#21
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Cartridge bearings
On 5/23/2016 5:25 AM, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 22 May 2016 22:54:56 -0500, Tim McNamara wrote: On Mon, 23 May 2016 08:48:32 +0700, John B wrote: I used to read Brandt's posts, but sometimes I thought he got carried away with nomenclature. The "chain stretch" is an example. No, the chain does not stretch, as in elastic band, but it does get longer, so what do we say? We say what it is: chain wear. It's simple enough, why obfuscate it? Of course it is chain wear. But frankly few people actually are completely descriptive in speaking. We say "bike" for bicycles and motorcycles. Some people say "cool" meaning "calm self-control (especially in trying circumstances) or unemotional" and others mean it isn't warm. We say "post" meaning a stake in the ground or the mail. And, and, and... I think that issues arise when such shortcut verbiage leads to misunderstanding of the phenomena, and to weird proposals for "improvements." Someone who really believes chains stretch (in the sense of metal yielding and elongating) may propose chains with thicker side plates to resist the "stretch" that comes from climbing mountains. That would, of course, be ineffective. And IIRC, there have been posters in the past who were firmly convinced that their manly quads were capable of literally and permanently stretching chain. There are still, I believe, people who think their grip on the brake lever permanently stretch their brake cables. -- - Frank Krygowski |
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#22
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Cartridge bearings
On 5/23/2016 9:16 AM, Phil W Lee wrote:
"Ian Field" considered Sun, 22 May 2016 20:17:08 +0100 the perfect time to write: Around the 80s or 90s, aftermarket taper roller headset bearings were all the rage for motorcycles. At the time, they were heavily advertised as the must have accesory. And they were a good, inexpensive and long lasting improvement, too - so much so that most production motorcycles now use them from the factory. It's been my contention for a long time that a properly designed bicycle fork should have the flexibility in it's legs, not the steerer, and that if this is the case (as it used to be on the delicately curved and tapered fork legs of yore) taper rollers are equally valuable on pedal cycles. Interesting. Our 1986 Cannondale touring bikes came with Stronglite A-9 roller bearing headsets. Those bikes are not light by today's standards. They have massively rigid frame tubes, and ours has fairly thin-looking steel forks. I doubt they tried to make the steerer tube very thin, so perhaps the fork flex is largely confined to the blades. The A-9 on my bike lasted for decades before I had to replace the lower roller bearing's races. The replacement races are still fine. My wife's (with far fewer miles) still has the original parts, IIRC. Perhaps the long life is due in part to the rigidity of the frame and steerer tube. I guess the A-9 is out of production now. Maybe I should search out some NOS repair bits before they vanish. -- - Frank Krygowski |
#23
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Cartridge bearings
On 2016-05-22 19:26, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 22 May 2016 08:35:56 -0700, Joerg wrote: On 2016-05-21 23:14, John B. wrote: On Sat, 21 May 2016 16:26:05 -0700, Joerg wrote: On 2016-05-21 16:13, John B. wrote: I came across an advertisement for a frame and the description said "HEADSET 1" cartridge bearing". I have never seen a 1" head set that used "cartridge" bearings. Is there such a thing and can anyone point me to one? Voila: http://www.amazon.com/Origin8-Pro-Th.../dp/B002J97EGS Interesting. I had never seen one. I was thinking about replacing my miserable Shimano 600 contraption with one of these. Mine always shakes loose on rough roads. I believe if I had that problem I would (1) buy a new quality head set, and (2) have the top and bottom of the head tube reamed and faced to ensure that the ends were exactly at right angle to the tube and flat. And, that the head set races were properly installed using a press of some sort. Not a BFH. (BFH's work but require more skill to achieve a perfect installation) I don't mind a little slack in the steerer as long as the thing doesn't come all the way loose on a rough stretch. Another thing, there is play in the steer tube threads and after the threaded race is adjusted perfectly tightening lock nut will likely change things. Yes, but by know I just jam it all down. I don't want to fuss around with it but ride :-) I might comment that I have a Shimano 600 head set on one of my bikes that has never come loose :-) It it this type with the knurled nuts? http://imgs.inkfrog.com/pix/coronade...Headset_02.JPG How hard do you torque down the top nut? Mine works ok on regular roads but it does come loose on gravel roads and dilapidated old highways. Also during even the shortest offroad stretch if sufficiently gnarly. I use thick leather plus vise grips to tighten it and give it a lot of muscle. Maybe I should add a pipe extension for even more torque. I've even thought about filing down the nuts to get rid of this nonsensical knurl so I can use regular wrenches. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ |
#24
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Cartridge bearings
On 2016-05-22 17:17, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 5/22/2016 6:18 PM, Joerg wrote: On 2016-05-22 14:11, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 5/22/2016 11:40 AM, Joerg wrote: On 2016-05-22 07:26, jbeattie wrote: On Saturday, May 21, 2016 at 11:15:48 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote: On Sat, 21 May 2016 16:47:01 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie wrote: On Saturday, May 21, 2016 at 4:13:24 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote: I came across an advertisement for a frame and the description said "HEADSET 1" cartridge bearing". I have never seen a 1" head set that used "cartridge" bearings. Is there such a thing and can anyone point me to one? Basically every 1" Shimano road headset after what, about 1990? Sir should know. -- Jay Beattie Oh! Modern Bikes? I've never owned one :-) -- cheers, John B. Jobst noted that Shimano licensed its angular-contact cartridge bearing from Wilderness Trail, which I guess was a tribute to that company. http://yarchive.net/bike/head_bearing.html Interesting. I wonder why Jobst dismissed the notion of "my chain stretched from climbing steep hills". It's something I clearly experienced in Europe. When riding flatlands a chain could easily last 3000mi. When I rode in the hills of East Belgium I was lucky if I got 2000mi. Lots of mashing. Jobst was an engineer who clearly understood thing like forces, stresses, yield strength, etc. Even a dim understanding of those principles allows one to understand you're not stretching the metal of the chain. Where did I say that? Jobst was also excellent at understanding detailed interactions of various mechanical components, and he was better than most engineers at tribology. That allowed him to understand what many people call chain "stretch." So how do you explain the differences noticed above? Voodoo? Extraterrestrial influence? Belgian beer? Hint: These were always the same chains. I bought a large stack of them in a bulk deal. No voodoo necessary. Look into the effect of normal load on friction and wear. Perhaps you could start with a physics book, then progress to a book on the design of machine elements. Ah, you are beginning to find out the answer yourself. Ask yourself this: Why is it that the chain on a one-cylinder offroad motorcycle ridden on paved roads wears faster if the motorcycle isn't fitted with a rubber-buffered sprocket assembly? -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ |
#25
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Cartridge bearings
On 2016-05-22 19:35, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 22 May 2016 08:40:26 -0700, Joerg wrote: On 2016-05-22 07:26, jbeattie wrote: On Saturday, May 21, 2016 at 11:15:48 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote: On Sat, 21 May 2016 16:47:01 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie wrote: On Saturday, May 21, 2016 at 4:13:24 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote: I came across an advertisement for a frame and the description said "HEADSET 1" cartridge bearing". I have never seen a 1" head set that used "cartridge" bearings. Is there such a thing and can anyone point me to one? Basically every 1" Shimano road headset after what, about 1990? Sir should know. -- Jay Beattie Oh! Modern Bikes? I've never owned one :-) -- cheers, John B. Jobst noted that Shimano licensed its angular-contact cartridge bearing from Wilderness Trail, which I guess was a tribute to that company. http://yarchive.net/bike/head_bearing.html Interesting. I wonder why Jobst dismissed the notion of "my chain stretched from climbing steep hills". It's something I clearly experienced in Europe. When riding flatlands a chain could easily last 3000mi. When I rode in the hills of East Belgium I was lucky if I got 2000mi. Lots of mashing. It is a matter of nomenclature. A chain doesn't stretch the way a rubber band stretches. A chain elongates due to wear. But in colloquial English the terms stretch and elongate are frequently used interchangeably. It might be said that when something stretches it does elongate but when something elongates it doesn't necessarily stretch. The effect is elongation but, of course, the "stretch" is all in the pins. They seem to wear down faster when there is regular uphill mashing versus rides where one applies constant power most of the time. It's the same with cars. Front wheel drive cars suffer in their universal joints worse if drivers "step on it" in curves versus gentle riders. At least it used to be like that. Those joints were kind of smallish compared to the big one in the drive shaft on a rear wheel driven car. I am a gentle rider but still had to replace a worn joint in my Citroen 2CV when I was young. (Rather like, "a Beetle is always a bug, but a bug is not always a beetle :-) At Volkswagen it is :-) -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ |
#26
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Cartridge bearings
On Monday, May 23, 2016 at 8:15:12 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 5/23/2016 9:16 AM, Phil W Lee wrote: "Ian Field" considered Sun, 22 May 2016 20:17:08 +0100 the perfect time to write: Around the 80s or 90s, aftermarket taper roller headset bearings were all the rage for motorcycles. At the time, they were heavily advertised as the must have accesory. And they were a good, inexpensive and long lasting improvement, too - so much so that most production motorcycles now use them from the factory. It's been my contention for a long time that a properly designed bicycle fork should have the flexibility in it's legs, not the steerer, and that if this is the case (as it used to be on the delicately curved and tapered fork legs of yore) taper rollers are equally valuable on pedal cycles. Interesting. Our 1986 Cannondale touring bikes came with Stronglite A-9 roller bearing headsets. Those bikes are not light by today's standards. They have massively rigid frame tubes, and ours has fairly thin-looking steel forks. I doubt they tried to make the steerer tube very thin, so perhaps the fork flex is largely confined to the blades. The A-9 on my bike lasted for decades before I had to replace the lower roller bearing's races. The replacement races are still fine. My wife's (with far fewer miles) still has the original parts, IIRC. Perhaps the long life is due in part to the rigidity of the frame and steerer tube. I guess the A-9 is out of production now. Maybe I should search out some NOS repair bits before they vanish. The A-9 on my T1000 died for reasons I don't recall. I threw in a Deore of the day, and it lasted until I went to a 1" threadless (changed the fork) and then gave the frame away. The current angle contact bearings on my fleet are just fine, and I can't remember the last time I replaced a failed bearing or race. I put in a new headset on my commuter, but that's because the OE headset was cheap (caged open bearing hybrid integrated design) and poorly sealed and prone to creaking with lots of wet weather riding -- and 15 or more years old. A simple angle contact bearing headset like the threaded Ultegra (and the many, many other similar headsets) seems to be more than adequate for the job. -- Jay Beattie. |
#27
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Cartridge bearings
"jbeattie" wrote in message ... On Monday, May 23, 2016 at 8:15:12 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 5/23/2016 9:16 AM, Phil W Lee wrote: "Ian Field" considered Sun, 22 May 2016 20:17:08 +0100 the perfect time to write: Around the 80s or 90s, aftermarket taper roller headset bearings were all the rage for motorcycles. At the time, they were heavily advertised as the must have accesory. And they were a good, inexpensive and long lasting improvement, too - so much so that most production motorcycles now use them from the factory. It's been my contention for a long time that a properly designed bicycle fork should have the flexibility in it's legs, not the steerer, and that if this is the case (as it used to be on the delicately curved and tapered fork legs of yore) taper rollers are equally valuable on pedal cycles. Interesting. Our 1986 Cannondale touring bikes came with Stronglite A-9 roller bearing headsets. Those bikes are not light by today's standards. They have massively rigid frame tubes, and ours has fairly thin-looking steel forks. I doubt they tried to make the steerer tube very thin, so perhaps the fork flex is largely confined to the blades. The A-9 on my bike lasted for decades before I had to replace the lower roller bearing's races. The replacement races are still fine. My wife's (with far fewer miles) still has the original parts, IIRC. Perhaps the long life is due in part to the rigidity of the frame and steerer tube. I guess the A-9 is out of production now. Maybe I should search out some NOS repair bits before they vanish. The A-9 on my T1000 died for reasons I don't recall. I threw in a Deore of the day, and it lasted until I went to a 1" threadless (changed the fork) and then gave the frame away. The current angle contact bearings on my fleet are just fine, and I can't remember the last time I replaced a failed bearing or race. The only headset bearings I ever had trouble with were on very old salvaged bikes that had been left in the weather long enough to wash the grease out. Those usually had so much else wrong that I was too busy patching it up until something less derelict came along. |
#28
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Cartridge bearings
On 24/05/16 02:05, Joerg wrote:
The effect is elongation but, of course, the "stretch" is all in the pins. They seem to wear down faster when there is regular uphill mashing versus rides where one applies constant power most of the time. If you change to a smaller chain ring to ride up a steep hill, the leverage you have over the chain is significantly increased, hence chain tension is significantly increased, and wear. -- JS |
#29
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Cartridge bearings
On 2016-05-23 15:10, James wrote:
On 24/05/16 02:05, Joerg wrote: The effect is elongation but, of course, the "stretch" is all in the pins. They seem to wear down faster when there is regular uphill mashing versus rides where one applies constant power most of the time. If you change to a smaller chain ring to ride up a steep hill, the leverage you have over the chain is significantly increased, hence chain tension is significantly increased, and wear. I know. Similar when standing in the pedals a lot which is what I had to do on account of 42T being the smallest chain ring. I've recently eased that by fitting 11-32T instead of the old 11-21T in back which is the max the old Shimano 600 derailer could take. In consequence I rarely have to stand in the pedals and got a hundreds of extra miles out of my last Wippermann chain. The routes on my road bike are almost the same week to week and no matter where I go I always have to slog back up to 1450ft where I live. Now you only have to explain that to Frank :-) -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ |
#30
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Cartridge bearings
On Monday, May 23, 2016 at 11:50:05 AM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-05-22 19:26, John B. wrote: On Sun, 22 May 2016 08:35:56 -0700, Joerg wrote: On 2016-05-21 23:14, John B. wrote: On Sat, 21 May 2016 16:26:05 -0700, Joerg wrote: On 2016-05-21 16:13, John B. wrote: I came across an advertisement for a frame and the description said "HEADSET 1" cartridge bearing". I have never seen a 1" head set that used "cartridge" bearings. Is there such a thing and can anyone point me to one? Voila: http://www.amazon.com/Origin8-Pro-Th.../dp/B002J97EGS Interesting. I had never seen one. I was thinking about replacing my miserable Shimano 600 contraption with one of these. Mine always shakes loose on rough roads. I believe if I had that problem I would (1) buy a new quality head set, and (2) have the top and bottom of the head tube reamed and faced to ensure that the ends were exactly at right angle to the tube and flat. And, that the head set races were properly installed using a press of some sort. Not a BFH. (BFH's work but require more skill to achieve a perfect installation) I don't mind a little slack in the steerer as long as the thing doesn't come all the way loose on a rough stretch. Another thing, there is play in the steer tube threads and after the threaded race is adjusted perfectly tightening lock nut will likely change things. Yes, but by know I just jam it all down. I don't want to fuss around with it but ride :-) I might comment that I have a Shimano 600 head set on one of my bikes that has never come loose :-) It it this type with the knurled nuts? http://imgs.inkfrog.com/pix/coronade...Headset_02.JPG How hard do you torque down the top nut? Mine works ok on regular roads but it does come loose on gravel roads and dilapidated old highways. Also during even the shortest offroad stretch if sufficiently gnarly. I use thick leather plus vise grips to tighten it and give it a lot of muscle. Maybe I should add a pipe extension for even more torque. I've even thought about filing down the nuts to get rid of this nonsensical knurl so I can use regular wrenches. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ Is the 600 headset you're using the one with the scalloped nuts? You need to use TWO wrenches to adjust a headset. You snug the cup to the proper tighteness and then you hod that nut in position with one wrench and then you use the second wrench to tighten the locknut. If you don't adjst the headset properly or tighten the locknut properly then it's no surprise thatt he headset comes loose. That's not a problem with the headset but with the user. Cheers |
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