Bicyclist Fatalities in AZ 2009

Duane Hebert wrote:
"DirtRoadie" wrote in message
...
On Dec 8, 6:48 pm, Tºm Shermªn™ °_° ""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI
$southslope.net" wrote:

Screw that; if I am driving my truck and someone is tailgating, I will
take the chance of them getting the trailer ball on my Class III hitch
through their radiator.

Tom is proud to boast of his Class III balls, well, at least one.

Wonder what he has on the back of his bent though.



http://www.bullsnuts.com.au/

JS.

On Dec 8, 7:09*pm, James wrote:
Jay Beattie wrote:
In Oregon -- which is pretty standard UVC:

O.R.S. 811.130

West's Oregon Revised Statutes Annotated Currentness
Title 59. Oregon Vehicle Code
Chapter 811. Rules of the Road for Drivers
*Speed
*(Impeding Traffic)
811.130. Impeding traffic; penalties

snip--

(4) A person is not in violation of the offense described under this
section if the person is proceeding as part of a funeral procession
under the direction of a funeral escort vehicle or a funeral lead
vehicle.

What if Frank is about to become a funeral procession?

Good point. Maybe Frank actually has the while thing worked out. Pure
genius!
I think the hangup there though is there is the "proceeding" part.
I wonder if being a radiator shroud on an 8.5 foot wide truck meets
that requirement.
DR
----

On 2010-12-09, T?m Sherm?n? ?_? "" wrote:
On 12/8/2010 8:22 AM, Duane H?bert wrote:
On 12/7/2010 8:13 PM, T?m Sherm?n? ?_? wrote:
On 12/7/2010 8:22 AM, Duane H?bert wrote:
On 12/6/2010 9:21 PM, T?m Sherm?n? ?_? wrote:
On 12/6/2010 10:08 AM, Duane H?bert wrote:

At home I use Outlook Express for a news reader.[...]

Bill Gates holding a gun to your head?


Huh?

Why would anyone use a Micro$oft product when better, free alternatives
are available? (Assuming that they are given a choice.)


I haven't got around to installing TBird at home. Last year when I
tried it, it sucked too much. The current version seems ok - I'm using
it at work.

The "Huh?" was more about you telling me to use a newsreader that will
let me respond to your posts in lieu of you not doing funny things to
your header.

So huh?

My header is UTF-8 compliant.

Alas, usenet is not. It's a 7-bit medium.

--

Kristian Zoerhoff

On Dec 8, 6:01*pm, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Dec 8, 4:02*pm, Duane Hébert wrote:

What is there to clarify about that statement anyway? *You say that you
ride in the middle of the lane regardless of any circumstances because
you control the lane.

And Frank Krygowski wrote:
No, I didn't say that! *(If you think I did, find a quote.)

Dear Frank: See below.

Frank continued:
*I've
mentioned dozens of times over the years that I share the lane
whenever it's safe to do so. *And you guys claim I misrepresent you!

"Guys" is what he said. Plural right?
Yeah, thats right. A WHOLE bunch of people find Frank to be a liar.

But Frank then continued:
OK, fine. *You're going to bail out and shake your fist.
(and here comes the good part)
I'm going to continue to ride in the center of the lane,
and I'm not going to cede
my legal right to the road out of fear the trucker is really a
murderer.

We rest our case.
DR

DirtRoadie wrote:
On Dec 8, 6:01 pm, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Dec 8, 4:02 pm, Duane Hébert wrote:

What is there to clarify about that statement anyway? You say that you
ride in the middle of the lane regardless of any circumstances because
you control the lane.

And Frank Krygowski wrote:
No, I didn't say that! (If you think I did, find a quote.)

Dear Frank: See below.

Frank continued:
I've
mentioned dozens of times over the years that I share the lane
whenever it's safe to do so. And you guys claim I misrepresent you!

"Guys" is what he said. Plural right?
Yeah, thats right. A WHOLE bunch of people find Frank to be a liar.

But Frank then continued:
OK, fine. You're going to bail out and shake your fist.
(and here comes the good part)
I'm going to continue to ride in the center of the lane,
and I'm not going to cede
my legal right to the road out of fear the trucker is really a
murderer.

We rest our case.

Nice one, centurion.

JS.

On 12/8/2010 8:12 PM, James Steward wrote:
Tºm Shermªn™ °_° wrote:

Then, when you have found the shrubbery, you must place it here beside
this shrubbery, only slightly higher so you get a two-level effect
with a little path running down the middle.


A path! A path!

Then you must cut down the mightiest tree in the forest with.... a herring.


We shall do no such thing!

Cut down a tree with a herring? It can't be done.

--
Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.

Tºm Shermªn™ °_° wrote:
On 12/8/2010 8:12 PM, James Steward wrote:
Tºm Shermªn™ °_° wrote:

Then, when you have found the shrubbery, you must place it here beside
this shrubbery, only slightly higher so you get a two-level effect
with a little path running down the middle.


A path! A path!

Then you must cut down the mightiest tree in the forest with.... a
herring.


We shall do no such thing!

Cut down a tree with a herring? It can't be done.

Don't say that word.

JS.

On Dec 8, 4:38*pm, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Dec 8, 4:54*pm, Jay Beattie wrote:





On Dec 8, 9:40*am, Frank Krygowski wrote:

On Dec 8, 11:26*am, RobertH wrote:

On Dec 7, 7:35 pm, Tºm Shermªn™ °_°

How does defensive driving apply? *The only similar situation would be
on a low-powered scooter that could not keep pace with other motorized
traffic.

False. When you're simply cruising down the road in your vehicle, the
principles of defensive driving apply, whether you're being passed or
not, because you have to be ready for encroachment from the wings,
watch the road surface, etc. While you're being passed these
principles of defensive driving are even more important.. Furthermore,
when you're being passed, in any vehicle, the principles of defensive
driving should be applied to your relationship with that anonymous
driver to the extent that it is practicable to apply those principles.
Obviously in passing situations the operator of the vehicle being
passed must rely at least somewhat on the faculties of the passing
driver.

So, Robert: *Of course, I know you'd be ever alert, well prepared,
extremely skillful and always taking responsibility for your own
safety, etc.

But in a 10 foot lane, curb at the right, with an 8.5 foot truck
behind you, where exactly would you ride?

Probably the same place he always rides, being that very few people
shift their position in the lane based on vehicles approaching from
the rear. *"Oh, look, its an Escalade, better get left." *"No, its
just a Prius, I should ride further right." *"But wait, its a
Kenworth, better go down the center." *Really, I'm riding a bike, not
a yoyo.

Your hypothetical also assumes that the truck is going to try to pass
you in your own lane rather than cross the centerline and pass at a
safe (and legally required) distance. *You can make that assumption
sometimes, but not all the time. *And if there is a place where
everyone always tries to pass too closely (I admit, there are such
places), then taking the road may be the safe thing to do. *It also
requires you to pull off when there are cars piled up behind you to
let them pass. In that case, you are no different than the slow moving
lawn tractor driving down the road. The fact that you are on a bike
does not make you special and immune from the "slow moving vehicle
must yield" laws.

Are you aware of the Trotwood vs. Selz case, and what Bob Mionske and
of course Steve Magas have explained regarding that?

http://ohiobikelawyer.com/bike-law-1...ase-revisited/

http://velonews.competitor.com/2006/...aking-with-bob...

AFAIK, most states do not have a "slow moving vehicle must yield"
law. *A few do have one, but it's restricted to situations where there
are (typically) five vehicles held behind _and_ there is a safe place
to pull over. *If slow moving vehicles had to yield all the time, we
would have no right to the road, motorhomes would never make it out of
the flatlands, and commerce would become severely limited.

I'm pushing the "where would you ride" question because certain
posters were exaggerating the danger of bicycling, implying that one
can't trust motorists not to smash you. I'm trying to see who really
dives into the gutter or onto the sidewalk whenever a vehicle
approaches. *I chose those dimensions because they're common in my
area, and there's no rational way to try to share that lane - at
least, not in my view nor according to any cycling instructional
material I know of.

Based on that, I would control that lane and not try to share the lane
to let the truck squeeze by. *Do you agree?

By the way, Frank, I don't necessarily disagree with your proposition
that sometimes the only safe thing to do is take the lane -- or a
larger part of it. I DO take a larger portion of the lane to prevent
busses from passing me in certain places because they will squeeze me
in to the curb, and probably with great satisfaction. There is also a
down hill, off camber turn out of down town where cars tend to hug the
inside curb, and I ride out in the lane there, although I'm usually
going about the speed of traffic. In your truck scenario, I might
ride farther out in the road if I were approaching a turn where the
truck likely would cut the curve, if only innocently. On one lane
roads, I just ride to the right but not in the gutter, and cars and
trucks seem to get by without scaring me too often. I would never
take the whole road just because some people might pass me too
closely. -- Jay Beattie.

On Dec 8, 5:01 pm, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Dec 8, 4:02 pm, Duane Hébert wrote:

On 12/8/2010 3:41 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
I was trying to clarify what this meant:
"And when I do ride with cars, what I will do in any given
circumstance depends." Did it mean "If I get nervous about cars, I
ride the sidewalk"?

If you don't really "get that" WTF makes you say that? It's damned
insulting.

Do you not remember that one of your supporters in this discussion has
frequently bragged about riding sidewalks? When he said he does, and
you said "what I do depends..." then it certainly sounded to me like
you might ride sidewalks as well.

What is there to clarify about that statement anyway? You say that you....

Hold the phone, man - coincidence is not an association... unless you
are a statistics nut or something :-)


snip

On Dec 8, 6:00 pm, Jay Beattie wrote:
On Dec 8, 4:38 pm, Frank Krygowski wrote:

On Dec 8, 4:54 pm, Jay Beattie wrote:

snip



Probably the same place he always rides, being that very few people
shift their position in the lane based on vehicles approaching from
the rear. "Oh, look, its an Escalade, better get left." "No, its
just a Prius, I should ride further right." "But wait, its a
Kenworth, better go down the center." Really, I'm riding a bike, not
a yoyo.

Your hypothetical also assumes that the truck is going to try to pass
you in your own lane rather than cross the centerline and pass at a
safe (and legally required) distance. You can make that assumption
sometimes, but not all the time. And if there is a place where
everyone always tries to pass too closely (I admit, there are such
places), then taking the road may be the safe thing to do. It also
requires you to pull off when there are cars piled up behind you to
let them pass. In that case, you are no different than the slow moving
lawn tractor driving down the road. The fact that you are on a bike
does not make you special and immune from the "slow moving vehicle
must yield" laws.

Are you aware of the Trotwood vs. Selz case, and what Bob Mionske and
of course Steve Magas have explained regarding that?

http://ohiobikelawyer.com/bike-law-1...ase-revisited/

http://velonews.competitor.com/2006/...aking-with-bob...

Yes, they're wrong -- at least in Oregon. I know that because of
this:

"Evidence was sufficient to support conviction for impeding traffic,
even though defendant's conviction involved his use of bicycle and
definition of offense referred only to motor vehicles; nothing in
vehicle code provided that such offense be applied only to motor
vehicles. ORS 811.130(1), 814.400. State v. Potter (2002) 57 P.3d 944,
185 Or.App. 81."

So, go ahead and impede traffic in Ohio, but not here. You'll get
busted. Also, if you want bicycles to be treated like vehicles, then
you can't cherry pick. That simply endorses the view of most
motorists that bicyclists see them self as the chosen ones. In fact, I
ride a bike with the arc of the covenant in a front pannier to part
traffic. That's how chosen I am.


I carry a little picture of some holy lady that they gave me at the
bookstore - right next to my ziplock bag of bandaids.