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Is Mike Vandeman finally dead?



 
 
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  #1  
Old June 6th 13, 11:01 AM posted to rec.bicycles.soc
Blackblade
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Posts: 274
Default Is Mike Vandeman finally dead?

Mr. Vandeman and I have never yet heard a good argument for
permitting mountain biking on hiking trails. Until we do, we shall remain
steadfast in our opposition to this inappropriate use of hiking trails.


And, in your mind, you never will. Your mind is closed on the subject, don't know if quite as irretrievably as the criminal Vandeman, but you will discount any argument advanced to support the proposition.

There are several valid propositions to support it;

1. People are entitled to use a public resource; it does not belong to any one activity group

2. Environmental impact, whilst hotly contested by some, is broadly equivalent to other low-impact uses so the activity cannot be banned on that basis

3. It is a low risk (0.000123 fatalities per million miles travelled [US figures estimated]) activity and highly beneficial to cardiovascular health

4. It cannot be tenable to ban it simply because it is a 'new' use and will discomfort some existing users. On that basis, as has already been pointed out, slavery, misogyny, racism and homophobia would all be justifiable.

5. Sensible and equitable trail sharing IS possible ... despite assertions to the contrary. Not on all trails ... but on most.

6. Getting people off their backsides and exercising in the countryside is good for their health and good for their appreciation of, and thus consideration for, nature.

I rejoice every time a mountain biker is killed or injured while biking on a
hiking trail. Good riddance to bad rubbish !


"No man is an Iland, intire of it selfe; every man is a peece of the Continent, a part of the maine; if a Clod bee washed away by the Sea, Europe is the lesse, as well as if a Promontorie were, as well as if a Mannor of thy friends or of thine own were; any mans death diminishes me, because I am involved in Mankinde; And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; It tolls for thee." - John Donne

To rejoice in another's death or injury, when that person has not wronged you, is to become rather less human.
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  #2  
Old June 7th 13, 05:30 AM posted to rec.bicycles.soc
EdwardDolan
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Posts: 538
Default Is Mike Vandeman finally dead?

"Blackblade" wrote in message ...

Mr. Vandeman and I have never yet heard a good argument for
permitting mountain biking on hiking trails. Until we do, we shall remain
steadfast in our opposition to this inappropriate use of hiking trails.


And, in your mind, you never will. Your mind is closed on the subject, don't know if quite as irretrievably as the criminal Vandeman, but you will discount any argument advanced to support the proposition.


There are several valid propositions to support it;


1. People are entitled to use a public resource; it does not belong to any one activity group


All public resources must be managed. They cannot be managed to please everyone. Hiking trails are best managed to please just one group – hikers! What’s the matter? Can’t walk?

2. Environmental impact, whilst hotly contested by some, is broadly equivalent to other low-impact uses so the activity cannot be banned on that basis


We have all seen trails that have been ruined by mountain bikers. Mr. Vandeman is the expert on that subject.

3. It is a low risk (0.000123 fatalities per million miles travelled [US figures estimated]) activity and highly beneficial to cardiovascular health


ERs are being flooded with injuries and fatalities from mountain biking on hiking trails. If you had even an ounce of common sense you would know how dangerous it is. Some extreme jerks are even encouraging children to take up the sport.

4. It cannot be tenable to ban it simply because it is a 'new' use and will discomfort some existing users. On that basis, as has already been pointed out, slavery, misogyny, racism and homophobia would all be justifiable.


Mountain biking has been around long enough to come to some conclusions about it. It is not that new!

5. Sensible and equitable trail sharing IS possible ... despite assertions to the contrary. Not on all trails ... but on most.


Even if it were possible, I would be against it on esthetic grounds. Mountain biking is a sport, hiking is a religion. The two things don’t go together.

6. Getting people off their backsides and exercising in the countryside is good for their health and good for their appreciation of, and thus consideration for, nature.


I have a mountain bike myself which I ride on the gravel roads hereabouts. Minnesota has thousands of miles of such roads and are ideal for mountain bikes. Mountain bikers are hardly ever are in a position to appreciate nature. They are always going too fast. You have to go slow to appreciate and to consider nature.

I rejoice every time a mountain biker is killed or injured while biking on a
hiking trail. Good riddance to bad rubbish !


"No man is an Iland, intire of it selfe; every man is a peece of the Continent, a part of the maine; if a Clod bee washed away by the Sea, Europe is the lesse, as well as if a Promontorie were, as well as if a Mannor of thy friends or of thine own were; any mans death diminishes me, because I am involved in Mankinde; And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; It tolls for thee." - John Donne


To rejoice in another's death or injury, when that person has not wronged you, is to become rather less human.


It is brute reality. Get used to it. We hikers hate mountain bikers on our sacred trails. Get your own trails and stay off of ours!

Ed Dolan the Great
aka
Saint Edward the Great


  #3  
Old June 7th 13, 01:19 PM posted to rec.bicycles.soc
Blackblade
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Posts: 274
Default Is Mike Vandeman finally dead?

All public resources must be managed. They cannot be managed
to please everyone. Hiking trails are best managed to please just one group
hikers! Whats the matter? Cant walk?


Why must they be managed purely to please hikers ? How on earth do you justify that ?

We have all seen trails that have been ruined by mountain
bikers. Mr. Vandeman is the expert on that subject.


I have jousted with Vandeman several times. He writes nonsense and he has, in alt.mountain-bike, admitted actions that, despite all his protestations, show that he was correctly convicted of battery. I tried debating in a reasonable fashion with him but his inane conversation inevitably degenerates into calling everyone liars when they point out the gaping flaws in his assertions or logic. If that's your 'expert' I suggest you find a better one PDQ.

ERs are being flooded with injuries and fatalities from
mountain biking on hiking trails. If you had even an ounce of common sense you
would know how dangerous it is. Some extreme jerks are even encouraging children
to take up the sport.


Do you understand maths ? If there are close to 50 million people riding in the US then, even for a very low risk activity, there will be a fair number of injuries and even some fatalities. However, statistically, the risk is way lower than driving ... and is also way lower than dying of ischaemic heart disease which is an order of magnitude higher. Bottom line, you are far LESS likely to die if you take up mountain biking as opposed to sit on your butt in front of the TV.

Even if it were possible, I would be against it on esthetic
grounds. Mountain biking is a sport, hiking is a religion. The two things dont
go together.


Says who ? This is an assertion without any factual backup. I accept that it is what you feel ... but feelings are not normally valid reasons to take policy decisions.

I have a mountain bike myself which I ride on the gravel roads
hereabouts. Minnesota has thousands of miles of such roads and are ideal for
mountain bikes. Mountain bikers are hardly ever are in a* position to
appreciate nature. They are always going too fast. You have to go slow to
appreciate and to consider nature.


Two rebuttals. 1. As long as they don't hurt anyone else, it is not for anyone to determine how others enjoy nature and, 2. Mountain bikes go slowly uphill and stop periodically ... giving ample opportunity to enjoy the environment.

It is brute reality. Get used to it. We hikers hate mountain
bikers on our sacred trails. Get your own trails and stay off of
ours!


It's YOUR reality. I very much doubt there are too many others who feel that way. It's as inapplicable to the overall situation as my stating that, where I live, hike and ride there is no animosity. It's a personal experience; what evidence do you have that others share your hatred ?

And, even if they did, such emotional baggage is not valid grounds for making any kind of decision. That needs cool heads and logic ... not emotive rabble rousing.
  #4  
Old June 8th 13, 07:54 AM posted to rec.bicycles.soc
EdwardDolan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 538
Default Is Mike Vandeman finally dead?

"Blackblade" wrote in message ...

All public resources must be managed. They cannot be managed
to please everyone. Hiking trails are best managed to please just one group
hikers! Whats the matter? Cant walk?


Why must they be managed purely to please hikers ? How on earth do you justify that ?


Hikers arent pleased when they have to step aside for cyclists or worse, get hit by them.

We have all seen trails that have been ruined by mountain
bikers. Mr. Vandeman is the expert on that subject.


I have jousted with Vandeman several times. He writes nonsense and he has, in alt.mountain-bike, admitted actions that, despite all his protestations, show that he was correctly convicted of battery. I tried debating in a reasonable fashion with him but his inane conversation inevitably degenerates into calling everyone liars when they point out the gaping flaws in his assertions or logic. If that's your 'expert' I suggest you find a better one PDQ.


I know My Vandeman a thousand times better than you do. What you have to say about him is water off a ducks back to me.

ERs are being flooded with injuries and fatalities from
mountain biking on hiking trails. If you had even an ounce of common sense you
would know how dangerous it is. Some extreme jerks are even encouraging children
to take up the sport.


Do you understand maths ? If there are close to 50 million people riding in the US then, even for a very low risk activity, there will be a fair number of injuries and even some fatalities. However, statistically, the risk is way lower than driving ... and is also way lower than dying of ischaemic heart disease which is an order of magnitude higher. Bottom line, you are far LESS likely to die if you take up mountain biking as opposed to sit on your butt in front of the TV.


There are not 50 million cyclists riding mountain bikes on hiking trails. People die of heart disease after living a long life. Those cyclists who do ride their bikes on hiking trails are at high risk of injury and even death. If you had any common sense you would know that.

Even if it were possible, I would be against it on esthetic
grounds. Mountain biking is a sport, hiking is a religion. The two things dont
go together.


Says who ? This is an assertion without any factual backup. I accept that it is what you feel ... but feelings are not normally valid reasons to take policy decisions.


You must be blind and deaf as well as senseless. Mountain bikers and hikers are on trails for entirely different reasons. I am too weary to bother to explain those differences to someone who refuses to acknowledge that they even exist.

I have a mountain bike myself which I ride on the gravel roads
hereabouts. Minnesota has thousands of miles of such roads and are ideal for
mountain bikes. Mountain bikers are hardly ever are in a position to
appreciate nature. They are always going too fast. You have to go slow to
appreciate and to consider nature.


Two rebuttals. 1. As long as they don't hurt anyone else, it is not for anyone to determine how others enjoy nature and, 2. Mountain bikes go slowly uphill and stop periodically ... giving ample opportunity to enjoy the environment.


I am telling you that mountain bikers do hurt hikers just by their very presence on a trail. Mountain bikers are not there to enjoy the environment, They are there for thrills and spills. A group of mountain bikers is like a gang of hoodlums. Equestrians hate the lot of you even more than hikers.

It is brute reality. Get used to it. We hikers hate mountain
bikers on our sacred trails. Get your own trails and stay off of
ours!


It's YOUR reality. I very much doubt there are too many others who feel that way. It's as inapplicable to the overall situation as my stating that, where I live, hike and ride there is no animosity. It's a personal experience; what evidence do you have that others share your hatred ?


I am on a list of recipients of emails which more than back up every word of mine. It may be that you there in Scotland have found a special place where all is peace. But it is strife and rancor in most of America. There is no getting along with one another such as you experience.

And, even if they did, such emotional baggage is not valid grounds for making any kind of decision. That needs cool heads and logic ... not emotive rabble rousing.


It is going to get far more emotional and when it does the managers of our public lands are going to get a comeuppance. They will be forced to develop trails solely for bikers if that is what everyone wants. Hikers and bikers cannot coexist on the same trails.

Ed Dolan the Great
aka
Saint Edward the Great


 




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