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#21
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Thinking Outside The Box
On Feb 27, 8:24*am, Frank Krygowski
wrote: James wrote: When the motor vehicle sensing coils don't sense a bicycle, I don't take a _chance_ it will be safe to proceed, I wait until it _is_ safe. Hell, I look sideways even when the lights are in my favor! Same here. *Wise move. Exactly. What difference does it make what color the light is? (Aside from the fact disregarding it may seem chaotic to an otherwise unaffected observer.) You talked about every (over)confident hotshot thinking they were above average all that, but some of them still get creamed. Well, some of the most law-abiding riders get creamed, too. What difference does the light make (to my safety) if I am cognizant of the physics in play? I can't run a *green* light if it isn't safe to do so. I *can* run a red light if it is. Duh. |
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#22
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Thinking Outside The Box
On Feb 27, 12:11*pm, Dan O wrote:
On Feb 27, 8:24*am, Frank Krygowski wrote: James wrote: When the motor vehicle sensing coils don't sense a bicycle, I don't take a _chance_ it will be safe to proceed, I wait until it _is_ safe. Hell, I look sideways even when the lights are in my favor! Same here. *Wise move. Exactly. *What difference does it make what color the light is? (Aside from the fact disregarding it may seem chaotic to an otherwise unaffected observer.) If it's red, as a practical matter you need to be aware of traffic conditions AND the proximity of law enforcement. DR |
#23
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Thinking Outside The Box
On Feb 27, 10:58*am, gpsman wrote:
On Feb 26, 1:58*pm, " wrote: as I've tried to teach my kids, the reason you actually stop at red lights and, especially, stop signs, since those carry more "ignore" temptation, is so you can stop driving, or cycling, or even walking, and pay attention to *looking*. Twice You sound like a "driver". Drive, and cycle, and walk. Don't want to get hit, don't want to hit anyone, either. Visual perception is not what motorists think it is, despite the fact we've all experienced not seeing something that was right in front of our faces. I about got nailed once when riding when I didn't see a car I didn't want to see. Close enough, and hell no the driver didn't slow down. That was a life-changing moment, proof positive that I was as human as the next guy. I already had my "look twice" rule firmly in place, but ignored it. Well, that's why I had the rule g. Oops! --D-y |
#24
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Thinking Outside The Box
On Feb 26, 10:21*pm, Chalo wrote:
If a cyclist runs a red light and gets smushed, my sympathies are more with the motor vehicle operator. Not an experience to be wished on anyone, and said in spite of the many times I've been used as a pylon or otherwise "as an object of aggression". Agreed. *The blithe idiot is not just hurting himself. *But I'm not in charge of him. *Why should his stupidity dictate what I must do? Y'all are doing a superb job of shifting the ethical burden of piloting stinking death boxes from the offenders to the victims. "Offenders" run red lights. The "eithical burden" you're speaking of also involves not making a mess on law-abiding citizens' bumpers and windshields, and not imposing a burden on the healthcare system by not carrying insurance while driving, riding, or walking in an irresponsible manner. I'll agree that enforcement of law and "principle of law", to try to express a sense of responsibility for actions, are sorely lacking. Yup, you can kill or severely injure another human being in a variety of manners, not just by driving a "stinking death box", and skate-- or at least not pay much of a penalty, compared to what happens to the victim. Life, it turns out, is cheap, no matter what they taught you in school g. --D-y |
#25
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Thinking Outside The Box
add genocide
ask yourself ! whosah goona run lights ? |
#26
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Thinking Outside The Box
Dan O wrote:
On Feb 27, 8:24 am, Frank Krygowski wrote: James wrote: When the motor vehicle sensing coils don't sense a bicycle, I don't take a _chance_ it will be safe to proceed, I wait until it _is_ safe. Hell, I look sideways even when the lights are in my favor! Same here. Wise move. Exactly. What difference does it make what color the light is? (Aside from the fact disregarding it may seem chaotic to an otherwise unaffected observer.) You talked about every (over)confident hotshot thinking they were above average all that, but some of them still get creamed. Well, some of the most law-abiding riders get creamed, too. What difference does the light make (to my safety) if I am cognizant of the physics in play? I can't run a *green* light if it isn't safe to do so. I *can* run a red light if it is. Duh. Dan O, Since you asked - some differences: If you run a red light on your bicycle, it creates or reinforces the image that some motorists have that all bicycle riders are law offenders and should be treated as such. If you run a red light on your bicycle, it models this potentially risky behavior for others, who may not be so cognizent, and are hurt when emulating you. If you run a red light on your bicycle, it models unlawful behavior for the more impressionable members of our society, particularly children. Kerry |
#27
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Thinking Outside The Box
On Feb 27, 9:50*am, Phil W Lee wrote:
Jay Beattie considered Mon, 27 Feb 2012 07:18:04 -0800 (PST) the perfect time to write: On Feb 26, 10:06*pm, Joe Riel wrote: Frank Krygowski writes: So I obey traffic lights, with very rare exceptions. *Works for me. So what do you guys do when the lights don't switch for you? * I'll turn left on a red arrow if I didn't get the green when I should, the straight-through is green, and it is safe to proceed. *I just treat it like an uncontrolled left-turn. I do that too, but I've hunted all through the vehicle code and not been able to find anything that says that I can do it legally. *The only relevant exception to not following a traffic control device is when you are signaled through by a cop, at least in Oregon. -- Jay Beattie. I'm surprised there's no exception covering faulty lights, as we have here in the UK. *This legitimises proceeding through a light that fails to detect your presence (although you have to wait long enough to be sure it hasn't).- Hide quoted text - There is an exception relating to traffic control signs that are not conspicuous as required under a different chapter (not the vehicle code), but I found nothing dealing with lights that were malfunctioning or that would not cycle. If Frank has a UVC cite, I could see if there is an Oregon VC corollary. -- Jay Beattie. |
#28
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Thinking Outside The Box
On Feb 27, 6:49*pm, Jay Beattie wrote:
On Feb 27, 9:50*am, Phil W Lee wrote: Jay Beattie considered Mon, 27 Feb 2012 07:18:04 -0800 (PST) the perfect time to write: On Feb 26, 10:06*pm, Joe Riel wrote: Frank Krygowski writes: So I obey traffic lights, with very rare exceptions. *Works for me. So what do you guys do when the lights don't switch for you? * I'll turn left on a red arrow if I didn't get the green when I should, the straight-through is green, and it is safe to proceed. *I just treat it like an uncontrolled left-turn. I do that too, but I've hunted all through the vehicle code and not been able to find anything that says that I can do it legally. *The only relevant exception to not following a traffic control device is when you are signaled through by a cop, at least in Oregon. -- Jay Beattie. I'm surprised there's no exception covering faulty lights, as we have here in the UK. *This legitimises proceeding through a light that fails to detect your presence (although you have to wait long enough to be sure it hasn't).- Hide quoted text - There is an exception relating to traffic control signs that are not conspicuous as required under a different chapter (not the vehicle code), but I found nothing dealing with lights that were malfunctioning or that would not cycle. If Frank has a UVC cite, I could see if there is an Oregon VC corollary. -- Jay Beattie. For Phil: In the U.S., traffic laws are enacted by the individual states, and thus vary somewhat state by state. The Uniform Vehicle Code is provided as a model, and most states probably match it at least 95%. But particularly regarding bicycles, many states have exercised some ill-advised creativity. For Jay: I didn't check, but I suspect the UVC has nothing about dealing with a stuck red light. Ohio law allows proceeding reasonably if the signal displays no light at all, or an impossible combination of lights, but that's not the same thing. In theory, a stuck red would generate an immovable queue of all vehicles that encountered it! The Ohio Bicycle Federation has had a proposal out (i.e. carefully chosen replacement wording) for about two years to fix that problem, as well as some others. Unfortunately, we've been disappointed in getting a legislator to sponsor such a bill. One legislator did check our all our proposals, but instead of sponsoring the entire group, as in the past, the legislator picked only one low-priority item and didn't push that very hard. We're still trying. - Frank Krygowski |
#29
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Thinking Outside The Box
AHD Fu
BUTT if yawl run red lights, practice running rREd lights the yawl get good at what ? I have amove in the rain for the ONNNNNNNRAMMMMMMMMPPPPPP WHERE I get the 401 goin 75+, give the pattern a quick analysis, and ifn there's a hole THROW it across 3-4 lanes to the thru lane and accelrate. great fun. |
#30
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Thinking Outside The Box
On Feb 27, 5:17*pm, " wrote:
I about got nailed once when riding when I didn't see a car I didn't want to see. Close enough, and hell no the driver didn't slow down. That was a life-changing moment, proof positive that I was as human as the next guy. I already had my "look twice" rule firmly in place, but ignored it. Well, that's why I had the rule g. Oops! --D-y The scariest moment for me, personally, was during three+ weeks cycling Ireland. After weeks, I was sure I was well-used to the driving on the left, but at one blind corner stop sign, my brain somehow reverted to U.S. geometry. I looked at an oncoming car and somehow thought "he's moving away from me" or something. Fortunately, it wasn't close to a crash, but it scared me well awake. Even scarier was a ride with several friends plus our son when he was about eleven. Six of us had been waiting about 30 seconds to cross a divided four lane, chatting as we waited for traffic to clear. Our son suddenly and inexplicably started to ride forward on his own, into the path of an oncoming semi. Of course we all yelled, the driver hit brakes and horn, and our kid stopped, but it was terrifying. Last scary example: Either last year or the year before, one of the national Board members of the League of American Bicyclists was killed when he suddenly turned left on his bike directly in front of an oncoming car. This despite a lifelong reputation for safety consciousness and terrific competence. Tragic, and especially so because he was one of the genuine good guys. - Frank Krygowski |
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