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#131
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Stronger rubber cement?
On 2017-01-16 19:28, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, January 16, 2017 at 4:23:53 PM UTC-8, Joerg wrote: On 2017-01-16 13:39, Sir Ridesalot wrote: On Monday, January 16, 2017 at 2:39:18 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote: On Monday, January 16, 2017 at 11:03:05 AM UTC-8, Joerg wrote: On 2017-01-16 10:43, David Scheidt wrote: Joerg wrote: :Yup. Standard bicycle tubes are usually junk. Would you accept it if you :had to pump up the tires of your car every two weeks? Yet most cyclists :think this is "normal". Automotive tires have a much lower ratio of surface area to volume than bike tires. They're also run a lower pressure, for the most part. Truck tires are often operated around 50psi or higher. Like my MTB tires are. A truck tire weights as a much as TWO UCI minimum race bikes -- or one DH bike. Now throw in the rim. You have peculiar expectations for bicycles. You're theoretically perfect bike would weigh about 250lbs. -- Jay Beattie. I've said it before and I'll say it again. What Joerg's wants in a bicycle are would be met by a 250cc dirt-motorcycle converted to pedal power and the engine removed. I find it astounding that so many others who ride in very harsh conditions do NOT have the breakages or other problems that Joerg does. According to several bicycle shop owners they do. Many said that two factors allowed them to survive as a business: 1. Mountain bikers breaking stuff all the time. 2. Department store bike buyers who needed help and found that the store that sold their bikes was less than helpful. Unlike cars, which never need to be fixed, and that's why there are no auto repair shops. http://tinyurl.com/jba5fgb Care to compare the number of vehicles plus the miles traveled? Maybe then it becomes more clear. Cars are way more reliable than bicycles. Especially if you buy top quality cars like we did. Other than regular scheduled maintenance there were no breakdowns in the whole two decades we own them. None, as in zero. Not even one flat tire. Try that with a bicycle. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ |
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#132
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Stronger rubber cement?
On 1/16/2017 7:30 PM, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 16:23:53 -0800, Joerg wrote: On 2017-01-16 13:39, Sir Ridesalot wrote: On Monday, January 16, 2017 at 2:39:18 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote: On Monday, January 16, 2017 at 11:03:05 AM UTC-8, Joerg wrote: On 2017-01-16 10:43, David Scheidt wrote: Joerg wrote: :Yup. Standard bicycle tubes are usually junk. Would you accept it if you :had to pump up the tires of your car every two weeks? Yet most cyclists :think this is "normal". Automotive tires have a much lower ratio of surface area to volume than bike tires. They're also run a lower pressure, for the most part. Truck tires are often operated around 50psi or higher. Like my MTB tires are. A truck tire weights as a much as TWO UCI minimum race bikes -- or one DH bike. Now throw in the rim. You have peculiar expectations for bicycles. You're theoretically perfect bike would weigh about 250lbs. -- Jay Beattie. I've said it before and I'll say it again. What Joerg's wants in a bicycle are would be met by a 250cc dirt-motorcycle converted to pedal power and the engine removed. I find it astounding that so many others who ride in very harsh conditions do NOT have the breakages or other problems that Joerg does. According to several bicycle shop owners they do. Many said that two factors allowed them to survive as a business: 1. Mountain bikers breaking stuff all the time. 2. Department store bike buyers who needed help and found that the store that sold their bikes was less than helpful. Strange. My LBS is a chain of two large shops in Bangkok, and a large number of agents scattered all over the country, and is the largest bicycle business in Thailand. They sell predominantly road bikes and the sales manager tells me that a very large portion of the bikes that they sell are Carbon. In fact she said that it was much easier to sell a carbon bike than an aluminum bike. Do you live in some poor, improvised, area where people can't afford decent equipment :-? I wonder whether Andrew's business depends on broken mountain bikes and cheap walmart stuff? We don't depend on it. But we've outlived a great number of other shops in part because we are not snobs and are as helpful as patience permits with the usual crap. The owners of the usual crap are just as human as anyone else and respond well to a kind word. I'm thinking here of a particular customer. He bought a stereo system which included a 'free' bike. Two other shops gave him an earful and threw him out. Our employee adjusted the seat and bars, made the brakes functional and improved it from a death trap to a lousy bicycle in a few minutes' time. He became a regular customer for many years with new very nice bikes eventually. Quick frame repair during a party while wearing a hula skirt: http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfr...t/hulaweld.jpg Owner needed it ASAP to go to work. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
#133
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Stronger rubber cement?
On 1/16/2017 10:10 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, January 16, 2017 at 10:28:41 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote: On Monday, January 16, 2017 at 4:23:53 PM UTC-8, Joerg wrote: On 2017-01-16 13:39, Sir Ridesalot wrote: On Monday, January 16, 2017 at 2:39:18 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote: On Monday, January 16, 2017 at 11:03:05 AM UTC-8, Joerg wrote: On 2017-01-16 10:43, David Scheidt wrote: Joerg wrote: :Yup. Standard bicycle tubes are usually junk. Would you accept it if you :had to pump up the tires of your car every two weeks? Yet most cyclists :think this is "normal". Automotive tires have a much lower ratio of surface area to volume than bike tires. They're also run a lower pressure, for the most part. Truck tires are often operated around 50psi or higher. Like my MTB tires are. A truck tire weights as a much as TWO UCI minimum race bikes -- or one DH bike. Now throw in the rim. You have peculiar expectations for bicycles. You're theoretically perfect bike would weigh about 250lbs. -- Jay Beattie. I've said it before and I'll say it again. What Joerg's wants in a bicycle are would be met by a 250cc dirt-motorcycle converted to pedal power and the engine removed. I find it astounding that so many others who ride in very harsh conditions do NOT have the breakages or other problems that Joerg does. According to several bicycle shop owners they do. Many said that two factors allowed them to survive as a business: 1. Mountain bikers breaking stuff all the time. 2. Department store bike buyers who needed help and found that the store that sold their bikes was less than helpful. Unlike cars, which never need to be fixed, and that's why there are no auto repair shops. http://tinyurl.com/jba5fgb -- Jay Beattie. Read Joerg's post from over the years and you'll see that Joerg takes great delight in complaining. Joerg does not want/need a bicycle - he needs/wants a pedal powered motorcycle. For his bicycle he should just buy solid rubber tires and be done with every needing to fix a flat or pump them up. Cheers search keyword is 'tweel'. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
#134
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Stronger rubber cement?
On 2017-01-16 17:18, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 11:03:04 -0800, Joerg wrote: On 2017-01-16 10:43, David Scheidt wrote: Joerg wrote: :Yup. Standard bicycle tubes are usually junk. Would you accept it if you :had to pump up the tires of your car every two weeks? Yet most cyclists :think this is "normal". Automotive tires have a much lower ratio of surface area to volume than bike tires. They're also run a lower pressure, for the most part. Truck tires are often operated around 50psi or higher. Like my MTB tires are. Have you ever tried to pick up a truck tire"? Yes. A typical 45" truck tire, say a B.F. Goodrich 445/65R-22.5, weighs, according to the manufacturer some 215 lbs. Standard operating pressure is in the neighborhood of 120 psi. Comparing bicycle tires with tires for other vehicles is, to say the least, a bit silly. Unless, of course you plan on a 600 lb. bicycle :-) I meant for pickup trucks. You can get regular tires with a limited pressure range or slightly more expensive commercial grade ones for much higher pressure. They make a lot of sense if the truck is going to operated under a lot of load or on rough turf. A neighbor had them on his Dodge Dakota and IIRC they were rated at 75psi max. The Dakota is not even a large pickup truck, more the size of a compact car. [...] -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ |
#135
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Stronger rubber cement?
On 2017-01-16 21:51, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 23:05:43 -0000 (UTC), Duane wrote: The idea of two pounds worth of tubes to avoid putting air in my tires doesn't parse at all. Let's do it by the numbers. The tubes I usually buy are these: http://www.nashbar.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_10053_10052_175629_-1___205038 26x1.5" for $4.79ea. They weigh 176g (0.39 lbs) and they leak air. The proposed leak proof tubes: https://www.amazon.com/Sunlite-Thorn-Resistant-Presta-Valve/dp/B0063R2GJW/ 26x1.5" for $15.36ea. These weigh 572g (1.26 lbs). For two tires, that a difference of: 2 * (1.26 - 0.39) = 1.74 lbs (789g) Not quite 2 lbs but close enough. The average 26x1.5" tire seems to weigh about 550g (1.2 lbs). Ignoring the weight of the wheel, with these tubes the rotating weight will increase by: 1.74 / (2 * (1.2 + 0.39)) = 55% Offhand, it seems a bit too heavy to be worthwhile. Please note that my original problem was not to find the best thorn proof tire, but rather one that doesn't leak out of the box. I don't seem to experience any sudden releases of air, but instead get slow leaks. On the wheels in question, I ride on pavement. You won't see slow leakage anymore after switching to the thick tubes. I believe you do not live in hilly terrain but in the Bay Area and there the increased weight won't matter much. The increased rotating mass might but only if you have lots of stop and go traffic, with a lot of braking. As for me, I'll never buy a thin tube again no matter where I ride and currently I live in a very hilly region. The only downside is if a tube does go because a tire side wall failed it is an expensive affair because that generally can't be patched. It's also a rather loud scenario. The advantage on the road bike: I managed to ride home sans air because the tube already looks almost inflated without air. It and the tire were shot anyhow so it was ok (at reduced speed). Doesn't work on the MTB though, I had to walk it all the way home but the tire was so shredded anyhow that chunks flopped around. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ |
#136
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Stronger rubber cement?
On 17/01/2017 10:50 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-16 19:28, jbeattie wrote: On Monday, January 16, 2017 at 4:23:53 PM UTC-8, Joerg wrote: On 2017-01-16 13:39, Sir Ridesalot wrote: On Monday, January 16, 2017 at 2:39:18 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote: On Monday, January 16, 2017 at 11:03:05 AM UTC-8, Joerg wrote: On 2017-01-16 10:43, David Scheidt wrote: Joerg wrote: :Yup. Standard bicycle tubes are usually junk. Would you accept it if you :had to pump up the tires of your car every two weeks? Yet most cyclists :think this is "normal". Automotive tires have a much lower ratio of surface area to volume than bike tires. They're also run a lower pressure, for the most part. Truck tires are often operated around 50psi or higher. Like my MTB tires are. A truck tire weights as a much as TWO UCI minimum race bikes -- or one DH bike. Now throw in the rim. You have peculiar expectations for bicycles. You're theoretically perfect bike would weigh about 250lbs. -- Jay Beattie. I've said it before and I'll say it again. What Joerg's wants in a bicycle are would be met by a 250cc dirt-motorcycle converted to pedal power and the engine removed. I find it astounding that so many others who ride in very harsh conditions do NOT have the breakages or other problems that Joerg does. According to several bicycle shop owners they do. Many said that two factors allowed them to survive as a business: 1. Mountain bikers breaking stuff all the time. 2. Department store bike buyers who needed help and found that the store that sold their bikes was less than helpful. Unlike cars, which never need to be fixed, and that's why there are no auto repair shops. http://tinyurl.com/jba5fgb Care to compare the number of vehicles plus the miles traveled? Maybe then it becomes more clear. Cars are way more reliable than bicycles. Especially if you buy top quality cars like we did. Other than regular scheduled maintenance there were no breakdowns in the whole two decades we own them. None, as in zero. Not even one flat tire. Try that with a bicycle. It's not clear why you think you can compare cars to bicycles with respect to durability. Bicycle design parameters are not the same as those for a car. For one thing, they have to be propelled by a person, not a motor. No one would pay for a bike made to your specs anyway. |
#137
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Stronger rubber cement?
On Tuesday, January 17, 2017 at 7:50:18 AM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-16 19:28, jbeattie wrote: On Monday, January 16, 2017 at 4:23:53 PM UTC-8, Joerg wrote: On 2017-01-16 13:39, Sir Ridesalot wrote: On Monday, January 16, 2017 at 2:39:18 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote: On Monday, January 16, 2017 at 11:03:05 AM UTC-8, Joerg wrote: On 2017-01-16 10:43, David Scheidt wrote: Joerg wrote: :Yup. Standard bicycle tubes are usually junk. Would you accept it if you :had to pump up the tires of your car every two weeks? Yet most cyclists :think this is "normal". Automotive tires have a much lower ratio of surface area to volume than bike tires. They're also run a lower pressure, for the most part. Truck tires are often operated around 50psi or higher. Like my MTB tires are. A truck tire weights as a much as TWO UCI minimum race bikes -- or one DH bike. Now throw in the rim. You have peculiar expectations for bicycles. You're theoretically perfect bike would weigh about 250lbs. -- Jay Beattie. I've said it before and I'll say it again. What Joerg's wants in a bicycle are would be met by a 250cc dirt-motorcycle converted to pedal power and the engine removed. I find it astounding that so many others who ride in very harsh conditions do NOT have the breakages or other problems that Joerg does. According to several bicycle shop owners they do. Many said that two factors allowed them to survive as a business: 1. Mountain bikers breaking stuff all the time. 2. Department store bike buyers who needed help and found that the store that sold their bikes was less than helpful. Unlike cars, which never need to be fixed, and that's why there are no auto repair shops. http://tinyurl.com/jba5fgb Care to compare the number of vehicles plus the miles traveled? Maybe then it becomes more clear. Cars are way more reliable than bicycles. Especially if you buy top quality cars like we did. Other than regular scheduled maintenance there were no breakdowns in the whole two decades we own them. None, as in zero. Not even one flat tire. Try that with a bicycle. I just spent $1,200 on a clutch because my dopey son lives in a city with 20% grades up to stop lights. That does not include the motel bill and towing when the clutch went belly-up outside of Baker City. That was after new rear drums, bearings, etc., etc. I've stupidly re-bought that car -- not including gas and oil changes. An F-1 patch costs me $.08. A decent bike is $1K, and I don't pay insurance, registration, licensing, etc. What I pay in car insurance annually would buy me an all new bike every year. Skip cleaning the chain -- just put last year's bike out with the garbage. Plus, my bikes are reliable. I reliably change the chain when the wear indicator indicates and change the tires when they are worn out. I fix a flat now and then and do other routine maintenance. It's not like some monumental inconvenience, and if flats were epidemic, then I would switch to a hard-case tire. I would not agonize over the fact that the 20lb tire on my Subaru goes flat less often. That is not to say that bike tires are not ridiculously expensive. I do have issues with the cost of certain bike-related things. -- Jay Beattie. |
#138
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Stronger rubber cement?
On Tue, 17 Jan 2017 14:38:12 +0700, John B.
wrote: Inner tubes come in a myriad types and prices. If you buy the absolute lightest, thinnest, tubes, they will leak, but if you buy thicker inner tubes they will usually be cheaper and may leak a bit but not to the "pump them up every day" extent. Yep. That was also my theory. I would buy the cheapest tubes available from a reputable discounter and expect to receive moderately heavy and presumably thick inner tubes. I don't have a small collection of cheap inner tubes. All seem to leak very slowly. I keep planning to drag a few tubes down to the local auto tire dealer, who has a proper dunk tank, and look for bubbles. I expect the leaks to be really obvious as inflating the inner tube to a low pressure without it being confined in a tire, causes any tiny holes to greatly expand. For what it's worth, the tubes that seem to leak the least were bought at a department store (K-mart). It used to be that "sew ups", or "tubular's", were the last word in bicycle tires and, as I remember it, they did require pumping up practically every time you got on the bike. (and I don't remember anyone complaining about it :-) I have a set of wheels with sew ups somewhere. I last used them maybe 40 years ago. I've never raced, so sew ups offer no benefits to me. I wonder if they still will hold air? Drivel: How to patch a tire with deodorant and clear package tape: http://www.instructables.com/id/Fix-A-Bike-Inner-Tube-With-Two-Common-House-Hold-P/?ALLSTEPS Ummm... not a good idea. -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
#139
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Stronger rubber cement?
On 2017-01-17 08:21, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, January 17, 2017 at 7:50:18 AM UTC-8, Joerg wrote: On 2017-01-16 19:28, jbeattie wrote: On Monday, January 16, 2017 at 4:23:53 PM UTC-8, Joerg wrote: On 2017-01-16 13:39, Sir Ridesalot wrote: On Monday, January 16, 2017 at 2:39:18 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote: On Monday, January 16, 2017 at 11:03:05 AM UTC-8, Joerg wrote: On 2017-01-16 10:43, David Scheidt wrote: Joerg wrote: :Yup. Standard bicycle tubes are usually junk. Would you accept it if you :had to pump up the tires of your car every two weeks? Yet most cyclists :think this is "normal". Automotive tires have a much lower ratio of surface area to volume than bike tires. They're also run a lower pressure, for the most part. Truck tires are often operated around 50psi or higher. Like my MTB tires are. A truck tire weights as a much as TWO UCI minimum race bikes -- or one DH bike. Now throw in the rim. You have peculiar expectations for bicycles. You're theoretically perfect bike would weigh about 250lbs. -- Jay Beattie. I've said it before and I'll say it again. What Joerg's wants in a bicycle are would be met by a 250cc dirt-motorcycle converted to pedal power and the engine removed. I find it astounding that so many others who ride in very harsh conditions do NOT have the breakages or other problems that Joerg does. According to several bicycle shop owners they do. Many said that two factors allowed them to survive as a business: 1. Mountain bikers breaking stuff all the time. 2. Department store bike buyers who needed help and found that the store that sold their bikes was less than helpful. Unlike cars, which never need to be fixed, and that's why there are no auto repair shops. http://tinyurl.com/jba5fgb Care to compare the number of vehicles plus the miles traveled? Maybe then it becomes more clear. Cars are way more reliable than bicycles. Especially if you buy top quality cars like we did. Other than regular scheduled maintenance there were no breakdowns in the whole two decades we own them. None, as in zero. Not even one flat tire. Try that with a bicycle. I just spent $1,200 on a clutch because my dopey son lives in a city with 20% grades up to stop lights. That does not include the motel bill and towing when the clutch went belly-up outside of Baker City. That was after new rear drums, bearings, etc., etc. I've stupidly re-bought that car -- not including gas and oil changes. Get a new son 8-) I drive a stick-shift and have hauled copious amounts of fuel pellets, lumber, industrial equipment, plus half-ton loads of firewood over some really bad dirt roads. We have a very hilly terrain including some steep roads that can scare people. Nothing ever broke. An F-1 patch costs me $.08. A decent bike is $1K, and I don't pay insurance, registration, licensing, etc. You do pay insurance. Bike mishaps are simply covered by other insurance such as home owner's but you must pay the premiums. Else you might lose all you've got if you screw up in traffic and cause a serious crash. One of the many reason for umbrella policies. As a lawyer you should know :-) What I pay in car insurance annually would buy me an all new bike every year. Skip cleaning the chain -- just put last year's bike out with the garbage. Plus, my bikes are reliable. I reliably change the chain when the wear indicator indicates and change the tires when they are worn out. I fix a flat now and then and do other routine maintenance. It's not like some monumental inconvenience, and if flats were epidemic, then I would switch to a hard-case tire. I would not agonize over the fact that the 20lb tire on my Subaru goes flat less often. My point is that when I say I am going to be there for an important meeting at 11:30am I don't want to leave half an hour earlier just in case I get a flat. And good luck getting that Gatorksin tire back onto one of my rims. That is not to say that bike tires are not ridiculously expensive. I do have issues with the cost of certain bike-related things. For the MTB I have (almost) found the solution. The best tires seem to come from Asia and they also happen to be cheap. The MTB still costs a bit much to operate per mile but oh well. Still looking for a solution for the road bike and I'll have to find that soon because I just mounted the last Gatorskin from the stack. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ |
#140
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Stronger rubber cement?
On Tue, 17 Jan 2017 08:04:14 -0800, Joerg
wrote: You won't see slow leakage anymore after switching to the thick tubes. I hope not. How thick are the Sunlite tubes? It seems they also make 2.25mm thick tubes: https://www.amazon.com/Sunlite-Dirt-2-25mm-Thick-Tubes/dp/B016QRR4TU Racing tubes seem to be around 0.7mm while street tubes seem to hover around 0.9mm. I can't find a number for the ones you recommend. Also, do you have a rubber hardness gauge? http://www.ebay.com/itm/162026017972 I have one which I use to measure automobile tire hardness, o-ring flex, gasket hardness, and effects of UV hardening, temperature, solvents, etc. However, I've never bothered to test bicycle inner tubes. Time permitting, I'll do some quick checking. Note that the way the gauge works is to attempt to shove a needle into the material. Hopefully, that won't puncture the tube. I believe you do not live in hilly terrain but in the Bay Area and there the increased weight won't matter much. The increased rotating mass might but only if you have lots of stop and go traffic, with a lot of braking. Well, I live in the Santa Cruz mountains, which are full of hills. However, I don't ride around my house. What little I do these days is a few excursions, and some local errands. I seem to be putting more mileage on my indoor bicycle trainer than on the road. During summer, I do service calls on my bicycle, which carrying a backpack full of tools and junk. Running errands around town involves some stop and go, but we have a nice multipurpose road that parallels the river which bypasses most of the traffic. -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
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