Bicyclist Fatalities in AZ 2009

On Dec 23, 12:13*pm, Duane Hébert wrote:
On 12/23/2010 2:00 PM, Jay Beattie wrote:

On Dec 22, 10:01 pm, Frank *wrote:
On Dec 23, 12:41 am, *wrote:

On Dec 22, 9:41 pm, Frank *wrote:

If you're responding to me, you'd do better to discuss what I've said,
rather than what "some" have said. *And if you review, I've said I do
share wide lanes, even though I've seen benefits to being further
left.

Sounds pretty wishy washy all the sudden.

:-) *Really? *Compared to you?

Robert, though this entire discussion, I'm the one who has been giving
almost all numbers. *You and most others have been saying just "It
depends," usually with no further explanation. *And I see you've
ignored my last repeat request: *"To keep it simple, let's review the
8.5' truck trying to get by in a 10' lane. *Where do you ride, again?"

In the street depicted in the video and graphic, where would you ride?

If you're talking about the video athttp://commuteorlando.com/wordpress/2010/11/29/helping-motorists-with...
I'd probably be at lane center. *If it is ten feet wide (which I
suspect) that would put me at about 5 feet. *As the first car and the
school bus clearly show, there's not enough lane width to safely
share.

Now your turn. *Where would you ride in that lane?

As far right as is practicable. *I don't see any danger of unsafe
passing. *In fact, no one did pass unsafely, even when the rider was
far right. Three open lanes with light traffic does not spell danger
to me.

Yeah that's the impression that I got as well. *3 open
lanes with no traffic.

This is a fair and realistic approach to narrow roads:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKSVwhLMjBk

This is typical of the type of road that I ride for fun.
Twisty, narrow but not much traffic. *Even some of the obstacles
look familiar. No other cyclists though.

I tend to ride pretty much like the
cyclist there under those conditions. *Move over and let them pass when
I can. I like that better than having them behind me anyway.

Ditto.
Very familiar scenarios.
However, I wouldn't be worrying too much about the formality of
signaling when coming to a stop sign.
Note the double yellow line which IIRC has not been discussed here
among "it depends" factors.
But, yes, staying to the right on the uphills, using the lane going
down when moving faster, presumably at the speed of traffic anyhow.
When I think of "safe passing" I think of exactly what is shown - the
significance of oncoming traffic, not the distinction between whether
the passing vehicle is 2.1 or 4.7 feet away from the cyclist.
Perhaps what stands out in the video is the cooperative nature of the
riding, working with and communicating with following drivers via hand
signals as appropriate and helping them know when the road is clear
ahead. It is not uncommon for a cyclist to be able to see farther
ahead than a following driver can.

Krygowski has never mentioned anything beyond his narrow minded
"taking control" and dictating to them. A "road hog" mentality that
is of little value to anyone.
He did at some point conceded that "it depends" but nonetheless cannot
fully embrace that concept.

DR

On Dec 23, 12:20 pm, Duane Hébert wrote:
On 12/23/2010 3:08 PM, Dan O wrote:



On Dec 23, 10:29 am, Frank wrote:
On Dec 23, 1:10 pm, Duane H wrote:

On 12/23/2010 12:37 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:

Seems you're pretending to know my thoughts, despite my statements
like "And while there are times I'll share a 12 foot lane..." I've
also stated that there are lanes I'll share with a small car, but not
with a large truck. I've stated that we have some 15 foot lanes here,
which I always share.

I think you need to take notes.

How do you "control the lane" when the truck driver is at the end of
a red eye and lit up on Benzedrine?

Duane, if that unlikely "Danger! Danger!" scenario scares you so
much, you need to give up cycling.

So you can't answer the question?

The answer to the question is obvious: You ride in lane center. It
works, despite your paranoia. Remember? 14 million miles ridden in
Quebec between fatalities?

And who the **** are you to tell someone whether or not they should
ride a frigging bicycle?

It's just advice. Take it or leave it.

But in either case, riding a bike while whining about the danger is
unseemly. PLEASE stop your fear mongering. It's not helping
cyclists.

"Fear mongering (or scaremongering) is...

snip


It doesn't work on me anymore. I'm not proud. (I am a jerk
sometimes, too.) Even the exasperation has waned. I sincerely wish
you free of this vitriol for your own good.

Much more eloquent response than mine. Thanks.


I have offered Frank the concise impolite response more than once.

I've been actively trying to ignore this idiot but he has
the ability to press buttons that I can't ignore. First it
was his posting his anti helmet crap in threads about dead
cyclist. Today it was his incredible arrogance at instructing
a parent how to teach their child.


My first encounter was making the mistake of mentioning the gnarly
gouges in my hard shell helmet. Turned out I was not riding
properly :-)

But I think that this is part of his plan. He lives for
his lording over lesser intelligences. If we ignore him,
he has to find a way to get us back. If not, he'll go so far as to
create a fictional character and post the same arguments.

I have to try harder to ignore him.


It burned me up until my immune system started catching up :-)

snip

On Dec 23, 1:20*pm, Duane Hébert wrote:
On 12/23/2010 3:08 PM, Dan O wrote:





On Dec 23, 10:29 am, Frank *wrote:
On Dec 23, 1:10 pm, Duane H *wrote:

On 12/23/2010 12:37 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:

Seems you're pretending to know my thoughts, despite my statements
like "And while there are times I'll share a 12 foot lane..." *I've
also stated that there are lanes I'll share with a small car, but not
with a large truck. *I've stated that we have some 15 foot lanes here,
which I always share.

I think you need to take notes.

How do you "control the lane" when the truck driver is at the end of
a red eye and lit up on Benzedrine?

Duane, if that unlikely "Danger! *Danger!" scenario scares you so
much, you need to give up cycling.

So you can't answer the question?

The answer to the question is obvious: *You ride in lane center. *It
works, despite your paranoia. *Remember? *14 million miles ridden in
Quebec between fatalities?

And who the **** are you to tell someone whether or not they should
ride a frigging bicycle?

It's just advice. *Take it or leave it.

But in either case, riding a bike while whining about the danger is
unseemly. *PLEASE stop your fear mongering. *It's not helping
cyclists.

"Fear mongering (or scaremongering) is the use of fear to influence
the opinions and actions of others towards some specific end. The
feared object or subject is sometimes exaggerated, and the pattern of
fear mongering is usually one of repetition, in order to continuously
reinforce the intended effects of this tactic, sometimes in the form
of a vicious circle"

People have egos. *You tactically employ the natural aversion (fear,
if you will) of ridicule in a continuous, repetitious pattern intended
to counter any suggestion contrary to your specific end. *You are far
and away the most obsessed person here with influencing the opinion
and actions of others. *You employ wild exaggeration and hyperbole to
deride the most ridiculous interpretation that you can conjure of the
offending message. *You disregard (omit without indication) points
that you don't have a smarmy and/or supercilious put down for (often
to the point of addressing only ancillary aspects of the message).
You do all this in a way deliberately calculated to suppress the
*person* by manipulating their natural fear of apprearing foolish (or
frightened or incompetent or incurious or innumerate or... )

You deal with dissent by obsessively smearing **** all over it as much
as you can. *You are bent on "instructing" everyone in the right
proper way - *your* way - and seem incapable of recognizing different
perspectives, respecting different lifestyles, and acknowledging the
validity of different views. *We're just expressing our thoughts and
opinions. *You are apparently on some kind of crusade, which wouldn't
be so bad in itself, except that it's long gone perversely off the
rails.

It doesn't work on me anymore. *I'm not proud. *(I am a jerk
sometimes, too.) *Even the exasperation has waned. *I sincerely wish
you free of this vitriol for your own good.

Much more eloquent response than mine. *Thanks.

I've been actively trying to ignore this idiot but he has
the ability to press buttons that I can't ignore. *First it
was his posting his anti helmet crap in threads about dead
cyclist. *Today it was his incredible arrogance at instructing
a parent how to teach their child.

But I think that this is part of his plan. *He lives for
his lording over lesser intelligences. *If we ignore him,
he has to find a way to get us back. *If not, he'll go so far as to
create a fictional character and post the same arguments.

I have to try harder to ignore him.

Fortunately, he is back to ignoring me and he hasn't even bothered to
tell me that he's ignoring me. All is right with the world.

But think of it this way - Frank Krygowski is the class clown. He is
recording all his lunacy for posterity. While the thought of him
having kids or grandkids is scary, I relish the thought of his
descendants looking back someday at the record he is leaving behind
and wondering how an ancestor of theirs could be so far out of touch
and so caught up in his own little fantasy world.

It still remains a complete mystery what he might hope to accomplish
by his "One Note Johnny" presentation and badgering of many people in
this group.

He should be very proud;-)

DR

"Dan O" wrote in message
...

My first encounter was making the mistake of mentioning the gnarly
gouges in my hard shell helmet. Turned out I was not riding
properly :-)

LOL. My first was when I commented to (Pete Cresswell I think)
commisserating with an accident that he had that was similar to one
that I just had. I made the mistake of saying that my helmet was
dented but not my head. Turns out that I was misguided because
it was only the additional width of the helmet that caused it to be
dented. With no helmet my neck would have miraculously stopped
my head from wipping to the pavement.

But I think that this is part of his plan. He lives for
his lording over lesser intelligences. If we ignore him,
he has to find a way to get us back. If not, he'll go so far as to
create a fictional character and post the same arguments.

I have to try harder to ignore him.


It burned me up until my immune system started catching up :-)

I'm trying Bushmills at the moment.

On Dec 23, 2:00*pm, Jay Beattie wrote:
On Dec 22, 10:01*pm, Frank Krygowski wrote:



On Dec 23, 12:41*am, RobertH wrote:

On Dec 22, 9:41 pm, Frank Krygowski wrote:

If you're responding to me, you'd do better to discuss what I've said,
rather than what "some" have said. *And if you review, I've said I do
share wide lanes, even though I've seen benefits to being further
left.

Sounds pretty wishy washy all the sudden.

:-) *Really? *Compared to you?

Robert, though this entire discussion, I'm the one who has been giving
almost all numbers. *You and most others have been saying just "It
depends," usually with no further explanation. *And I see you've
ignored my last repeat request: *"To keep it simple, let's review the
8.5' truck trying to get by in a 10' lane. *Where do you ride, again?"

In the street depicted in the video and graphic, where would you ride?

If you're talking about the video athttp://commuteorlando.com/wordpress/2010/11/29/helping-motorists-with...
I'd probably be at lane center. *If it is ten feet wide (which I
suspect) that would put me at about 5 feet. *As the first car and the
school bus clearly show, there's not enough lane width to safely
share.

Now your turn. *Where would you ride in that lane?

As far right as is practicable. *I don't see any danger of unsafe
passing. *In fact, no one did pass unsafely, even when the rider was
far right. Three open lanes with light traffic does not spell danger
to me.

Actually, the rider never was at far right. The video illustrates the
difference between riding in the right tire track or riding at lane
center, or a bit further left. And it does seem like motorists sorted
things out more quickly when the cyclist was further left. No?

I don't like their title: "Lane Control vs. Right Tire Track." If
you really wanted to see an alternative to lane control, you'd have to
record the results of riding down the fog line. But I can see why the
cyclist wouldn't want to try that, even if some posting here might.

This is a fair and realistic approach to narrow roads:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKSVwhLMjBk

That's pretty good. There are a few times I'd be a bit further left
than that rider. But again, I know cyclists who would be on the fog
line whenever a car passed.

I suppose we could ask everyone where they would ride in the lane at
different time points in that video. Unfortunately, I doubt we'd get
much more light on this subject. :-(

Anyone interested can find more videos at
http://commuteorlando.com/wordpress/...ident-cyclist/

- Frank Krygowski

On Dec 23, 1:21*pm, Duane Hébert wrote:

You just got through telling someone that they shouldn't let their
child wear a ski helmet. *Who the **** are you to do that?

I did??

What was that exact quote?

Seriously, you _do_ need to take notes!

- Frank Krygowski

On Dec 23, 1:41*pm, Duane Hébert wrote:
On 12/23/2010 1:29 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:



On Dec 23, 1:10 pm, Duane H *wrote:
On 12/23/2010 12:37 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:

Seems you're pretending to know my thoughts, despite my statements
like "And while there are times I'll share a 12 foot lane..." *I've
also stated that there are lanes I'll share with a small car, but not
with a large truck. *I've stated that we have some 15 foot lanes here,
which I always share.

I think you need to take notes.

How do you "control the lane" when the truck driver is at the end of
a red eye and lit up on Benzedrine?

Duane, if that unlikely "Danger! *Danger!" scenario scares you so
much, you need to give up cycling.

So you can't answer the question?

The answer to the question is obvious: *You ride in lane center. *It
works, despite your paranoia. *Remember? *14 million miles ridden in
Quebec between fatalities?

None of which can legally be ridden in the lane center unless
there's an obstruction that forces them there. *Quebec Highway
Code section 488. *Remember:

487. Subject to section 492, every person on a bicycle must ride on the
extreme right-hand side of the roadway in the same direction as traffic,
except where that space is obstructed or when he is about to make a left
turn.

and just for completeness, this is section 492 sighted above:

492. Where the public highway includes a cycle lane, persons riding a
bicycle other than a power-assisted bicycle must use the cycle lane.

So basically, La Belle Provence n'a pas te besoin ni tes id es.

Ah well. You'll just have to let that sleep-deprived, drug-addled
trucker skim by your shoulder, should he choose to.

My sympathies, once again. Good luck!

- Frank Krygowski

On Dec 23, 4:34*pm, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Dec 23, 2:00*pm, Jay Beattie wrote:





On Dec 22, 10:01*pm, Frank Krygowski wrote:

On Dec 23, 12:41*am, RobertH wrote:

On Dec 22, 9:41 pm, Frank Krygowski wrote:

If you're responding to me, you'd do better to discuss what I've said,
rather than what "some" have said. *And if you review, I've said I do
share wide lanes, even though I've seen benefits to being further
left.

Sounds pretty wishy washy all the sudden.

:-) *Really? *Compared to you?

Robert, though this entire discussion, I'm the one who has been giving
almost all numbers. *You and most others have been saying just "It
depends," usually with no further explanation. *And I see you've
ignored my last repeat request: *"To keep it simple, let's review the
8.5' truck trying to get by in a 10' lane. *Where do you ride, again?"

In the street depicted in the video and graphic, where would you ride?

If you're talking about the video athttp://commuteorlando.com/wordpress/2010/11/29/helping-motorists-with...
I'd probably be at lane center. *If it is ten feet wide (which I
suspect) that would put me at about 5 feet. *As the first car and the
school bus clearly show, there's not enough lane width to safely
share.

Now your turn. *Where would you ride in that lane?

As far right as is practicable. *I don't see any danger of unsafe
passing. *In fact, no one did pass unsafely, even when the rider was
far right. Three open lanes with light traffic does not spell danger
to me.

Actually, the rider never was at far right. *The video illustrates the
difference between riding in the right tire track or riding at lane
center, or a bit further left. *And it does seem like motorists sorted
things out more quickly when the cyclist was further left. *No?

I don't like their title: *"Lane Control vs. Right Tire Track." *If
you really wanted to see an alternative to lane control, you'd have to
record the results of riding down the fog line. *But I can see why the
cyclist wouldn't want to try that, even if some posting here might.

This is a fair and realistic approach to narrow roads:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKSVwhLMjBk

That's pretty good. *There are a few times I'd be a bit further left
than that rider. *But again, I know cyclists who would be on the fog
line whenever a car passed.

I suppose we could ask everyone where they would ride in the lane at
different time points in that video. *Unfortunately, I doubt we'd get
much more light on this subject. *:-(

Anyone interested can find more videos athttp://commuteorlando.com/wordpress/on-the-road/the-confident-cyclist/

- Frank Krygowski

Hey, Frank! Who cares? Others are discussing, you're micromanaging.
DR

On 12/23/2010 4:27 PM, DirtRoadie wrote:
On Dec 23, 1:20 pm, Duane wrote:
On 12/23/2010 3:08 PM, Dan O wrote:





On Dec 23, 10:29 am, Frank wrote:
On Dec 23, 1:10 pm, Duane H wrote:

On 12/23/2010 12:37 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:

Seems you're pretending to know my thoughts, despite my statements
like "And while there are times I'll share a 12 foot lane..." I've
also stated that there are lanes I'll share with a small car, but not
with a large truck. I've stated that we have some 15 foot lanes here,
which I always share.

I think you need to take notes.

How do you "control the lane" when the truck driver is at the end of
a red eye and lit up on Benzedrine?

Duane, if that unlikely "Danger! Danger!" scenario scares you so
much, you need to give up cycling.

So you can't answer the question?

The answer to the question is obvious: You ride in lane center. It
works, despite your paranoia. Remember? 14 million miles ridden in
Quebec between fatalities?

And who the **** are you to tell someone whether or not they should
ride a frigging bicycle?

It's just advice. Take it or leave it.

But in either case, riding a bike while whining about the danger is
unseemly. PLEASE stop your fear mongering. It's not helping
cyclists.

"Fear mongering (or scaremongering) is the use of fear to influence
the opinions and actions of others towards some specific end. The
feared object or subject is sometimes exaggerated, and the pattern of
fear mongering is usually one of repetition, in order to continuously
reinforce the intended effects of this tactic, sometimes in the form
of a vicious circle"

People have egos. You tactically employ the natural aversion (fear,
if you will) of ridicule in a continuous, repetitious pattern intended
to counter any suggestion contrary to your specific end. You are far
and away the most obsessed person here with influencing the opinion
and actions of others. You employ wild exaggeration and hyperbole to
deride the most ridiculous interpretation that you can conjure of the
offending message. You disregard (omit without indication) points
that you don't have a smarmy and/or supercilious put down for (often
to the point of addressing only ancillary aspects of the message).
You do all this in a way deliberately calculated to suppress the
*person* by manipulating their natural fear of apprearing foolish (or
frightened or incompetent or incurious or innumerate or... )

You deal with dissent by obsessively smearing **** all over it as much
as you can. You are bent on "instructing" everyone in the right
proper way - *your* way - and seem incapable of recognizing different
perspectives, respecting different lifestyles, and acknowledging the
validity of different views. We're just expressing our thoughts and
opinions. You are apparently on some kind of crusade, which wouldn't
be so bad in itself, except that it's long gone perversely off the
rails.

It doesn't work on me anymore. I'm not proud. (I am a jerk
sometimes, too.) Even the exasperation has waned. I sincerely wish
you free of this vitriol for your own good.

Much more eloquent response than mine. Thanks.

I've been actively trying to ignore this idiot but he has
the ability to press buttons that I can't ignore. First it
was his posting his anti helmet crap in threads about dead
cyclist. Today it was his incredible arrogance at instructing
a parent how to teach their child.

But I think that this is part of his plan. He lives for
his lording over lesser intelligences. If we ignore him,
he has to find a way to get us back. If not, he'll go so far as to
create a fictional character and post the same arguments.

I have to try harder to ignore him.

Fortunately, he is back to ignoring me and he hasn't even bothered to
tell me that he's ignoring me. All is right with the world.

But think of it this way - Frank Krygowski is the class clown. He is
recording all his lunacy for posterity. While the thought of him
having kids or grandkids is scary, I relish the thought of his
descendants looking back someday at the record he is leaving behind
and wondering how an ancestor of theirs could be so far out of touch
and so caught up in his own little fantasy world.

It still remains a complete mystery what he might hope to accomplish
by his "One Note Johnny" presentation and badgering of many people in
this group.

He should be very proud;-)

DR

Now we have the gang together congratulating each other.

--
Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.

Tºm Shermªn™ °_° wrote:

Now we have the gang together congratulating each other.

And Tom, as usual, not contributing anything of worth.

JS