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Another Case of those safe CF bikes



 
 
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  #61  
Old June 28th 17, 07:31 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Duane[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,900
Default Another Case of those safe CF bikes

On 28/06/2017 12:49 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, June 28, 2017 at 7:03:26 AM UTC-7, Duane wrote:
On 27/06/2017 7:44 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, June 27, 2017 at 3:55:02 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/27/2017 5:07 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/27/2017 12:23 PM, wrote:


You can get the latest Michelin Power Endurance tires for
only a little less than the Gatorskins. So far the Pro4
Endurance tires have impressed the hell out of me.

https://www.merlincycles.com/micheli...YaAlsK8P8 HAQ


What impresses me the most is that I've gotten only one
flat and it was from a goat's head thorn. The traction is
a LOT better on the road than Gatorskins are. Though the
long term wear I can't tell yet.

A serious question about traction: What sort of road riding
lets you know one make of tire has better traction than
another?

I know how to evaluate traction only by exceeding its limit;
that is by skidding when braking, or by sliding out when
cornering.

But I've hardly ever skidded when braking except when doing
parking lot exercises to teach quick stopping to other
cyclists. And one of my (only two ever) on-road falls was a
slide out, but it was due to winter road salt. I doubt any
tire would have maintained traction.

Granted, I'm very conservative with cornering. I don't ever
look like this:
http://www.trentobike.org/Countries/...y/tiretest.jpg


So do others regularly take their cornering to the limit,
then note how the tires behave?



Harder tread compounds feel odd in corners as compared to
Michelins.

Absolute traction /in extremis/ is a different matter; I
don't know. I assume other factors outweigh tread material
at that point because pretty much any two-wheeler can skid
with normal braking force.

Personally, I have two spots where I test tire traction in wet weather -- the chute into my garage with a tight turn (which is smooth cement) and a short, steep section on my way home -- going up seated and sanding. It's easy to gauge traction at that spot because your rear tire slips out, and moving fore-aft doesn't make a difference. Going down the chute, you can feel how much sliding you get with hard braking. Misjudging in both cases is fairly low consequence, although a guy in my building crashed and broke his him on the chute. Then they put in non-skid, which wore off about 15 years ago. I crashed there on a pair of early Michelin colored tires with a clay based pigment. Downside of sale table finds. I can't tell the difference in traction between two quality tires -- say a Pro4 and a Conti 4000, but some sale table tires are like riding on banana peels, even after break-in.

How do you like the Conti 4000? I usually use Specialized Pro but my
favorite LBS is dropping Specialized so I'll have to find a replacement
tire. Specialized tires don't seem to be available online.
Do they have good flat protection? Grip? ...


Conti 4000 are wickedly expensive and prone to sidewall cuts, IMO. Lou prefers them and can get a good deals in Europe. For me, they are always 20-50% more than Michelins. As for ride and grip, I think the Contis are a bit more plush feeling than Pro4s. I have a Conti front tire on my Roubaix; its 25mm nominal but looks and rides bigger.

Oddly enough, the Conti 4Seasons are heavier and have more rolling resistance than the Pro4s and the 4000, but I really liked them on my Roubaix winter bike. They're just too expensive, so I'm using Pro4 Endurance rear tire right now -- which are good, but I don't think they are as grippy as the regular Pro4s or the 4Seasons, but that impression could be effected by the fact that it's easy to skid my rear wheel on the Roubaix because the disc is so powerful.

Like I said, all the differences are subtle between the high end tires from Michelin or Continental.


Thanks.

I think the Conti 4000s is about the same price here as the Spec Pros
that I use. I guess I'll find out shortly if I like them.

I find Michelins a bit sluggish and hard to mount. Although I just
watched a guy mounting a Conti in the pouring rain Sunday and he didn't
seem to be enjoying it. It was a sidewall cut actually. He hit a piece
of strip metal.



Ads
  #62  
Old June 29th 17, 02:29 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,697
Default Another Case of those safe CF bikes

On Wed, 28 Jun 2017 07:55:13 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Tuesday, June 27, 2017 at 7:13:50 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 27 Jun 2017 13:43:48 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie
wrote:

On Tuesday, June 27, 2017 at 9:58:48 AM UTC-7, sms wrote:
On 6/24/2017 3:50 PM,
wrote:
The 2017 Tour of Flanders....

This rider was involved in a single rider crash on a city street lined with people and NO obstructions to run into.

The Bahrain Merida Pro Cycling Team rides Merida bikes, specifically the Scultura Team and Reacto Team model bikes. Both are full carbon fiber.

I have a picture but of course we cannot post pictures here.

Use Tinypic.com and post a link.

The bike broke about 5 inches above the bottom bracket on the down tube and about the same distance from the seat tube on the top tube. It appears that he was uninjured which suggests that he fell into the street lining crowd.

We know that anyone that rides a CF bike is more interested in saving a couple of lbs rather than his own safety but then that is a problem that will solve itself.

This is unusual since racers typically replace their bicycles often, so
they don't experience the failures that occur after the frame has been
subjected to events that would lead to CF failure. There must have been
a hidden defect in that frame.

There's no hard and fast rule, some carbon frames break after just a
year, some can go for a decade or more, but the conventional wisdom is
to replace the frame and fork every three years to be on the safe side.
Otherwise you're going to spend more trying to detect flaws that it's
worth, both in time and money/

http://isolatecyclist.bostonbiker.or...isconceptions/

I used the same set of CF forks on two different aluminum bikes for 15 years. The aluminum bikes broke. I gave the forks away. I put some cheap $69 Nashbar forks on an old steel frame, and the frame later broke. I gave those forks away, too. Both were 1".


-- Jay Beattie.


Reading about broken bicycles has always made me wonder what happened
"before".

In my very early youth I learned to ride a bicycle by coasting, on my
mate's new bike, down an incline, around a Conner and on to a flat
section of the driveway where we would stop.

In those days all "American" bikes had coaster brakes and I was small
for my age and thus braking was a bit of a problem for me and in my
last foray I ran head on into a trash barrel - a 55 gallon drum full
of garbage. The crash was severe enough they it threw me off the bike
and over the front wheel (and the barrel).

Had that been a CF bike and had the forks failed the next day while
pedaling down to the store for a quart of milk I suggest that the
headline would have been "My forks broke while I was riding at 5 MPH
to the store" and the fact that the bike had been ridden straight into
an immovable object at 10mph the day before would have been ignored.

--
Cheers,

John B.


So what you're saying is that a professional racing team crashed a bike and didn't replace it. I should have thought of that.


No, what I said was that I believed that the majority of the CF breaks
resulted from something other then a slow ride to the local shop for a
bottle of milk.
--
Cheers,

John B.

  #63  
Old June 29th 17, 02:51 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,345
Default Another Case of those safe CF bikes

On Wednesday, June 28, 2017 at 6:29:34 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:

So what you're saying is that a professional racing team crashed a bike and didn't replace it. I should have thought of that.


No, what I said was that I believed that the majority of the CF breaks
resulted from something other then a slow ride to the local shop for a
bottle of milk.


That's my whole point John. After talking to the company engineers at some of these bike companies I'm convinced that you can make a CF bike that would last a lifetime. But they cannot quality control every millimeter of the bikes and so they fail at a much higher rate than should be acceptable.

After the way the UCI treated my communication I am quite worried that we're going to have dead riders on the course before they come to their senses.
  #64  
Old June 29th 17, 03:18 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,016
Default Another Case of those safe CF bikes

On 2017-06-28 11:31, Duane wrote:
On 28/06/2017 12:49 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, June 28, 2017 at 7:03:26 AM UTC-7, Duane wrote:
On 27/06/2017 7:44 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, June 27, 2017 at 3:55:02 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/27/2017 5:07 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/27/2017 12:23 PM, wrote:


You can get the latest Michelin Power Endurance tires for
only a little less than the Gatorskins. So far the Pro4
Endurance tires have impressed the hell out of me.

https://www.merlincycles.com/micheli...YaAlsK8P8 HAQ



What impresses me the most is that I've gotten only one
flat and it was from a goat's head thorn. The traction is
a LOT better on the road than Gatorskins are. Though the
long term wear I can't tell yet.

A serious question about traction: What sort of road riding
lets you know one make of tire has better traction than
another?

I know how to evaluate traction only by exceeding its limit;
that is by skidding when braking, or by sliding out when
cornering.

But I've hardly ever skidded when braking except when doing
parking lot exercises to teach quick stopping to other
cyclists. And one of my (only two ever) on-road falls was a
slide out, but it was due to winter road salt. I doubt any
tire would have maintained traction.

Granted, I'm very conservative with cornering. I don't ever
look like this:
http://www.trentobike.org/Countries/...y/tiretest.jpg



So do others regularly take their cornering to the limit,
then note how the tires behave?



Harder tread compounds feel odd in corners as compared to
Michelins.

Absolute traction /in extremis/ is a different matter; I
don't know. I assume other factors outweigh tread material
at that point because pretty much any two-wheeler can skid
with normal braking force.

Personally, I have two spots where I test tire traction in wet
weather -- the chute into my garage with a tight turn (which is
smooth cement) and a short, steep section on my way home -- going up
seated and sanding. It's easy to gauge traction at that spot because
your rear tire slips out, and moving fore-aft doesn't make a
difference. Going down the chute, you can feel how much sliding you
get with hard braking. Misjudging in both cases is fairly low
consequence, although a guy in my building crashed and broke his him
on the chute. Then they put in non-skid, which wore off about 15
years ago. I crashed there on a pair of early Michelin colored tires
with a clay based pigment. Downside of sale table finds. I can't
tell the difference in traction between two quality tires -- say a
Pro4 and a Conti 4000, but some sale table tires are like riding on
banana peels, even after break-in.

How do you like the Conti 4000? I usually use Specialized Pro but my
favorite LBS is dropping Specialized so I'll have to find a replacement
tire. Specialized tires don't seem to be available online.
Do they have good flat protection? Grip? ...


Conti 4000 are wickedly expensive and prone to sidewall cuts, IMO.
Lou prefers them and can get a good deals in Europe. For me, they are
always 20-50% more than Michelins. As for ride and grip, I think the
Contis are a bit more plush feeling than Pro4s. I have a Conti front
tire on my Roubaix; its 25mm nominal but looks and rides bigger.

Oddly enough, the Conti 4Seasons are heavier and have more rolling
resistance than the Pro4s and the 4000, but I really liked them on my
Roubaix winter bike. They're just too expensive, so I'm using Pro4
Endurance rear tire right now -- which are good, but I don't think
they are as grippy as the regular Pro4s or the 4Seasons, but that
impression could be effected by the fact that it's easy to skid my
rear wheel on the Roubaix because the disc is so powerful.

Like I said, all the differences are subtle between the high end tires
from Michelin or Continental.


Thanks.

I think the Conti 4000s is about the same price here as the Spec Pros
that I use. I guess I'll find out shortly if I like them.

I find Michelins a bit sluggish and hard to mount. Although I just
watched a guy mounting a Conti in the pouring rain Sunday and he didn't
seem to be enjoying it. It was a sidewall cut actually. He hit a piece
of strip metal.


When I had my last side wall failure on a Conti Gatorskin I called my
wife to pick me up with her car. I could have put a chunk of cloth in
but I didn't want to go through an hour of wrestling again. Now I
switched to tires with sturdier side walls.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #65  
Old June 29th 17, 05:33 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Doug Landau
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,424
Default Another Case of those safe CF bikes

On Thursday, June 29, 2017 at 7:18:34 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-06-28 11:31, Duane wrote:
On 28/06/2017 12:49 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, June 28, 2017 at 7:03:26 AM UTC-7, Duane wrote:
On 27/06/2017 7:44 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, June 27, 2017 at 3:55:02 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/27/2017 5:07 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/27/2017 12:23 PM, wrote:


You can get the latest Michelin Power Endurance tires for
only a little less than the Gatorskins. So far the Pro4
Endurance tires have impressed the hell out of me.

https://www.merlincycles.com/micheli...YaAlsK8P8 HAQ



What impresses me the most is that I've gotten only one
flat and it was from a goat's head thorn. The traction is
a LOT better on the road than Gatorskins are. Though the
long term wear I can't tell yet.

A serious question about traction: What sort of road riding
lets you know one make of tire has better traction than
another?

I know how to evaluate traction only by exceeding its limit;
that is by skidding when braking, or by sliding out when
cornering.

But I've hardly ever skidded when braking except when doing
parking lot exercises to teach quick stopping to other
cyclists. And one of my (only two ever) on-road falls was a
slide out, but it was due to winter road salt. I doubt any
tire would have maintained traction.

Granted, I'm very conservative with cornering. I don't ever
look like this:
http://www.trentobike.org/Countries/...y/tiretest.jpg



So do others regularly take their cornering to the limit,
then note how the tires behave?



Harder tread compounds feel odd in corners as compared to
Michelins.

Absolute traction /in extremis/ is a different matter; I
don't know. I assume other factors outweigh tread material
at that point because pretty much any two-wheeler can skid
with normal braking force.

Personally, I have two spots where I test tire traction in wet
weather -- the chute into my garage with a tight turn (which is
smooth cement) and a short, steep section on my way home -- going up
seated and sanding. It's easy to gauge traction at that spot because
your rear tire slips out, and moving fore-aft doesn't make a
difference. Going down the chute, you can feel how much sliding you
get with hard braking. Misjudging in both cases is fairly low
consequence, although a guy in my building crashed and broke his him
on the chute. Then they put in non-skid, which wore off about 15
years ago. I crashed there on a pair of early Michelin colored tires
with a clay based pigment. Downside of sale table finds. I can't
tell the difference in traction between two quality tires -- say a
Pro4 and a Conti 4000, but some sale table tires are like riding on
banana peels, even after break-in.

How do you like the Conti 4000? I usually use Specialized Pro but my
favorite LBS is dropping Specialized so I'll have to find a replacement
tire. Specialized tires don't seem to be available online.
Do they have good flat protection? Grip? ...

Conti 4000 are wickedly expensive and prone to sidewall cuts, IMO.
Lou prefers them and can get a good deals in Europe. For me, they are
always 20-50% more than Michelins. As for ride and grip, I think the
Contis are a bit more plush feeling than Pro4s. I have a Conti front
tire on my Roubaix; its 25mm nominal but looks and rides bigger.

Oddly enough, the Conti 4Seasons are heavier and have more rolling
resistance than the Pro4s and the 4000, but I really liked them on my
Roubaix winter bike. They're just too expensive, so I'm using Pro4
Endurance rear tire right now -- which are good, but I don't think
they are as grippy as the regular Pro4s or the 4Seasons, but that
impression could be effected by the fact that it's easy to skid my
rear wheel on the Roubaix because the disc is so powerful.

Like I said, all the differences are subtle between the high end tires
from Michelin or Continental.


Thanks.

I think the Conti 4000s is about the same price here as the Spec Pros
that I use. I guess I'll find out shortly if I like them.

I find Michelins a bit sluggish and hard to mount. Although I just
watched a guy mounting a Conti in the pouring rain Sunday and he didn't
seem to be enjoying it. It was a sidewall cut actually. He hit a piece
of strip metal.


When I had my last side wall failure on a Conti Gatorskin I called my
wife to pick me up with her car. I could have put a chunk of cloth in
but I didn't want to go through an hour of wrestling again. Now I
switched to tires with sturdier side walls.


Conti Gatorskins are absolutely awesome. Winter commuting, two or more flats per week, switch to gatorskins, no more flats.
  #66  
Old June 29th 17, 07:22 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,870
Default Another Case of those safe CF bikes

On Thursday, June 29, 2017 at 9:34:02 AM UTC-7, Doug Landau wrote:
On Thursday, June 29, 2017 at 7:18:34 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-06-28 11:31, Duane wrote:
On 28/06/2017 12:49 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, June 28, 2017 at 7:03:26 AM UTC-7, Duane wrote:
On 27/06/2017 7:44 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, June 27, 2017 at 3:55:02 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/27/2017 5:07 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/27/2017 12:23 PM, wrote:


You can get the latest Michelin Power Endurance tires for
only a little less than the Gatorskins. So far the Pro4
Endurance tires have impressed the hell out of me.

https://www.merlincycles.com/micheli...YaAlsK8P8 HAQ



What impresses me the most is that I've gotten only one
flat and it was from a goat's head thorn. The traction is
a LOT better on the road than Gatorskins are. Though the
long term wear I can't tell yet.

A serious question about traction: What sort of road riding
lets you know one make of tire has better traction than
another?

I know how to evaluate traction only by exceeding its limit;
that is by skidding when braking, or by sliding out when
cornering.

But I've hardly ever skidded when braking except when doing
parking lot exercises to teach quick stopping to other
cyclists. And one of my (only two ever) on-road falls was a
slide out, but it was due to winter road salt. I doubt any
tire would have maintained traction.

Granted, I'm very conservative with cornering. I don't ever
look like this:
http://www.trentobike.org/Countries/...y/tiretest.jpg



So do others regularly take their cornering to the limit,
then note how the tires behave?



Harder tread compounds feel odd in corners as compared to
Michelins.

Absolute traction /in extremis/ is a different matter; I
don't know. I assume other factors outweigh tread material
at that point because pretty much any two-wheeler can skid
with normal braking force.

Personally, I have two spots where I test tire traction in wet
weather -- the chute into my garage with a tight turn (which is
smooth cement) and a short, steep section on my way home -- going up
seated and sanding. It's easy to gauge traction at that spot because
your rear tire slips out, and moving fore-aft doesn't make a
difference. Going down the chute, you can feel how much sliding you
get with hard braking. Misjudging in both cases is fairly low
consequence, although a guy in my building crashed and broke his him
on the chute. Then they put in non-skid, which wore off about 15
years ago. I crashed there on a pair of early Michelin colored tires
with a clay based pigment. Downside of sale table finds. I can't
tell the difference in traction between two quality tires -- say a
Pro4 and a Conti 4000, but some sale table tires are like riding on
banana peels, even after break-in.

How do you like the Conti 4000? I usually use Specialized Pro but my
favorite LBS is dropping Specialized so I'll have to find a replacement
tire. Specialized tires don't seem to be available online.
Do they have good flat protection? Grip? ...

Conti 4000 are wickedly expensive and prone to sidewall cuts, IMO.
Lou prefers them and can get a good deals in Europe. For me, they are
always 20-50% more than Michelins. As for ride and grip, I think the
Contis are a bit more plush feeling than Pro4s. I have a Conti front
tire on my Roubaix; its 25mm nominal but looks and rides bigger.

Oddly enough, the Conti 4Seasons are heavier and have more rolling
resistance than the Pro4s and the 4000, but I really liked them on my
Roubaix winter bike. They're just too expensive, so I'm using Pro4
Endurance rear tire right now -- which are good, but I don't think
they are as grippy as the regular Pro4s or the 4Seasons, but that
impression could be effected by the fact that it's easy to skid my
rear wheel on the Roubaix because the disc is so powerful.

Like I said, all the differences are subtle between the high end tires
from Michelin or Continental.


Thanks.

I think the Conti 4000s is about the same price here as the Spec Pros
that I use. I guess I'll find out shortly if I like them.

I find Michelins a bit sluggish and hard to mount. Although I just
watched a guy mounting a Conti in the pouring rain Sunday and he didn't
seem to be enjoying it. It was a sidewall cut actually. He hit a piece
of strip metal.


When I had my last side wall failure on a Conti Gatorskin I called my
wife to pick me up with her car. I could have put a chunk of cloth in
but I didn't want to go through an hour of wrestling again. Now I
switched to tires with sturdier side walls.


Conti Gatorskins are absolutely awesome. Winter commuting, two or more flats per week, switch to gatorskins, no more flats.


I ride Gatorskins, too, and they're relatively problem free. I've had problems with the uber-expensive Conti Grand Prix 4000S II version 10 back-slash zed, etc., etc. The super-tire. It's a very nice riding tire and many people find them to be reliable, but I had some problems and find Pro4s to be fine for me and much cheaper, particularly now that they are going out of production in favor of the latest and greatest "Power" tires from Michelin.

-- Jay Beattie.
  #67  
Old June 29th 17, 07:28 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Duane[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,900
Default Another Case of those safe CF bikes

On 29/06/2017 2:22 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, June 29, 2017 at 9:34:02 AM UTC-7, Doug Landau wrote:
On Thursday, June 29, 2017 at 7:18:34 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-06-28 11:31, Duane wrote:
On 28/06/2017 12:49 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, June 28, 2017 at 7:03:26 AM UTC-7, Duane wrote:
On 27/06/2017 7:44 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, June 27, 2017 at 3:55:02 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/27/2017 5:07 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/27/2017 12:23 PM, wrote:


You can get the latest Michelin Power Endurance tires for
only a little less than the Gatorskins. So far the Pro4
Endurance tires have impressed the hell out of me.

https://www.merlincycles.com/micheli...YaAlsK8P8 HAQ



What impresses me the most is that I've gotten only one
flat and it was from a goat's head thorn. The traction is
a LOT better on the road than Gatorskins are. Though the
long term wear I can't tell yet.

A serious question about traction: What sort of road riding
lets you know one make of tire has better traction than
another?

I know how to evaluate traction only by exceeding its limit;
that is by skidding when braking, or by sliding out when
cornering.

But I've hardly ever skidded when braking except when doing
parking lot exercises to teach quick stopping to other
cyclists. And one of my (only two ever) on-road falls was a
slide out, but it was due to winter road salt. I doubt any
tire would have maintained traction.

Granted, I'm very conservative with cornering. I don't ever
look like this:
http://www.trentobike.org/Countries/...y/tiretest.jpg



So do others regularly take their cornering to the limit,
then note how the tires behave?



Harder tread compounds feel odd in corners as compared to
Michelins.

Absolute traction /in extremis/ is a different matter; I
don't know. I assume other factors outweigh tread material
at that point because pretty much any two-wheeler can skid
with normal braking force.

Personally, I have two spots where I test tire traction in wet
weather -- the chute into my garage with a tight turn (which is
smooth cement) and a short, steep section on my way home -- going up
seated and sanding. It's easy to gauge traction at that spot because
your rear tire slips out, and moving fore-aft doesn't make a
difference. Going down the chute, you can feel how much sliding you
get with hard braking. Misjudging in both cases is fairly low
consequence, although a guy in my building crashed and broke his him
on the chute. Then they put in non-skid, which wore off about 15
years ago. I crashed there on a pair of early Michelin colored tires
with a clay based pigment. Downside of sale table finds. I can't
tell the difference in traction between two quality tires -- say a
Pro4 and a Conti 4000, but some sale table tires are like riding on
banana peels, even after break-in.

How do you like the Conti 4000? I usually use Specialized Pro but my
favorite LBS is dropping Specialized so I'll have to find a replacement
tire. Specialized tires don't seem to be available online.
Do they have good flat protection? Grip? ...

Conti 4000 are wickedly expensive and prone to sidewall cuts, IMO.
Lou prefers them and can get a good deals in Europe. For me, they are
always 20-50% more than Michelins. As for ride and grip, I think the
Contis are a bit more plush feeling than Pro4s. I have a Conti front
tire on my Roubaix; its 25mm nominal but looks and rides bigger.

Oddly enough, the Conti 4Seasons are heavier and have more rolling
resistance than the Pro4s and the 4000, but I really liked them on my
Roubaix winter bike. They're just too expensive, so I'm using Pro4
Endurance rear tire right now -- which are good, but I don't think
they are as grippy as the regular Pro4s or the 4Seasons, but that
impression could be effected by the fact that it's easy to skid my
rear wheel on the Roubaix because the disc is so powerful.

Like I said, all the differences are subtle between the high end tires
from Michelin or Continental.


Thanks.

I think the Conti 4000s is about the same price here as the Spec Pros
that I use. I guess I'll find out shortly if I like them.

I find Michelins a bit sluggish and hard to mount. Although I just
watched a guy mounting a Conti in the pouring rain Sunday and he didn't
seem to be enjoying it. It was a sidewall cut actually. He hit a piece
of strip metal.


When I had my last side wall failure on a Conti Gatorskin I called my
wife to pick me up with her car. I could have put a chunk of cloth in
but I didn't want to go through an hour of wrestling again. Now I
switched to tires with sturdier side walls.


Conti Gatorskins are absolutely awesome. Winter commuting, two or more flats per week, switch to gatorskins, no more flats.


I ride Gatorskins, too, and they're relatively problem free. I've had problems with the uber-expensive Conti Grand Prix 4000S II version 10 back-slash zed, etc., etc. The super-tire. It's a very nice riding tire and many people find them to be reliable, but I had some problems and find Pro4s to be fine for me and much cheaper, particularly now that they are going out of production in favor of the latest and greatest "Power" tires from Michelin.


What sort of problems did you have with the 4000s? You mean like flats
or handling or bad wear or what? Those are probably what I'm switching
too... As for pricing, I know a guy...

  #68  
Old June 29th 17, 08:18 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,016
Default Another Case of those safe CF bikes

On 2017-06-29 09:33, Doug Landau wrote:
On Thursday, June 29, 2017 at 7:18:34 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-06-28 11:31, Duane wrote:
On 28/06/2017 12:49 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, June 28, 2017 at 7:03:26 AM UTC-7, Duane wrote:
On 27/06/2017 7:44 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, June 27, 2017 at 3:55:02 PM UTC-7, AMuzi
wrote:
On 6/27/2017 5:07 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/27/2017 12:23 PM, wrote:


You can get the latest Michelin Power Endurance tires
for only a little less than the Gatorskins. So far
the Pro4 Endurance tires have impressed the hell out
of me.

https://www.merlincycles.com/micheli...YaAlsK8P8 HAQ





What impresses me the most is that I've gotten only one
flat and it was from a goat's head thorn. The
traction is a LOT better on the road than Gatorskins
are. Though the long term wear I can't tell yet.

A serious question about traction: What sort of road
riding lets you know one make of tire has better
traction than another?

I know how to evaluate traction only by exceeding its
limit; that is by skidding when braking, or by sliding
out when cornering.

But I've hardly ever skidded when braking except when
doing parking lot exercises to teach quick stopping to
other cyclists. And one of my (only two ever) on-road
falls was a slide out, but it was due to winter road
salt. I doubt any tire would have maintained
traction.

Granted, I'm very conservative with cornering. I don't
ever look like this:
http://www.trentobike.org/Countries/...y/tiretest.jpg





So do others regularly take their cornering to the limit,
then note how the tires behave?



Harder tread compounds feel odd in corners as compared
to Michelins.

Absolute traction /in extremis/ is a different matter; I
don't know. I assume other factors outweigh tread
material at that point because pretty much any
two-wheeler can skid with normal braking force.

Personally, I have two spots where I test tire traction in
wet weather -- the chute into my garage with a tight turn
(which is smooth cement) and a short, steep section on my
way home -- going up seated and sanding. It's easy to gauge
traction at that spot because your rear tire slips out, and
moving fore-aft doesn't make a difference. Going down the
chute, you can feel how much sliding you get with hard
braking. Misjudging in both cases is fairly low
consequence, although a guy in my building crashed and
broke his him on the chute. Then they put in non-skid,
which wore off about 15 years ago. I crashed there on a
pair of early Michelin colored tires with a clay based
pigment. Downside of sale table finds. I can't tell the
difference in traction between two quality tires -- say a
Pro4 and a Conti 4000, but some sale table tires are like
riding on banana peels, even after break-in.

How do you like the Conti 4000? I usually use Specialized
Pro but my favorite LBS is dropping Specialized so I'll have
to find a replacement tire. Specialized tires don't seem to
be available online. Do they have good flat protection?
Grip? ...

Conti 4000 are wickedly expensive and prone to sidewall cuts,
IMO. Lou prefers them and can get a good deals in Europe. For
me, they are always 20-50% more than Michelins. As for ride
and grip, I think the Contis are a bit more plush feeling than
Pro4s. I have a Conti front tire on my Roubaix; its 25mm
nominal but looks and rides bigger.

Oddly enough, the Conti 4Seasons are heavier and have more
rolling resistance than the Pro4s and the 4000, but I really
liked them on my Roubaix winter bike. They're just too
expensive, so I'm using Pro4 Endurance rear tire right now --
which are good, but I don't think they are as grippy as the
regular Pro4s or the 4Seasons, but that impression could be
effected by the fact that it's easy to skid my rear wheel on
the Roubaix because the disc is so powerful.

Like I said, all the differences are subtle between the high
end tires from Michelin or Continental.


Thanks.

I think the Conti 4000s is about the same price here as the Spec
Pros that I use. I guess I'll find out shortly if I like them.

I find Michelins a bit sluggish and hard to mount. Although I
just watched a guy mounting a Conti in the pouring rain Sunday
and he didn't seem to be enjoying it. It was a sidewall cut
actually. He hit a piece of strip metal.


When I had my last side wall failure on a Conti Gatorskin I called
my wife to pick me up with her car. I could have put a chunk of
cloth in but I didn't want to go through an hour of wrestling
again. Now I switched to tires with sturdier side walls.


Conti Gatorskins are absolutely awesome. Winter commuting, two or
more flats per week, switch to gatorskins, no more flats.


They are great and also very durable. I got around 2500mi out of them on
the rear. However, the side walls are so flimsy that some failed
prematurely. I tried to ignore the first "aneurysm" for a while and then
.... *POOF*

In our area it is almost unavoidable to travel along short gravel and
dirt sections during a trip and that's where Gatorskins do not fare well
at all. In contrast, the side walls of the CST Conquistare I have on
there now still look like new after almost 1000mi. It's just that those
tires don't appear to even get remotely close to 2500mi.

On the MTB the contrast between Western and Asian tires is even more
pronounced. I switched to Vee Rubber and they not only have much tougher
side walls but they also last longer. And cost way less. I've still got
a Cheng Shin Rock Hawk to try.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #69  
Old June 29th 17, 09:32 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 102
Default Another Case of those safe CF bikes

I think it is too small for Tom.
--
Andrew Chaplin
  #70  
Old June 29th 17, 09:52 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,538
Default Another Case of those safe CF bikes

On 6/29/2017 2:22 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, June 29, 2017 at 9:34:02 AM UTC-7, Doug Landau wrote:


Conti Gatorskins are absolutely awesome. Winter commuting, two or more flats per week, switch to gatorskins, no more flats.


I ride Gatorskins, too, and they're relatively problem free.


Just returned from another tandem ride on Gatorskins. Perhaps I should
knock on wood or offer some sacrifice to appease some god, but so far,
they've been perfect for us.

--
- Frank Krygowski
 




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