Should I block Mr Vandeman's posts?

On Sun, 2 Sep 2007 09:27:51 -0700, "chasw"
wrote:

Admittedly, this is a rhetorical question, since I'm already tired of
reading his anti-MTB rants. However, his obnoxious and unwelcome presence
here raises some interesting questions that should be addressed as I
summarily dismiss him. Here are a few points to consider:



MTB riders as a group are not bad, anymore than hikers, horses and
motorcyclist are.

BS. See below. Mountain bikers ALMOST ALWAYS fail to yield
right-of-way to other trail users.

Hikers, horses and bicycles erode trails in proportion to
their numbers; neither group is more damaging than the others,

BS. Where do you get this nonsense? From the IMBA website? NOw THAT'S
an unbiased source!

although you
can make the case that motorcycles in certain circumstances create more than
their fair share of erosion, e.g., places where hill climbs are conducted.



The fact is, approx 90 percent of the population never leaves the city to
visit wild lands. Of those, approx 90 percent never leave the paved road or
roadside campground. Of those who do venture off into the wild, 90 percent
never leave the prepared trails. Only a very few travel cross country and
of those fewer still attempt to bag a peak. Accordingly, what little
erosion of the landscape occurs in roadless areas is almost entirely
confined to the trails. Perhaps Mr. Vandeman is among those highly refined
hikers who are reluctant to leave the comfort of the trailside, so his
perception of wild land erosion is through a very narrow perspective.



The truth is, people who travel the trails are in conflict with one another,
not with the landscape per se.

BS again. The conflict is entirely due to the presence of BIKES.

Mountain bikes don't cause more erosion or
leave more trash than hikers or horses/mules. The same goes for other kinds
of impact on the land, wildlife or waters. From a birdseye view, the trails
are a very small part of the total landscape.

As any elementary ecology text will tell you (you obviously have never
read one), trails and roads fragment habitat and cause impacts FAR out
of proportion to their physical size.

More or less trail erosion
caused by increasing usage pales in comparison to the impact on wild lands
of road building and logging.

Irrelevant.

The real reason why hikers don't like mountain bikers is because of
competition for the trails. Supposed damage to trails is a red herring. A
pack of MTB riders, whooping and hollering as they race down a trail, tends
to upset hikers who are in their way. I've seen MTBers going fast
carelessly scatter hikers like bowling pins on a narrow trail. To a lesser
extent, hikers tend to look with distain at horses on the trail. Everyone
wants the trail to themselves, which is neither fair or reasonable.



The point is, all who use wild land trails need to recognize these conflicts
and learn to live with them, not lobby to ban other groups such as MTBs or
horses from all trails. It may be practical in some places to segregate
these groups onto trails designated primarily for their use, but most trails
need to be shared.

Hikers are perfectly happy to share trails with mountain bikers, but
not BIKES. BIKES aren't human, and have no rights.

Everyone should exercise care when riding or hiking on a
mixed-use trail. IMO, its OK to keep motorized vehicles out of wilderness
areas. If a hiker wants more solitude, consider leaving the trail and
striking out across country.



No one group of trail users has a right to exclude the others entirely.

No one has ever suggested doing that, liar. All we want to ban is
BIKES. DUH!

I
don't expect Mr Vandeman to buy into this, he is too rabid in his opposition
to MTBs, too prejudiced to think clearly about the inherent conflicts and
accept a reasonable solution. His ranting here is ultimately self
indulgent. Meanwhile, the rest of us should recognize that hikers are
afraid of being hit by a speeding MTBer or kicked by a horse or mule. My
policy is to slow down and say hello when passing a hiker. For their part
hikers should step aside and let horses and MTBs traveling downhill have the
right-of-way.

BS. Hikers have the right of way. They should NEVER yield to bikers.

Share and share alike, that's my motto. The wilderness
belongs to all of us to enjoy and preserve for future generations. Riding
MTBs on trails is entirely consistent with that ethic.


BS. If that were true, there would never be a bike ban. That issue was
settled in federal court in 1994:
http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/mtb10. There is no right to mountain
bike! Do your homework!

Just my opinion, of course - CW


This kind of behavior is so common that I know of two cases where it
has happened during an official trail inspection for deciding whether
to open trails to bikes. Of course, in both cases, it decided the
issue: they voted to close the trails to bikes!

Mike


From: "bob"
Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2007 20:37:15 -0700
Subject: Tolt

I rode Tolt today and wasn't alone; there were other creatures on the
trail:). I was greeted by a Vulture and Snake in the parking lot;
what a
way to start the ride:) Next came the cyclocrossers; whoooooooooosh
and up
the hill they go; how do they do that?

The next part is a gray area for me, I might be wrong or out of line;
I'm
sure you'll let me know:) I'm not sure what others do when they meet
hikers
on the trail because I rarely-if ever go on other people's rides; yawl
ride
too fast for me.

Anyway, my style is to either stop or slow down enough to say hi how
are you
when I meet hikers on the trail; I go out of my way to be respectful.
I
watched a couple guys blast by two groups of hikers today; both with
kids
and dogs.

We were at the top of IAB and IMO, there was no reason they couldn't
have
stopped and yielded the right of way to the hikers; after all, hikers
and
other trail users have the right away. Not these guys, they just
blasted
past everyone. Their dog was running ahead of them and that might be
part of
the reason they didn't stop; the hikers had dogs too, but theirs were
on
leashes. At the very least, I don't think the riders left a good
impression
on the hikers.

I'm not sure what other people think, but as I see it, more and more
people
are going to be using local trails; especially the parks. Most people
do not
ride mountain bikes; we're a minority. I know many of you have been
saying
this for longer than I've been riding, but I think it's very good
business
for us to go out of our way to be courteous to others on the trail;
you
never know who you're going to meet. My 2 cents.

I've got a question about trail work at Tolt, feedback please:) From
the
5-way, I usually head down the South-east road and start on Mystery; I
usually take one of the three trails that branch off in different
directions. I rode the same way as I have for the last few months, but
when
I came to one of the trails I usually take, I found that it had been
blocked; just wondering who's blocking trails and why? The trail
wasn't just
blocked with a log or pile of branches, there was brush piled all up
and
down the trail; somebody didn't want any one riding or using that
spur; my
question is who's blocking the trail like that and why?

I'm not sure where I rode today, but I ended up on some new (to me)
trails.
I went up the road next to the entrance of Vicious Quail and took the
first
trail on the left. I took what seemed like several different trails
and
didn't have a clue where I was. Not sure how I ended up on the trail
that
goes down to the look out, but that's what happened; I followed the
trail
and popped back out on the South Road right in front of the little
trail
that leads to Erik's bridge.

As I was heading down IAB, I passed a small group of riders, one of
them was
holding onto a small black bag. The sack appeared to have something
inside;
it was moving around as if whatever was in there was alive; I swear I
heard
something screeching from inside. Do you think there's a chance the
Attack
Bird was in the sack? Maybe somebody will have to ride Vicious Quail
to see
if the crazy bird is still there.

Bob h
--
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande