Bicyclist Fatalities in AZ 2009

On 12/10/2010 3:21 PM, Phil W Lee wrote:
Duane considered Thu, 09 Dec 2010
08:43:41 -0500 the perfect time to write:

On 12/8/2010 10:56 PM, Jay Beattie wrote:
On Dec 8, 4:38 pm, Frank wrote:
On Dec 8, 4:54 pm, Jay wrote:





On Dec 8, 9:40 am, Frank wrote:

On Dec 8, 11:26 am, wrote:

On Dec 7, 7:35 pm, Tºm Shermªn™ °_°

How does defensive driving apply? The only similar situation would be
on a low-powered scooter that could not keep pace with other motorized
traffic.

False. When you're simply cruising down the road in your vehicle, the
principles of defensive driving apply, whether you're being passed or
not, because you have to be ready for encroachment from the wings,
watch the road surface, etc. While you're being passed these
principles of defensive driving are even more important.. Furthermore,
when you're being passed, in any vehicle, the principles of defensive
driving should be applied to your relationship with that anonymous
driver to the extent that it is practicable to apply those principles.
Obviously in passing situations the operator of the vehicle being
passed must rely at least somewhat on the faculties of the passing
driver.

So, Robert: Of course, I know you'd be ever alert, well prepared,
extremely skillful and always taking responsibility for your own
safety, etc.

But in a 10 foot lane, curb at the right, with an 8.5 foot truck
behind you, where exactly would you ride?

Probably the same place he always rides, being that very few people
shift their position in the lane based on vehicles approaching from
the rear. "Oh, look, its an Escalade, better get left." "No, its
just a Prius, I should ride further right." "But wait, its a
Kenworth, better go down the center." Really, I'm riding a bike, not
a yoyo.

Your hypothetical also assumes that the truck is going to try to pass
you in your own lane rather than cross the centerline and pass at a
safe (and legally required) distance. You can make that assumption
sometimes, but not all the time. And if there is a place where
everyone always tries to pass too closely (I admit, there are such
places), then taking the road may be the safe thing to do. It also
requires you to pull off when there are cars piled up behind you to
let them pass. In that case, you are no different than the slow moving
lawn tractor driving down the road. The fact that you are on a bike
does not make you special and immune from the "slow moving vehicle
must yield" laws.

Are you aware of the Trotwood vs. Selz case, and what Bob Mionske and
of course Steve Magas have explained regarding that?

http://ohiobikelawyer.com/bike-law-1...ase-revisited/

http://velonews.competitor.com/2006/...aking-with-bob...

AFAIK, most states do not have a "slow moving vehicle must yield"
law. A few do have one, but it's restricted to situations where there
are (typically) five vehicles held behind _and_ there is a safe place
to pull over. If slow moving vehicles had to yield all the time, we
would have no right to the road, motorhomes would never make it out of
the flatlands, and commerce would become severely limited.

I'm pushing the "where would you ride" question because certain
posters were exaggerating the danger of bicycling, implying that one
can't trust motorists not to smash you. I'm trying to see who really
dives into the gutter or onto the sidewalk whenever a vehicle
approaches. I chose those dimensions because they're common in my
area, and there's no rational way to try to share that lane - at
least, not in my view nor according to any cycling instructional
material I know of.

Based on that, I would control that lane and not try to share the lane
to let the truck squeeze by. Do you agree?

By the way, Frank, I don't necessarily disagree with your proposition
that sometimes the only safe thing to do is take the lane -- or a
larger part of it. I DO take a larger portion of the lane to prevent
busses from passing me in certain places because they will squeeze me
in to the curb, and probably with great satisfaction. There is also a
down hill, off camber turn out of down town where cars tend to hug the
inside curb, and I ride out in the lane there, although I'm usually
going about the speed of traffic. In your truck scenario, I might
ride farther out in the road if I were approaching a turn where the
truck likely would cut the curve, if only innocently. On one lane
roads, I just ride to the right but not in the gutter, and cars and
trucks seem to get by without scaring me too often. I would never
take the whole road just because some people might pass me too
closely. -- Jay Beattie.

Don't you find that people tend to pass you more closely when you take
the whole road and tend to give you more distance when you're somewhat
to the right? That's be my experience for the most part. The maniac
drivers trying to terrorize me are not the norm.

I find the opposite.
If I'm riding close in to the edge, I'm in a position that drivers
don't have to change road position to not hit me, so they don't change
road position at all, even if it means them passing within a couple of
inches of me.
If I move out far enough that they have to make a conscious decision
to either move out or hit me, they will move out, and once they get
out of "just following the road" mode, they generally overtake
properly, and with sufficient clearance.
There is also a benefit in that if I'm not already at the edge of the
road when they come uncomfortably close, I still have somewhere to go
to make more space, without being forced off the road altogether.
So it seems to help both with the otherwise sensible drivers who just
need a slight nudge to provoke them into sensible behaviour (but may
forget otherwise) and the idiots who intentionally cut too close.


I agree with you generally but when I'm in the middle of the lane, the
driver can pass me by moving into the left lane. I've had them come
close and at speed. If I can move to the right I usually do but I'm
usually in this position to avoid doors so I don't move to the right.

I was interested if other had the same impression of the driver being
more ticked off. Though now that I've read our local regs, I see why
they are probably more likely to be ticked off here than elsewhere.

I suspect if you ever encounter a real homicidal maniac, it won't make
much difference either way.

Not talking about homicidal maniacs. Just pricks.