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#11
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Before & after bike lanes
On Sep 29, 3:58*pm, "Duane Hebert" wrote:
"Frank Krygowski" wrote : The fact is, the paint stripe does NOT make the road wider. Typically, it narrows the practical width, by promoting debris accumulation within the bike lane. The only thing that will make the road wider is a wider road. Yes, I agree with that. Unfortunately, with this size road, without the bike lane, the car is free to take the right. But you seem to be pleased that the bike lane stripe forces you to ride far to the right, in whatever debris is there, even when there is not reasonable space for safe passing. *You've been taught to love the ghetto. No but I'm pleased that it prevents the cars from not riding to the left and taking my space instead. *Not sure why you don't get that. I guess because I have too much experience riding on narrow roads. Today, because of needing to stop at a particular agency on my way home, I rode by a route I've never used during commute time. It involved a narrow road with lots of pothole patches and a long, long uphill. Cars couldn't pass me when there was oncoming traffic. But the lanes were obviously too narrow for sharing. I therefore rode at or near lane center. The motorists stayed behind until it was safe to pass. One motorist briefly honked. I waved a friendly wave. The roads I most often use are wider, but have no bike lanes. Still, the same principle applies: if there's room for safe passing within the lane, I move right and let them pass. If there's not room (because of too-narrow lane, or potholes at the right, or gravel and glass or whatever) I move far enough left to be safe. Putting in a bike lane stripe would not help on any of these roads. In fact, on one half mile stretch I frequently ride, they put what seem to be "unofficial" unmarked bike lane stripes, about 2.5 feet from the curb. Previously, debris collected maybe 6" from the curb. Now it collects two feet from the curb, and I ride further left as a result. - Frank Krygowski |
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#12
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Before & after bike lanes
On Sep 29, 4:21*pm, "(PeteCresswell)" wrote:
Per Frank Krygowski: And 50 kph is, by my standards, a slow & pleasant road. That speed limit is only 5 mph more than our park speed limits. Might depend on how many people actually limit themselves to 50 kph. That's 31.25 mph in USA-ian. In my part of Southeastern Penna, the nearest common analogs to that are 35 mph zones (30 mph zones being extremely rare). In the 35 mph zones I frequent, many people are doing 50+. Likewise, 25 mph zones are commonly traveled at 35-45 mph. I agree, that's common. Yet I have no worries about riding in a 35 mph zone. (Or 40 or 45.) If I did, I wouldn't ride to work. There'd be no way to get there. That doesn't mean I'm against enforcement of the speed limit, though. The current lax enforcement is, I think, one of the many ways in which society gives too much privilege to motorists. - Frank Krygowski |
#13
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Before & after bike lanes
"Frank Krygowski" wrote in message
... On Sep 29, 3:58 pm, "Duane Hebert" wrote: "Frank Krygowski" wrote : The fact is, the paint stripe does NOT make the road wider. Typically, it narrows the practical width, by promoting debris accumulation within the bike lane. The only thing that will make the road wider is a wider road. Yes, I agree with that. No but I'm pleased that it prevents the cars from not riding to the left and taking my space instead. Not sure why you don't get that. I guess because I have too much experience riding on narrow roads. Today, because of needing to stop at a particular agency on my way home, I rode by a route I've never used during commute time. It involved a narrow road with lots of pothole patches and a long, long uphill. Cars couldn't pass me when there was oncoming traffic. But the lanes were obviously too narrow for sharing. I therefore rode at or near lane center. The motorists stayed behind until it was safe to pass. One motorist briefly honked. I waved a friendly wave. Oh we have roads like this and it's pretty much the same thing. On my daily commute, I have either this scenario or 4 lanes that are much faster with cars going on and off the highways. Particularly nasty in rain where there's reduced visibility. The road that I'm talking about is one that I use for pleasure rides. I can take the lakeshore road from my house pretty much into old Montreal and back for a 80km trip and not really have to fight any cars. It's pretty cool for me after the daily road battles. The roads I most often use are wider, but have no bike lanes. Still, the same principle applies: if there's room for safe passing within the lane, I move right and let them pass. If there's not room (because of too-narrow lane, or potholes at the right, or gravel and glass or whatever) I move far enough left to be safe. Taking the lane on this road would be bad for everyone. Traffic would back up for miles. There's a lot of traffic and there's no passing. I drive on it myself and would not be happy about it. Putting in a bike lane stripe would not help on any of these roads. In fact, on one half mile stretch I frequently ride, they put what seem to be "unofficial" unmarked bike lane stripes, about 2.5 feet from the curb. Previously, debris collected maybe 6" from the curb. Now it collects two feet from the curb, and I ride further left as a result. I know, but in this case, the bike lane works. It's not perfect but it allows me a place to ride where it's decent. It's actually decent for both cars and bikes. And it's mostly bikes in the bike lane as opposed to skaters, dog walkers etc that you get on bike paths. As for the debris, I must be spoiled since living here. The roads, though famous for potholes are usually kept pretty clean. |
#14
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Before & after bike lanes
On Sep 29, 4:35*pm, Peter Cole wrote:
On 9/29/2010 3:25 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote: *You've been taught to love the ghetto. On a twisty road, motorists often cut corners. You can see this in the wear of the paint stripes and cleared areas of the pavement. Some roads are striped such that the outside lane is narrowed artificially, leaving a wide paved shoulder. This will help prevent motorists from cutting corners, although an explicit bike lane makes it clearer that bicycles may be encountered in that space. However, with the motorist positioned toward the road-center side of the car (the "driver's side," not the "passenger side") he can see quite a way around corners. And if a cyclist is knowledgeable enough to stay out of the gutter, he's visible for a considerable distance behind. Pay attention as you drive a twisty road. I've done this quite a bit in Appalachian driving - asked myself "How far ahead could I see a cyclist?" It's never so little as to constitute a hazard. And if it were, it would mean I was driving far too fast for conditions. Even on straight roads, narrowing the lanes artificially may calm traffic somewhat just by making staying in the lane a bit more challenging. Is there any data proving that? If debris accumulates in shoulders or bike lanes it's proof that drivers aren't driving there, which is good for cyclists, particularly on narrow twisty roads. The fix for debris hazards is more frequent sweeping. Funny you should mention that. I noticed today that the street sweepers had just cleaned one of my daily commuting streets. That's the second time this year! The point is, you may say "The solution is obvious: Sweep frequently!" But the city says "We've got a 5 million dollar deficit, potholes that need patching, police we're forced to lay off, a fire station that we can't afford to keep open, school buses we can't afford to run... and you want us to sweep your bike lanes???? Are you nuts????" - Frank Krygowski |
#15
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Before & after bike lanes
On 9/29/2010 1:14 PM, Duane Hebert wrote:
"Tom Sherman °_°" wrote in message ... On 9/29/2010 7:47 AM, Duane Hebert wrote: [...] Besides, it's not always a question of giving up 6 "reasonably open" lanes (btw where do you find this except an interstate?) In the West Island section of Montreal, my main path to get to the city is along Lakeshore. This is a two lane winding road with a speed limit mostly at 50kph. There is a solid center line preventing passing due to the curves. There is a bike lane on each side. Without the bike lanes it would be a nightmare for both drivers and cyclists.[...] How does the bike lane increase the width of the pavement? Don't understand your question. Without the bike lanes the cyclist would have to ride in the single lane with the cars. The traffic would back up for miles. If the street is wide enough for the cars to pass the bicycles with the white line painted on the surface, the street would still be the same width without the line, therefore the cars could still pass the bicycles. -- Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007 I am a vehicular cyclist. |
#16
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Before & after bike lanes
"Tom Sherman °_°" wrote in message ... On 9/29/2010 1:14 PM, Duane Hebert wrote: "Tom Sherman °_°" wrote in message ... On 9/29/2010 7:47 AM, Duane Hebert wrote: [...] Besides, it's not always a question of giving up 6 "reasonably open" lanes (btw where do you find this except an interstate?) In the West Island section of Montreal, my main path to get to the city is along Lakeshore. This is a two lane winding road with a speed limit mostly at 50kph. There is a solid center line preventing passing due to the curves. There is a bike lane on each side. Without the bike lanes it would be a nightmare for both drivers and cyclists.[...] How does the bike lane increase the width of the pavement? Don't understand your question. Without the bike lanes the cyclist would have to ride in the single lane with the cars. The traffic would back up for miles. If the street is wide enough for the cars to pass the bicycles with the white line painted on the surface, the street would still be the same width without the line, therefore the cars could still pass the bicycles. The purpose of the bike lane is to allocate the space for bikes. Without that and just a bit wider lane, the car has as much right to it as the bike. I get that this isn't always useful but in cases like this one, it provides the cyclist a lane. |
#17
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Before & after bike lanes
On Sep 29, 4:15*pm, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Sep 29, 4:35*pm, Peter Cole wrote: On 9/29/2010 3:25 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote: *You've been taught to love the ghetto. On a twisty road, motorists often cut corners. You can see this in the wear of the paint stripes and cleared areas of the pavement. Some roads are striped such that the outside lane is narrowed artificially, leaving a wide paved shoulder. This will help prevent motorists from cutting corners, although an explicit bike lane makes it clearer that bicycles may be encountered in that space. However, with the motorist positioned toward the road-center side of the car (the "driver's side," not the "passenger side") he can see quite a way around corners. *And if a cyclist is knowledgeable enough to stay out of the gutter, he's visible for a considerable distance behind. Pay attention as you drive a twisty road. *I've done this quite a bit in Appalachian driving - asked myself "How far ahead could I see a cyclist?" *It's never so little as to constitute a hazard. *And if it were, it would mean I was driving far too fast for conditions. Even on straight roads, narrowing the lanes artificially may calm traffic somewhat just by making staying in the lane a bit more challenging. Is there any data proving that? If debris accumulates in shoulders or bike lanes it's proof that drivers aren't driving there, which is good for cyclists, particularly on narrow twisty roads. The fix for debris hazards is more frequent sweeping. Funny you should mention that. *I noticed today that the street sweepers had just cleaned one of my daily commuting streets. *That's the second time this year! The point is, you may say "The solution is obvious: Sweep frequently!" *But the city says "We've got a 5 million dollar deficit, potholes that need patching, police we're forced to lay off, a fire station that we can't afford to keep open, school buses we can't afford to run... and you want us to sweep your bike lanes???? *Are you nuts????" This is why we should all drive more -- generate gas tax for road maintenance. On the narrow twisty roads around here, we don't have shoulders. http://www.flickr.com/photos/brianellin/3433416816/ (my favorite slalom course). Soon the killer leaves will arrive. http://www.flickr.com/photos/nymphobrainiac/4037976846/ Rather than sweep them, shut down the road! -- Jay Beattie. |
#18
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Before & after bike lanes
On Sep 29, 8:18*pm, "Duane Hebert" wrote:
The purpose of the bike lane is to allocate the space for bikes. *Without that and just a bit wider lane, the car has as much right to it as the bike. I get that this isn't always useful but in cases like this one, it provides the cyclist a lane. I think you're somewhat confused on "right of way" concepts. This might help. http://ohiobikelawyer.com/uncategori...e-road-stinks/ or http://tinyurl.com/24ehjmj - Frank Krygowski |
#19
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Before & after bike lanes
On 9/29/2010 7:18 PM, Duane Hebert wrote:
"Tom Sherman wrote in message ... On 9/29/2010 1:14 PM, Duane Hebert wrote: "Tom Sherman wrote in message ... On 9/29/2010 7:47 AM, Duane Hebert wrote: [...] Besides, it's not always a question of giving up 6 "reasonably open" lanes (btw where do you find this except an interstate?) In the West Island section of Montreal, my main path to get to the city is along Lakeshore. This is a two lane winding road with a speed limit mostly at 50kph. There is a solid center line preventing passing due to the curves. There is a bike lane on each side. Without the bike lanes it would be a nightmare for both drivers and cyclists.[...] How does the bike lane increase the width of the pavement? Don't understand your question. Without the bike lanes the cyclist would have to ride in the single lane with the cars. The traffic would back up for miles. If the street is wide enough for the cars to pass the bicycles with the white line painted on the surface, the street would still be the same width without the line, therefore the cars could still pass the bicycles. The purpose of the bike lane is to allocate the space for bikes. Without that and just a bit wider lane, the car has as much right to it as the bike. I get that this isn't always useful but in cases like this one, it provides the cyclist a lane. You fail to understand rules of right-of-way here. The vehicle (motorized or not) has the right to use the lane farthest to the right [1] (or the only lane on two-lane roads), regardless of whether the traffic behind wants to go faster or not (with a few exceptions, like California's pull over rule if more than 5 vehicles are being held up). The cyclist inferiority attitude "I must get out of the way of the cagers" is dismaying. [1] Left for Japan and Commonwealth islands. -- Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007 I am a vehicular cyclist. |
#20
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Before & after bike lanes
On Wed, 29 Sep 2010 14:14:37 -0400, "Duane Hebert"
wrote: Don't understand your question. Without the bike lanes the cyclist would have to ride in the single lane with the cars. The traffic would back up for miles. By what magical means does painting a line on a lane that isn't wide enough to share make it wide enough to share? By encouraging drivers to overtake with minus-one inches between their door handles and my elbow? -- Joy Beeson joy beeson at comcast dot net |
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