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  #21  
Old August 2nd 19, 11:41 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
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Posts: 763
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On Fri, 2 Aug 2019 08:23:53 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Friday, August 2, 2019 at 10:32:44 AM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 2 Aug 2019 07:16:35 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Friday, August 2, 2019 at 8:15:27 AM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
On 8/1/2019 10:22 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 01 Aug 2019 20:23:09 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 8/1/2019 7:29 PM, John B. wrote:
I know this is off topic but I don't find the answer anywhere else.

Today's news has Pres. Trump accusing the Chinese of continuing to
sell fentanyl to the United States -- "and many Americans continue to
die!"

But my research shows that fentanyl is a medical drug for the
alleviation of severe pain and as such I would assume to be a
controlled substance. How than, "many Americans continue to die!" ?
--
cheers,

John B.


Like the situation the past few years in Philippines[1],
where legal pharmaceutical stimulants were suddenly and
voluminously exceeded by imported methamphetamine from the
Norks, Red China and a new domestic industry, the bulk of
USA street Fentanyl is not rerouted anaesthetic
pharmaceuticals but rather imports from China and China
routed through Mexico.

This is not news:
https://www.news-herald.com/news/ohi...57599081b.html

Since the transfer cost of contraband is relatively fixed by
mass, imports tend to extremely powerful versions and
analogs, notably veterinary Carfentanyl

http://www.ottawapublichealth.ca/en/...rfentanil.aspx

[1] As with Mr Trump, Mr Duterte has reacted to a real
problem, You may disagree with either man's policy or style
or rhetoric, but the problems are indeed real. Facts are
stubborn things...

Frankly while the "solution" may seem to be to get the host country to
ban the substance, whatever it may be, in reality that doesn't work.
In the recent past Opium was legally sold in Laos. You could go to the
market and buy it.

Than the U.S. beat the Laotians over the head and got them to outlaw
opium and its depravities and while it was no longer sold in the
market the production of opium and its depravities actually grew and
today it is estimated that Laos and Myanmar (not the major grower of
poppies) produced 893 metric tons of opium, in 2013, a 22 percent
growth from the previous year.

How can this be? Well Europe and the U.S. will buy, albeit illicitly,
just about all the opium products that a small country can produce and
not surprisingly to any student of economics where a market exists a
source will be found to supply it.

The current largest producer of poppies in the world is Afghanistan
with some 225,000 hectares ( 555,987 acres)in production.

What is the solution? Simple, penalize the users. If the demand is
reduced then the supply will also be reduced.

Is it politically possible in a country like the U.S.? Probably not.
--
cheers,

John B.
"What is the solution? Simple, penalize the users."

The net effect of the first hundred years of near-worldwide
heroin ban hasn't worked out all that well. Seems to have
merely kept the price up, encouraging supply.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

And thereby making the rich even richer as they deal it.

I heroin the MAIN reason the USA and Canada went into Afghanistan? LOL VBRG

Cheers


If heroin is the main reason that The U.S. and Canada went into
Afghanistan then they weren't very successful given that Afghanistan
is the single largest producer of Opium and its derivatives in the
world :-)
--
cheers,

John B.


What I meant was did those two countries go into Afghanistan to SECURE the opium poppy trade/source? VBEG

Cheers


Oh! I don't think so, or at last from what I've read, Afganstan is in
the feudal governmental stage of development with Lords, Dukes and
Counts, except that they call them War Lords, owning or controlling
much of the land outside the cities, rather like England in 1066.

And, since the Warlords control most of the country side, and the
population, i.e. soldiers, outside the cities anyone wanting to
control Afghanistan must be friendly with the Warlords and give them
guns to keep them strong and heaps of money to keep them friendly, and
not enquire too deeply into how they run their bailiwick.

And, perhaps the easiest money crop for the Warlords to grow, on their
land, is Opium.

As an aside, almost exactly as Laos in the old Air America days :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

Ads
  #22  
Old August 2nd 19, 11:47 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 763
Default Off Topic

On Fri, 02 Aug 2019 10:42:55 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 8/2/2019 9:32 AM, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 2 Aug 2019 07:16:35 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Friday, August 2, 2019 at 8:15:27 AM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
On 8/1/2019 10:22 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 01 Aug 2019 20:23:09 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 8/1/2019 7:29 PM, John B. wrote:
I know this is off topic but I don't find the answer anywhere else.

Today's news has Pres. Trump accusing the Chinese of continuing to
sell fentanyl to the United States -- "and many Americans continue to
die!"

But my research shows that fentanyl is a medical drug for the
alleviation of severe pain and as such I would assume to be a
controlled substance. How than, "many Americans continue to die!" ?
--
cheers,

John B.


Like the situation the past few years in Philippines[1],
where legal pharmaceutical stimulants were suddenly and
voluminously exceeded by imported methamphetamine from the
Norks, Red China and a new domestic industry, the bulk of
USA street Fentanyl is not rerouted anaesthetic
pharmaceuticals but rather imports from China and China
routed through Mexico.

This is not news:
https://www.news-herald.com/news/ohi...57599081b.html

Since the transfer cost of contraband is relatively fixed by
mass, imports tend to extremely powerful versions and
analogs, notably veterinary Carfentanyl

http://www.ottawapublichealth.ca/en/...rfentanil.aspx

[1] As with Mr Trump, Mr Duterte has reacted to a real
problem, You may disagree with either man's policy or style
or rhetoric, but the problems are indeed real. Facts are
stubborn things...

Frankly while the "solution" may seem to be to get the host country to
ban the substance, whatever it may be, in reality that doesn't work.
In the recent past Opium was legally sold in Laos. You could go to the
market and buy it.

Than the U.S. beat the Laotians over the head and got them to outlaw
opium and its depravities and while it was no longer sold in the
market the production of opium and its depravities actually grew and
today it is estimated that Laos and Myanmar (not the major grower of
poppies) produced 893 metric tons of opium, in 2013, a 22 percent
growth from the previous year.

How can this be? Well Europe and the U.S. will buy, albeit illicitly,
just about all the opium products that a small country can produce and
not surprisingly to any student of economics where a market exists a
source will be found to supply it.

The current largest producer of poppies in the world is Afghanistan
with some 225,000 hectares ( 555,987 acres)in production.

What is the solution? Simple, penalize the users. If the demand is
reduced then the supply will also be reduced.

Is it politically possible in a country like the U.S.? Probably not.
--
cheers,

John B.
"What is the solution? Simple, penalize the users."

The net effect of the first hundred years of near-worldwide
heroin ban hasn't worked out all that well. Seems to have
merely kept the price up, encouraging supply.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

And thereby making the rich even richer as they deal it.

I heroin the MAIN reason the USA and Canada went into Afghanistan? LOL VBRG

Cheers


If heroin is the main reason that The U.S. and Canada went into
Afghanistan then they weren't very successful given that Afghanistan
is the single largest producer of Opium and its derivatives in the
world :-)
--
cheers,

John B.


I've heard that Afghanistan=opium and Iraq=oil for years
despite any rational evidence for either. The same wags used
to say Viet Nam=oil too. pfft.


Well whatever, but the largest cash crop, today, in Afghanistan is
Opium, and Hashish, or it's derivatives, and certainly oil is/was the
largest generator of foreign capital in Iraq. But Vietnam? Perhaps
rice?
--
cheers,

John B.

  #23  
Old August 3rd 19, 12:00 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 763
Default Off Topic

On Fri, 2 Aug 2019 08:53:52 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Friday, August 2, 2019 at 11:44:59 AM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
On 8/2/2019 10:23 AM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Friday, August 2, 2019 at 10:32:44 AM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 2 Aug 2019 07:16:35 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Friday, August 2, 2019 at 8:15:27 AM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
On 8/1/2019 10:22 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 01 Aug 2019 20:23:09 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 8/1/2019 7:29 PM, John B. wrote:
I know this is off topic but I don't find the answer anywhere else.

Today's news has Pres. Trump accusing the Chinese of continuing to
sell fentanyl to the United States -- "and many Americans continue to
die!"

But my research shows that fentanyl is a medical drug for the
alleviation of severe pain and as such I would assume to be a
controlled substance. How than, "many Americans continue to die!" ?
--
cheers,

John B.


Like the situation the past few years in Philippines[1],
where legal pharmaceutical stimulants were suddenly and
voluminously exceeded by imported methamphetamine from the
Norks, Red China and a new domestic industry, the bulk of
USA street Fentanyl is not rerouted anaesthetic
pharmaceuticals but rather imports from China and China
routed through Mexico.

This is not news:
https://www.news-herald.com/news/ohi...57599081b.html

Since the transfer cost of contraband is relatively fixed by
mass, imports tend to extremely powerful versions and
analogs, notably veterinary Carfentanyl

http://www.ottawapublichealth.ca/en/...rfentanil.aspx

[1] As with Mr Trump, Mr Duterte has reacted to a real
problem, You may disagree with either man's policy or style
or rhetoric, but the problems are indeed real. Facts are
stubborn things...

Frankly while the "solution" may seem to be to get the host country to
ban the substance, whatever it may be, in reality that doesn't work.
In the recent past Opium was legally sold in Laos. You could go to the
market and buy it.

Than the U.S. beat the Laotians over the head and got them to outlaw
opium and its depravities and while it was no longer sold in the
market the production of opium and its depravities actually grew and
today it is estimated that Laos and Myanmar (not the major grower of
poppies) produced 893 metric tons of opium, in 2013, a 22 percent
growth from the previous year.

How can this be? Well Europe and the U.S. will buy, albeit illicitly,
just about all the opium products that a small country can produce and
not surprisingly to any student of economics where a market exists a
source will be found to supply it.

The current largest producer of poppies in the world is Afghanistan
with some 225,000 hectares ( 555,987 acres)in production.

What is the solution? Simple, penalize the users. If the demand is
reduced then the supply will also be reduced.

Is it politically possible in a country like the U.S.? Probably not.
--
cheers,

John B.
"What is the solution? Simple, penalize the users."

The net effect of the first hundred years of near-worldwide
heroin ban hasn't worked out all that well. Seems to have
merely kept the price up, encouraging supply.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

And thereby making the rich even richer as they deal it.

I heroin the MAIN reason the USA and Canada went into Afghanistan? LOL VBRG

Cheers

If heroin is the main reason that The U.S. and Canada went into
Afghanistan then they weren't very successful given that Afghanistan
is the single largest producer of Opium and its derivatives in the
world :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

What I meant was did those two countries go into Afghanistan to SECURE the opium poppy trade/source? VBEG

Cheers


The Soviets, unencumbered by lawyers or reporters, made a
brutal effort in Afghanistan with worse results and also
brought home an opiate problem. More tar baby than treasure
trove IMHO.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


"Afghanistan, the Graveyard of Nations".

Cheers


During the 1800's Great Britain, perhaps the most powerful nation in
the world, fought a number of "wars" on the N.W. Frontier and in the
First Anglo-Afghan War G.B. invaded Afganstan, in 1839, with an army
of 21,000 men and some 38,000 Indian camp followers and 30,000 camels
to carry supplies. When the British withdrew, in 1842, the only
soldier to reach Jalalabad, British India, was Dr. William Brydon .

Who was it that said something about those who refuse to learn from
history are doomed to repeat it?
--
cheers,

John B.

  #24  
Old August 3rd 19, 01:41 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 763
Default Off Topic

On Fri, 2 Aug 2019 15:35:11 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Thursday, August 1, 2019 at 6:03:16 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, August 1, 2019 at 5:29:18 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
I know this is off topic but I don't find the answer anywhere else.

Today's news has Pres. Trump accusing the Chinese of continuing to
sell fentanyl to the United States -- "and many Americans continue to
die!"

But my research shows that fentanyl is a medical drug for the
alleviation of severe pain and as such I would assume to be a
controlled substance. How than, "many Americans continue to die!" ?


See https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/01/w...nyl-trump.html Fentanyl and all its variants are now controlled substances in China which, of course, does not stop illegal trade.

-- Jay Beattie.


Jay, Fentanyl was developed to be used as an injectable painkiller when all else fails. The people in the final stages of cancer and the like do not respond much to most of the pain killers on the market including the strongest forms of Morphine.

I read somewhere that it is extremely effective and it has a very
short time to peak effect - ~ 5 minutes, and it's effects only last
about an hour and is seen as ideal for surgery and obstetrical
anesthesia.

As of 2017, fentanyl was the most widely used synthetic opioid in
medicine. And Fentanyl patches for cancer pain are on the WHO List of
Essential Medicines.

Of course the drug dealers immediately started manufacturing it in pill form and with which it is extremely easy to misuse.

--
cheers,

John B.

  #25  
Old August 3rd 19, 01:50 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,105
Default Off Topic

On Friday, August 2, 2019 at 1:00:47 PM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
On Friday, August 2, 2019 at 1:15:27 PM UTC+1, AMuzi wrote:

The net effect of the first hundred years of near-worldwide
heroin ban hasn't worked out all that well. Seems to have
merely kept the price up, encouraging supply.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


The pure, theoretical, ivory tower solution is to legalise drugs, which instantly kills a lot of crime. I'm surprised that the Left, which also supports fewer people and abortion, hasn't yet twigged that cheap drugs is another eugenic solution to "too many people on Gaia." We'll see how the legalisation of cannabis works out.


So far, so good, dude.

My family owned a pharmacy that opened its doors in 1888 and had all sorts of ancient patent medicines stashed in the scary basement, many of which contained cocaine, heroine, marijuana -- and less fun stuff like strychnine and arsenic. My youth in the late '50s early '60s: https://storage.googleapis.com/hippo...16148838ac.jpg The old brick basement would give Edgar Allan Poe the willies.

There was, as you know, a long period when all the illegal drugs were not illegal. The opiate epidemic in the late 1880s that resulted in the eventual regulation of narcotics was barely worse than the current opioid epidemic. https://www.livescience.com/60559-op...-of-1800s.html Regulation has little effect on criminals and addicts, and now that we have an epidemic, doctors are refusing to prescribe opioids even when indicated. Compound fracture your leg and get an extra strength Tylenol because doctors are worried that they will get busted for prescribing opioids. The pendulum swing is bad for legitimate pain sufferers.

And to your point about liberals, unlike the conservatives who just go kill people https://www.history.com/.image/t_sha...p-murrah-f.jpg liberals simply allow people to choose death. Wouldn't you rather have the choice? Its all about making good choices. None of that nanny conservative government telling us what to do or not do. Liberals . . . protecting your right to choose death!

-- Jay Beattie.




  #26  
Old August 3rd 19, 02:06 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 763
Default Off Topic

On Fri, 2 Aug 2019 17:50:39 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie
wrote:

On Friday, August 2, 2019 at 1:00:47 PM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
On Friday, August 2, 2019 at 1:15:27 PM UTC+1, AMuzi wrote:

The net effect of the first hundred years of near-worldwide
heroin ban hasn't worked out all that well. Seems to have
merely kept the price up, encouraging supply.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


The pure, theoretical, ivory tower solution is to legalise drugs, which instantly kills a lot of crime. I'm surprised that the Left, which also supports fewer people and abortion, hasn't yet twigged that cheap drugs is another eugenic solution to "too many people on Gaia." We'll see how the legalisation of cannabis works out.


So far, so good, dude.

My family owned a pharmacy that opened its doors in 1888 and had all sorts of ancient patent medicines stashed in the scary basement, many of which contained cocaine, heroine, marijuana -- and less fun stuff like strychnine and arsenic. My youth in the late '50s early '60s: https://storage.googleapis.com/hippo...16148838ac.jpg The old brick basement would give Edgar Allan Poe the willies.

There was, as you know, a long period when all the illegal drugs were not illegal. The opiate epidemic in the late 1880s that resulted in the eventual regulation of narcotics was barely worse than the current opioid epidemic. https://www.livescience.com/60559-op...-of-1800s.html Regulation has little effect on criminals and addicts, and now that we have an epidemic, doctors are refusing to prescribe opioids even when indicated. Compound fracture your leg and get an extra strength Tylenol because doctors are worried that they will get busted for prescribing opioids. The pendulum swing is bad for legitimate pain sufferers.

And to your point about liberals, unlike the conservatives who just go kill people https://www.history.com/.image/t_sha...p-murrah-f.jpg liberals simply allow people to choose death. Wouldn't you rather have the choice? Its all about making good choices. None of that nanny conservative government telling us what to do or not do. Liberals . . . protecting your right to choose death!

-- Jay Beattie.


While it is difficult to determine accurately it is thought that
alcohol use may have actually increased after the Volstead Act was
enacted. Is the current bans on certain substances actually
contributing to their novelty status and actually increasing their
use? I'm thinking particularly of Cocaine which was, at one time, a
very up market drug and while the "gentry" might have objected to
stabbing themselves in the arm they certainly didn't seem to mind
snorting a little coke :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

  #27  
Old August 3rd 19, 02:28 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,625
Default Off Topic

On 8/2/2019 7:41 PM, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 2 Aug 2019 15:35:11 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Thursday, August 1, 2019 at 6:03:16 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, August 1, 2019 at 5:29:18 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
I know this is off topic but I don't find the answer anywhere else.

Today's news has Pres. Trump accusing the Chinese of continuing to
sell fentanyl to the United States -- "and many Americans continue to
die!"

But my research shows that fentanyl is a medical drug for the
alleviation of severe pain and as such I would assume to be a
controlled substance. How than, "many Americans continue to die!" ?

See https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/01/w...nyl-trump.html Fentanyl and all its variants are now controlled substances in China which, of course, does not stop illegal trade.

-- Jay Beattie.


Jay, Fentanyl was developed to be used as an injectable painkiller when all else fails. The people in the final stages of cancer and the like do not respond much to most of the pain killers on the market including the strongest forms of Morphine.

I read somewhere that it is extremely effective and it has a very
short time to peak effect - ~ 5 minutes, and it's effects only last
about an hour and is seen as ideal for surgery and obstetrical
anesthesia.

As of 2017, fentanyl was the most widely used synthetic opioid in
medicine. And Fentanyl patches for cancer pain are on the WHO List of
Essential Medicines.

Of course the drug dealers immediately started manufacturing it in pill form and with which it is extremely easy to misuse.

--
cheers,

John B.


I see in today's paper that the trendlines of rural and
urban OD deaths have crossed as now the old junkies, who
'know' a match head of 50% purity Heroin, are suddenly dying
of Fentanyl laced smack.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #28  
Old August 3rd 19, 02:33 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,625
Default Off Topic

On 8/2/2019 7:50 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, August 2, 2019 at 1:00:47 PM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
On Friday, August 2, 2019 at 1:15:27 PM UTC+1, AMuzi wrote:

The net effect of the first hundred years of near-worldwide
heroin ban hasn't worked out all that well. Seems to have
merely kept the price up, encouraging supply.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


The pure, theoretical, ivory tower solution is to legalise drugs, which instantly kills a lot of crime. I'm surprised that the Left, which also supports fewer people and abortion, hasn't yet twigged that cheap drugs is another eugenic solution to "too many people on Gaia." We'll see how the legalisation of cannabis works out.


So far, so good, dude.

My family owned a pharmacy that opened its doors in 1888 and had all sorts of ancient patent medicines stashed in the scary basement, many of which contained cocaine, heroine, marijuana -- and less fun stuff like strychnine and arsenic. My youth in the late '50s early '60s: https://storage.googleapis.com/hippo...16148838ac.jpg The old brick basement would give Edgar Allan Poe the willies.

There was, as you know, a long period when all the illegal drugs were not illegal. The opiate epidemic in the late 1880s that resulted in the eventual regulation of narcotics was barely worse than the current opioid epidemic. https://www.livescience.com/60559-op...-of-1800s.html Regulation has little effect on criminals and addicts, and now that we have an epidemic, doctors are refusing to prescribe opioids even when indicated. Compound fracture your leg and get an extra strength Tylenol because doctors are worried that they will get busted for prescribing opioids. The pendulum swing is bad for legitimate pain sufferers.

And to your point about liberals, unlike the conservatives who just go kill people https://www.history.com/.image/t_sha...p-murrah-f.jpg liberals simply allow people to choose death. Wouldn't you rather have the choice? Its all about making good choices. None of that nanny conservative government telling us what to do or not do. Liberals . . . protecting your right to choose death!

-- Jay Beattie.





I don't think this issue cleaves well along usual right-left
political lines. You have F A Hayek, Allen Ginsberg, Milton
Friedman and Abbie Hoffman together on one side...

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #29  
Old August 3rd 19, 11:06 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tosspot[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,330
Default Off Topic

On 03/08/2019 01:00, John B. wrote:

snip

During the 1800's Great Britain, perhaps the most powerful nation in
the world, fought a number of "wars" on the N.W. Frontier and in the
First Anglo-Afghan War G.B. invaded Afganstan, in 1839, with an army
of 21,000 men and some 38,000 Indian camp followers and 30,000 camels
to carry supplies. When the British withdrew, in 1842, the only
soldier to reach Jalalabad, British India, was Dr. William Brydon .

Who was it that said something about those who refuse to learn from
history are doomed to repeat it?


The one thing history teaches us, is it's not worth teaching history :-)
  #30  
Old August 3rd 19, 11:34 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 763
Default Off Topic

On Sat, 3 Aug 2019 12:06:36 +0200, Tosspot
wrote:

On 03/08/2019 01:00, John B. wrote:

snip

During the 1800's Great Britain, perhaps the most powerful nation in
the world, fought a number of "wars" on the N.W. Frontier and in the
First Anglo-Afghan War G.B. invaded Afganstan, in 1839, with an army
of 21,000 men and some 38,000 Indian camp followers and 30,000 camels
to carry supplies. When the British withdrew, in 1842, the only
soldier to reach Jalalabad, British India, was Dr. William Brydon .

Who was it that said something about those who refuse to learn from
history are doomed to repeat it?


The one thing history teaches us, is it's not worth teaching history :-)


Well, yes. The British Empire went back for "seconds" and "thirds"
and the final results were that Afghanistan won their complete
independence :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

 




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