Rules of Thumb

On Friday, May 20, 2016 at 8:16:03 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 5/19/2016 11:34 PM, John B. wrote:

Whatever became of all the "rules of thumb" that I used to read about
in the bike magazines.

I remember strict instructions that the front of the knee must be
directly over the center line of the pedal when the crank was
horizontal, and that the end of road bike handle bars should point at
the rear wheel axle. And when one is in the drops the handle bars
should "cover" the front wheel axle.

I remember those instructions. Personally, I never believed the
handlebar ones anyway. Seems to me handlebar pitch or tilt should be
whatever feels good to the rider.

And the "cover the axle" thing probably arose after an "expert" bike
tester for _Bicycling_ rode three road frames in a row and noticed that
similarity between them. It may have worked for that style frame, with
that rider's upper body, arm and neck length, but I can't imagine it
makes sense for every rider on every bike.

I even remember articles about how to tape the handle bars - this was
in the days of thin bar wrapping - and some folks even recommended a
layer of "air conditioning pipe insulation" applied to the bars before
wrapping with the tape.

I think what's happened there is that people have spotted all those tips
as being economic opportunities. "Heck, if people are using pipe
insulation for that, we can buy it in bulk, cut it to size, package it
and sell it. We'll get rich!"

Now all I read is "Ohhhh, that bike is Soooo stiff", and I even saw
one entitled "Ride without looking like a Rookie" and another "How to
enjoy a solo ride".

Not to mention "Get great looking legs!" and articles on just the right
outfit to wear when you ride to the coffee shop. $150 bicycle blue jeans!

BTW, a variation on the theme: My wife gets the Terry Bicycles catalog.
Georgena Terry was one of the earliest proponents of bikes designed to
better fit women riders. (Our daughter rides a Terry bike.) But the
catalog has devolved into a clothing store. There's no evidence that
they still bother selling bikes.

Note:

From http://www.womenscycling.ca/bl... "Cervélo believes that women-specific bikes aren’t necessary because, contrary to what consumers are told, men and women’s leg and torso proportions aren’t different—the only difference is between short and tall people. Heather Henderson, women–specific product manager for Trek Bicycles, confirms that. 'The idea that women’s leg and torso length is different than men’s is not based on fact, but neither is it being spread by the manufactures of WSD (women-specific-design) bikes. It’s an urban legend. Misinformed staff in bicycle stores help propagate the legend.'� It is a serious issue as clearly the geometry of the bike is being affected.

http://cyclingtips.com/2015/05/women...et-part-three/

Nonetheless, there are a lot of women-specific-designs out there, and women have become the new bicycle marketing frontier. Terry has been eclipsed and pushed more towards saddles and clothes.

Some people still preach the old KOPS position, but the insidious modern trend is turning bike fitting over to supposed experts who charge $250 a pop. My son got a super-discounted fitting from a shop he rides for. I jumped on his fitted bike and immediately noticed the saddle was tilted up and probably rocking his hips. We went out with four old-guy racer friends of mine who, like me, all thought his stem was too short. I'm not sure about the super-scientific fit thing.

-- Jay Beattie.

Well that is our understanding....


http://www.bing.com/search?q=COMPARI...6C29F20C00D6D1

a too short stem ? all stems are too short. install an adjustable stem. be human.

On Friday, May 20, 2016 at 8:00:27 PM UTC-4, wrote:
Well that is our understanding....


http://www.bing.com/search?q=COMPARI...6C29F20C00D6D1

a too short stem ? all stems are too short. install an adjustable stem. be human.

say howabout a photo of

'four old-guy racer friends of mine '

we're curious abt the real cyclists of Portland ....

https://goo.gl/eu2EN7

On Fri, 20 May 2016 07:04:54 +0200, Emanuel Berg
wrote:

John B. writes:

Whatever became of all the "rules of thumb"
that I used to read about in the
bike magazines.

I remember strict instructions that the front
of the knee must be directly over the center
line of the pedal when the crank was
horizontal, and that the end of road bike
handle bars should point at the rear wheel
axle. And when one is in the drops the handle
bars should "cover" the front wheel axle.

Wonderful

I'd like to read those magazines cover to
cover...

You'll need a "way back machine" to get back to the 1980's maybe
90's....

Are bicycles now so standardized that we now
don't have to be told how to adjust handle
bars? Or does the LBS now do it for us?

Even so, there are still many bikes around that
are 30+ more years old...

But I don't think that is it anyway. I think
people just don't enjoy repairing and tweaking
things. I don't think it is them being stupid
or lazy, rather they were never exposed to it
enough (some not at all), so they don't have
that initial confidence to just get going,
before they find out, hey, it is not *that*
difficult, and it is fun as well!
--
cheers,

John B.

On Fri, 20 May 2016 08:47:02 -0000 (UTC), Yin goo
wrote:

Emanuel Berg wrote:
John B. writes:

Whatever became of all the "rules of thumb"
that I used to read about in the
bike magazines.

I remember strict instructions that the front
of the knee must be directly over the center
line of the pedal when the crank was
horizontal, and that the end of road bike
handle bars should point at the rear wheel
axle. And when one is in the drops the handle
bars should "cover" the front wheel axle.

Wonderful

I'd like to read those magazines cover to
cover...

Are bicycles now so standardized that we now
don't have to be told how to adjust handle
bars? Or does the LBS now do it for us?

Even so, there are still many bikes around that
are 30+ more years old...

But I don't think that is it anyway. I think
people just don't enjoy repairing and tweaking
things. I don't think it is them being stupid
or lazy, rather they were never exposed to it
enough (some not at all), so they don't have
that initial confidence to just get going,
before they find out, hey, it is not *that*
difficult, and it is fun as well!


That I find this sentiment overly generous I hope doesn't reflect poorly on
my personality, but this isn't my experience in the main. Many of my
friends and colleagues are of the dump it and buy new persuasion, and
whilst the internet initially was of help in learning to fix what one
already possessed, now, so often I encounter variations on the phrase "if
you have to ask ... you'll never understand". In quick retrospect, I guess
this superior attitude, held largely by those entirely undeserving of it,
is fairly standard, but it's a shame that it continues to propagate.

Wow! Ok, I feel better now.

On the other hand, saddle height, and fore and aft position make a
world of difference and handle bar height and stem length, and all the
other things that can be adjusted.

But instead of articles on how to adjust your bike I see articles
about "How to look like a cool guy on your new bike".

Are the modern day cyclists satisfied to buy a new bike and just leap
in and ride the way the bike shop set it up until next year's model
arrives?

--
cheers,

John B.

On 5/20/2016 6:58 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2016 at 8:16:03 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:

BTW, a variation on the theme: My wife gets the Terry Bicycles catalog.
Georgena Terry was one of the earliest proponents of bikes designed to
better fit women riders. (Our daughter rides a Terry bike.) But the
catalog has devolved into a clothing store. There's no evidence that
they still bother selling bikes.

Note:

From http://www.womenscycling.ca/bl... "Cervélo believes that women-specific bikes aren’t necessary because, contrary to what consumers are told, men and women’s leg and torso proportions aren’t different—the only difference is between short and tall people. Heather Henderson, women–specific product manager for Trek Bicycles, confirms that. 'The idea that women’s leg and torso length is different than men’s is not based on fact, but neither is it being spread by the manufactures of WSD (women-specific-design) bikes. It’s an urban legend. Misinformed staff in bicycle stores help propagate the legend.'� It is a serious issue as clearly the geometry of the bike is being affected.

http://cyclingtips.com/2015/05/women...et-part-three/

Nonetheless, there are a lot of women-specific-designs out there, and women have become the new bicycle marketing frontier. Terry has been eclipsed and pushed more towards saddles and clothes.

Some people still preach the old KOPS position, but the insidious modern trend is turning bike fitting over to supposed experts who charge $250 a pop. My son got a super-discounted fitting from a shop he rides for. I jumped on his fitted bike and immediately noticed the saddle was tilted up and probably rocking his hips. We went out with four old-guy racer friends of mine who, like me, all thought his stem was too short. I'm not sure about the super-scientific fit thing.

Yes, I've heard that the different body proportions between men and
women (i.e. leg length compared to torso length) was a myth - or more
accurately, that any individual difference is subsumed by individual
differences.

I think the main thing Georgena Terry concentrated on (or still
concentrates on?) is the undeniable fact that women are shorter than men
on average. It was her contention that for people under a certain size
(maybe 5'5" as a wild guess?) shrinking a bike with two 700c wheels will
ruin handling and/or comfort, due in part to the need to avoid excessive
wheel-to-pedal overlap. Hence the small wheels (about 24") in the
smaller frame sizes - an idea she borrowed from Bill Boston, IIRC.

I do know that my daughter rode my wife's old mixte frame for many
years, including on some bike tours. When she completed her degree, we
promised her a nice bike. She test rode many, but really loved the fit
and feel of the Terry. She said she never felt so comfortable on a
bike, including our tandem. She's about 5'2" tall, IIRC.

So more briefly, maybe it's just shorter people that feel more
comfortable on "women specific" bikes. (I do recall one male friend who
rode a Bill Boston bike with a smaller front wheel.)

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 5/20/2016 5:06 PM, Mark J. wrote:
On 5/20/2016 3:56 AM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:

Times have changed and in some ways not for the better.

I would agree, except this is /not/ a change from 30 years ago, IMHO.
Maybe from 40 years ago.
Who here remembers "Bike World"? (US publication)

My hand's raised!


--
- Frank Krygowski

John B. writes:

You'll need a "way back machine" to get back
to the 1980's maybe 90's....

If I had one, I would configure it for 1994 and
go to Ibiza with my friend E and listen to
Eurodisco for one week without sleep. Then I'd
do back to the present and hopefully that
"trip" would cure my hangover in the bargain...

--
underground experts united .... http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
Emacs Gnus Blogomatic ......... http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/blogomatic
- so far: 37 Blogomatic articles -

On Fri, 20 May 2016 03:56:40 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Thursday, May 19, 2016 at 11:34:26 PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
Whatever became of all the "rules of thumb" that I used to read about
in the bike magazines.

I remember strict instructions that the front of the knee must be
directly over the center line of the pedal when the crank was
horizontal, and that the end of road bike handle bars should point at
the rear wheel axle. And when one is in the drops the handle bars
should "cover" the front wheel axle.

I even remember articles about how to tape the handle bars - this was
in the days of thin bar wrapping - and some folks even recommended a
layer of "air conditioning pipe insulation" applied to the bars before
wrapping with the tape.

Now all I read is "Ohhhh, that bike is Soooo stiff", and I even saw
one entitled "Ride without looking like a Rookie" and another "How to
enjoy a solo ride".

Are bicycles now so standardized that we now don't have to be told how
to adjust handle bars? Or does the LBS now do it for us?

I even came across an article "Race Back in Time at L'Eroica" a story
about riding a steel frame bicycle that had toe clips and down tube
shifters while wearing a wool jersey.

(I think that old age has crept up behind me when I wasn't looking :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

So many of those old tips have been debunked or otherwise become dropped by the wayside. KOOPS has a The Myth of KOPS on Sheldon's sight. THe hub/handlebar one is no longer followed.

Yes, True. But... if your knees hurt the KOP rule is certainly a good
place to start.

What I miss in bicycling magazines we the actual articles that told you how to fix something or how to ride or where to ride or whatever it was they were promoting. Now it seems as though bicycle mechanics is fast becoming/has become Don't fix it replace it. Look at posts in this group where someone asks how to fix something on a bike from the 1980s or 1990s and most times the majority of replies twll the poster to buy a new bike.

Bicycling magaizines now seem to be more focused on the adevertisers than on the bicyclists.

From what I have read (more innuendo then fact) I believe that most
publications' income is primarily from adverts, not from
subscriptions, although the number of subscribers certainly is
reflected in the price charged for advert space.

Given that a single page advert is likely to be costing thousands of
dollars a month I can see why the advertisers are the driving force in
the business.

Times have changed and in some ways not for the better.

Cheers
--
cheers,

John B.