temperature is appropriate, so there will need to be some trial and
error. As always, one needs to sacrifice an old bicycle frame in the
interest of moving cycling technology forward.

If you do melt the threads then Velo Orange (and likely others) sell
threadless bottom brackets.
--
cheers,

John B.

wrote in message
...
On Monday, January 9, 2017 at 1:46:39 PM UTC-8, Benderthe.evilrobot wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Monday, January 9, 2017 at 10:47:48 AM UTC-8, Benderthe.evilrobot
wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 2:11:45 PM UTC-8, Benderthe.evilrobot
wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 2:02:27 PM UTC-8,
Benderthe.evilrobot
wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 1:14:21 PM UTC-8,
Benderthe.evilrobot
wrote:
"Theodore Heise" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 08 Jan 2017 11:08:20 -0600,
AMuzi wrote:
On 1/7/2017 8:33 PM, Theodore Heise wrote:
Hi all,

I have an early 1990s Rodriguez tandem with a rear
bottom
bracket in serious need of overhaul. The cranks flop
severely.

I've pulled the cranks and the lock ring on the left
side,
but
the adjustable cup won't come out. It turns about a
quarter
turn, but then gets too stiff to turn further. It has
no
flats for a wrench instead having holes for turning with
a
pin
spanner--so I'm unable to put a lot of force on it.

I've soaked it with WD40, but still no joy. Any advice
for
me?

Delco 10.4020 penetrant is the best, PC Blaster is good.
Warming with a heat gun can help.

If no other path, flats can be cut on the cup with a disc
grinder to allow a wrench instead of those brittle
expensive
pins.

p.s. Try the right side cup too. If that moves, you can
easily
deal with the left one after disasssembly.

Thanks for the added tips. Off to get penetrating oil and
new
pins now. Grinding on it is beyond my abilities, so if I'm
not
able to get things off with the addition of penetrating oil
and
time, I'll be hauling it off to my LBS.

At that stage; I'd turn it as far as the tight spot and give
it
a
few
strikes with a hammer. sometimes you can ease it out bit at a
time
that
way.

Once I had to shift a seized in pedal shaft, after snapping a
couple
of
spanners - I welded on the biggest nut I had a spanner for.
Quenching
the
hot steel with penetrating oil did slightly more than just
spraying
it
on
cold. The same approach would probably work with a BB cup.

It is extremely bad practice to hammer a pin spanner.

Who said anything about hammering a pin spanner?!!!

If you can't be bothered reading a post - don't bother answering
it
either.

I might suggest "At that stage; I'd turn it as far as the tight
spot
and
give it a few strikes with a hammer. sometimes you can ease it
out
bit
at
a time that way." sounds an awful lot like hammering on a pin
spanner.
Are
you supposing we're discussing removing pedals from a crank?

Sorry - I forgot you were that thick.

I'll draw pictures next time.

So you meant something other than what you wrote. Well that makes
sense.

Its so simple it just never occurred to me that anyone could **** it
up -
but somehow you always seem to manage.

Then perhaps you can explain how you didn't say to hit it with a hammer
after writing for everyone to see you suggest hitting the pin spanner
with
a hammer? Did you mean that unless you vocalize it, that it doesn't
count?

I didn't say hit the pin spanner with a hammer - you did.

Then exactly how is it that you can't explain your posting: "At that
stage; I'd turn it as far as the tight spot and give it a few strikes with
a hammer. sometimes you can ease it out bit at a time that way." Are you
suggesting he was turning it out with his fingers?

Now there's an idea - why didn't I think of that.

Striking the cup a few times often re-forms a damaged thread good enough
that you can turn it with your fingers.

I made the mistake of not assuming you're completely brain dead.

wrote in message
...
On Monday, January 9, 2017 at 1:46:39 PM UTC-8, Benderthe.evilrobot wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Monday, January 9, 2017 at 10:47:48 AM UTC-8, Benderthe.evilrobot
wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 2:11:45 PM UTC-8, Benderthe.evilrobot
wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 2:02:27 PM UTC-8,
Benderthe.evilrobot
wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 1:14:21 PM UTC-8,
Benderthe.evilrobot
wrote:
"Theodore Heise" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 08 Jan 2017 11:08:20 -0600,
AMuzi wrote:
On 1/7/2017 8:33 PM, Theodore Heise wrote:
Hi all,

I have an early 1990s Rodriguez tandem with a rear
bottom
bracket in serious need of overhaul. The cranks flop
severely.

I've pulled the cranks and the lock ring on the left
side,
but
the adjustable cup won't come out. It turns about a
quarter
turn, but then gets too stiff to turn further. It has
no
flats for a wrench instead having holes for turning with
a
pin
spanner--so I'm unable to put a lot of force on it.

I've soaked it with WD40, but still no joy. Any advice
for
me?

Delco 10.4020 penetrant is the best, PC Blaster is good.
Warming with a heat gun can help.

If no other path, flats can be cut on the cup with a disc
grinder to allow a wrench instead of those brittle
expensive
pins.

p.s. Try the right side cup too. If that moves, you can
easily
deal with the left one after disasssembly.

Thanks for the added tips. Off to get penetrating oil and
new
pins now. Grinding on it is beyond my abilities, so if I'm
not
able to get things off with the addition of penetrating oil
and
time, I'll be hauling it off to my LBS.

At that stage; I'd turn it as far as the tight spot and give
it
a
few
strikes with a hammer. sometimes you can ease it out bit at a
time
that
way.

Once I had to shift a seized in pedal shaft, after snapping a
couple
of
spanners - I welded on the biggest nut I had a spanner for.
Quenching
the
hot steel with penetrating oil did slightly more than just
spraying
it
on
cold. The same approach would probably work with a BB cup.

It is extremely bad practice to hammer a pin spanner.

Who said anything about hammering a pin spanner?!!!

If you can't be bothered reading a post - don't bother answering
it
either.

I might suggest "At that stage; I'd turn it as far as the tight
spot
and
give it a few strikes with a hammer. sometimes you can ease it
out
bit
at
a time that way." sounds an awful lot like hammering on a pin
spanner.
Are
you supposing we're discussing removing pedals from a crank?

Sorry - I forgot you were that thick.

I'll draw pictures next time.

So you meant something other than what you wrote. Well that makes
sense.

Its so simple it just never occurred to me that anyone could **** it
up -
but somehow you always seem to manage.

Then perhaps you can explain how you didn't say to hit it with a hammer
after writing for everyone to see you suggest hitting the pin spanner
with
a hammer? Did you mean that unless you vocalize it, that it doesn't
count?

I didn't say hit the pin spanner with a hammer - you did.

And I would have understood you better if you spoke in English instead of
Benderthe.evilrobot doubletalk. Tell me who hits their paint job with a
hammer?

Your school days must've been lots of fun when the other kids caught up with
you for going around making up stories.