vale, Erwin Pesek

On 3/12/2012 11:31 AM, AMuzi wrote:
Dan O wrote:
On Mar 11, 5:01 pm, AMuzi wrote:
http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/chi...y.aspx?n=erwin...
(print edition had a very nice 1/4 page with racing photo)

photo, 2d from
left:http://classiccycleus.com/home/wp-co...06/PesekPesekF...


photo, jersey
#13:http://classiccycleus.com/home/wp-co...08/Jacoby-and-...


Irv was more than a
cyclist:http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2...070297_1_veter...


"The price of liberty is eternal vigilance," Erwin said,
adding that veterans are the backbone of democracy.
...
In a common refrain Wednesday, Pesek said he was afraid
that although veterans will never forget, others will.
"They think it's a movie," Pesek said. "You're like
yesterday's news, like it never happened. You ask people
about D-Day--they don't even know what D-Day is."
Pesek lost many friends that day the Allies landed in
Normandy. On Wednesday, he wished aloud that the gathered
children would visit a national cemetery to see the rows of
soldiers' graves and understand freedom's cost.


Unfortunate price. With all due respect, seems so unnecessary. Gotta
be a better way, a better "freedom", even.

It is indeed a high price.

http://vrritti.com/2011/12/17/ted-ta...peter-van-uhm/


or
http://preview.tinyurl.com/7p65upg

At 18 minutes, it's longish, by modern attention span standards but a
well considered viewpoint.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-10829837

1 August 2010

Dutch troops end Afghanistan deployment

The Netherlands has ended its military mission in Afghanistan, after
four years

On 3/12/2012 12:35 PM, wrote:
On Mar 12, 10:31 am, wrote:
Dan O wrote:
On Mar 11, 5:01 pm, wrote:
http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/chi...y.aspx?n=erwin...
(print edition had a very nice 1/4 page with racing photo)

photo, 2d from left:http://classiccycleus.com/home/wp-co...06/PesekPesekF...

photo, jersey #13:http://classiccycleus.com/home/wp-co...08/Jacoby-and-...

Irv was more than a cyclist:http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2...070297_1_veter...

"The price of liberty is eternal vigilance," Erwin said,
adding that veterans are the backbone of democracy.
...
In a common refrain Wednesday, Pesek said he was afraid
that although veterans will never forget, others will.
"They think it's a movie," Pesek said. "You're like
yesterday's news, like it never happened. You ask people
about D-Day--they don't even know what D-Day is."
Pesek lost many friends that day the Allies landed in
Normandy. On Wednesday, he wished aloud that the gathered
children would visit a national cemetery to see the rows of
soldiers' graves and understand freedom's cost.

Unfortunate price. With all due respect, seems so unnecessary. Gotta
be a better way, a better "freedom", even.

It is indeed a high price.

http://vrritti.com/2011/12/17/ted-ta...gun-to-create-...

orhttp://preview.tinyurl.com/7p65upg

At 18 minutes, it's longish, by modern attention span
standards but a well considered viewpoint.

That was, also, a well-considered rhetorical presentation.
One important (IMHO) take-away is the demeanor of the Amsterdam
audience. Like Pops Staples said, "Let the gentleman do his thing
("Respect Yourself"). You can bet there were many present who were
biting tongues but I didn't hear a peep, and only one stir of random
coughing that I would bet was entirely "biological". Either being old
enough to remember yourself, or having parents and relatives tell
stories of seeing German parachutists invading Dutch cities might have
had something to do with that. As well as might having memories and
stories of family members and neighbors being taken away to serve as
slave labor, or soldiers, never to be seen again.

(opinion) It's not the soldiers that are "the problem", it's the
politicians.
--D-y

I thought his example was poor. The real problem for the Dutch wasn't
their crappy guns, but the numerous excellent guns of the Nazis. A more
capable defense would have just meant a lot more dead Dutch. The
solution to gun violence in most of the world is fewer guns, not more of
them. It is well within the power of the industrial world to stop the
production of firearms.

On 3/12/2012 1:03 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
Chalo wrote:
Dan O wrote:

AMuzi wrote:

Pesek lost many friends that day the Allies landed in
Normandy. On Wednesday, he wished aloud that the gathered
children would visit a national cemetery to see the rows of
soldiers' graves and understand freedom's cost.

Unfortunate price. With all due respect, seems so unnecessary. Gotta
be a better way, a better "freedom", even.

Yep. The "freedom" we won in WWII was the Red Scare, the Cold War,
and the MIC as we know it. Along with a lot of other side benefits
like persistent toxic chemicals from megacorps, millions of twisted
scarred-for-life *******s masquerading as normal men, undisclosed
releases of plutonium, etc. Oh, and concentration camps full of
American-born people of Japanese descent. We probably should have
kept those camps around so that gatherings of children could visit
them and begin to understand "freedom's" cost.

As usual, we don't know what the alternative would have been. If we'd
let Hitler have Western Europe, let Stalin have Eastern Europe, and let
the Japanese have the western Pacific region would things really have
worked out better? Seems unlikely.

It's interesting to me that Christianity has officially abandoned the
"turn the other cheek" idea, at least with respect to accepting that
there can be "just war." And of course, there are others that think,
with some historic justification, that pacifism can become ethnic suicide.

Maybe the solution is to be pacifist on a one-to-one basis, but to
reluctantly accept that fighting might become necessary, as an absolute
last resort, when conflicts become bigger.


When I think about things like this I often remember the Canadian
revolution and civil war.

Peter Cole wrote:
On 3/12/2012 12:35 PM, wrote:
On Mar 12, 10:31 am, wrote:
Dan O wrote:
On Mar 11, 5:01 pm, wrote:
http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/chi...y.aspx?n=erwin...

(print edition had a very nice 1/4 page with racing photo)

photo, 2d from
left:http://classiccycleus.com/home/wp-co...06/PesekPesekF...


photo, jersey
#13:http://classiccycleus.com/home/wp-co...08/Jacoby-and-...


Irv was more than a
cyclist:http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2...070297_1_veter...


"The price of liberty is eternal vigilance," Erwin said,
adding that veterans are the backbone of democracy.
...
In a common refrain Wednesday, Pesek said he was afraid
that although veterans will never forget, others will.
"They think it's a movie," Pesek said. "You're like
yesterday's news, like it never happened. You ask people
about D-Day--they don't even know what D-Day is."
Pesek lost many friends that day the Allies landed in
Normandy. On Wednesday, he wished aloud that the gathered
children would visit a national cemetery to see the rows of
soldiers' graves and understand freedom's cost.

Unfortunate price. With all due respect, seems so unnecessary. Gotta
be a better way, a better "freedom", even.

It is indeed a high price.

http://vrritti.com/2011/12/17/ted-ta...gun-to-create-...

orhttp://preview.tinyurl.com/7p65upg

At 18 minutes, it's longish, by modern attention span
standards but a well considered viewpoint.

That was, also, a well-considered rhetorical presentation.
One important (IMHO) take-away is the demeanor of the Amsterdam
audience. Like Pops Staples said, "Let the gentleman do his thing
("Respect Yourself"). You can bet there were many present who were
biting tongues but I didn't hear a peep, and only one stir of random
coughing that I would bet was entirely "biological". Either being old
enough to remember yourself, or having parents and relatives tell
stories of seeing German parachutists invading Dutch cities might have
had something to do with that. As well as might having memories and
stories of family members and neighbors being taken away to serve as
slave labor, or soldiers, never to be seen again.

(opinion) It's not the soldiers that are "the problem", it's the
politicians.
--D-y

I thought his example was poor. The real problem for the Dutch wasn't
their crappy guns, but the numerous excellent guns of the Nazis. A more
capable defense would have just meant a lot more dead Dutch. The
solution to gun violence in most of the world is fewer guns, not more of
them. It is well within the power of the industrial world to stop the
production of firearms.

And then we can go after wrist rockets, machetes, homemade
nitro iodide... should be simple; just clear every human
dwelling every month or so.

Paraphrasing Clausewitz and Sun Tzu,'the enemy gets a vote'.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Mar 12, 1:40*pm, AMuzi wrote:
wrote:
On Mar 12, 12:03 pm, Frank Krygowski
wrote:
Chalo wrote:
Dan O wrote:
AMuzi wrote:
* * Pesek lost many friends that day the Allies landed in
Normandy. On Wednesday, he wished aloud that the gathered
children would visit a national cemetery to see the rows of
soldiers' graves and understand freedom's cost.
Unfortunate price. *With all due respect, seems so unnecessary. *Gotta
be a better way, a better "freedom", even.
Yep. *The "freedom" we won in WWII was the Red Scare, the Cold War,
and the MIC as we know it. *Along with a lot of other side benefits
like persistent toxic chemicals from megacorps, millions of twisted
scarred-for-life *******s masquerading as normal men, undisclosed
releases of plutonium, etc. *Oh, and concentration camps full of
American-born people of Japanese descent. *We probably should have
kept those camps around so that gatherings of children could visit
them and begin to understand "freedom's" cost.
As usual, we don't know what the alternative would have been. *If we'd
let Hitler have Western Europe, let Stalin have Eastern Europe, and let
the Japanese have the western Pacific region would things really have
worked out better? *Seems unlikely.

It's interesting to me that Christianity has officially abandoned the
"turn the other cheek" idea, at least with respect to accepting that
there can be "just war." *And of course, there are others that think,
with some historic justification, that pacifism can become ethnic suicide.

Maybe the solution is to be pacifist on a one-to-one basis, but to
reluctantly accept that fighting might become necessary, as an absolute
last resort, when conflicts become bigger.

--
- Frank Krygowski

So where do we stand on the bananna wars in Central America? Pineapple
plantations in Hawaii? Just for a couple of quickies off the top of my
head...
--D-y

I merely quoted a recently dead and amazingly accomplished
man who had, deservedly, my respect.

Read into that whatever you wish.

I meant to say "respect" but got ahead of myself. I apologize for that
haste, and offer amends.

I spent part of a day and a night in Bastogne. There is a Sherman tank
parked in the town square. Despite what you might read or hear about
"the French", the attitude I encountered in Bastogne (and 99% of the
rest of my near-month in France and Holland) was nothing but positive.
The hotel in Bastogne had a wall of WWII "mementos" and the man at the
desk, who I assume was the owner/operator, was-- gotta use the word--
solicitous, and respectful; ditto a waitress at the local pizza place/
bar (they instantly identify Americans, just to be clear). I have
heard the sentiment expressed that "the French" specifically but other
Europeans as well, are respectful of men who fought and died for other
peoples' freedom-- in other words, the war in Europe was not "the
Americans' (including Canadians) fight; thus the American and Canadian
soldiers "didn't have to be there" (yes, I know, the draft, etc.), at
very least as a necessity of the survival of their own countries.

Leaving "politics" out of it at least for a moment, to show respect
for what Mr. Pesek and many, many other men did. That was a dirty,
repugnant job that had to be done. And even with the evils that Hitler
perpetrated on conquered countries, this was not "America's fight";
never forgetting the backdrop of the horrors of trench warfare in the
First World War, the reactions to which were powerfully exploited by
Hitler & Co.
--D-y

On Mar 12, 2:14*pm, Peter Cole wrote:
On 3/12/2012 12:35 PM, wrote:









On Mar 12, 10:31 am, *wrote:
Dan O wrote:
On Mar 11, 5:01 pm, *wrote:
http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/chi...y.aspx?n=erwin...
(print edition had a very nice 1/4 page with racing photo)

photo, 2d from left:http://classiccycleus.com/home/wp-co...06/PesekPesekF...

photo, jersey #13:http://classiccycleus.com/home/wp-co...08/Jacoby-and-...

Irv was more than a cyclist:http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2...070297_1_veter...

* * "The price of liberty is eternal vigilance," Erwin said,
adding that veterans are the backbone of democracy.
...
* * In a common refrain Wednesday, Pesek said he was afraid
that although veterans will never forget, others will.
* * "They think it's a movie," Pesek said. "You're like
yesterday's news, like it never happened. You ask people
about D-Day--they don't even know what D-Day is."
* * Pesek lost many friends that day the Allies landed in
Normandy. On Wednesday, he wished aloud that the gathered
children would visit a national cemetery to see the rows of
soldiers' graves and understand freedom's cost.

Unfortunate price. *With all due respect, seems so unnecessary. *Gotta
be a better way, a better "freedom", even.

It is indeed a high price.

http://vrritti.com/2011/12/17/ted-ta...gun-to-create-....

orhttp://preview.tinyurl.com/7p65upg

At 18 minutes, it's longish, by modern attention span
standards but a well considered viewpoint.

That was, also, a well-considered rhetorical presentation.
One important (IMHO) take-away is the demeanor of the Amsterdam
audience. Like Pops Staples said, "Let the gentleman do his thing
("Respect Yourself"). You can bet there were many present who were
biting *tongues but I didn't hear a peep, and only one stir of random
coughing that I would bet was entirely "biological". Either being old
enough to remember yourself, or having parents and relatives tell
stories of seeing German parachutists invading Dutch cities might have
had something to do with that. As well as might having memories and
stories of family members and neighbors being taken away to serve as
slave labor, or soldiers, never to be seen again.

(opinion) It's not the soldiers that are "the problem", it's the
politicians.
--D-y

I thought his example was poor. The real problem for the Dutch wasn't
their crappy guns, but the numerous excellent guns of the Nazis. A more
capable defense would have just meant a lot more dead Dutch. The
solution to gun violence in most of the world is fewer guns, not more of
them. It is well within the power of the industrial world to stop the
production of firearms.

I have to say, a really obvious, and undeniably capable and effective
defense might have meant that Hitler stayed home, built more fancy
highways and played with his wee-wee instead of wreaking horrible
revenge for the wrongs inflicted on Germany as a result of "losing"
WWI. Just a possibility there, do you think? I mean, given real
prosperity, would there have been a need to scapegoat the Jews in a
Final Solution, in the first place?
--D-y

On Mar 12, 12:44*pm, Frank Krygowski
wrote:
wrote:
On Mar 12, 12:03 pm, Frank
wrote:
... *If we'd
let Hitler have Western Europe, let Stalin have Eastern Europe, and let
the Japanese have the western Pacific region would things really have
worked out better? *Seems unlikely.

It's interesting to me that Christianity has officially abandoned the
"turn the other cheek" idea, at least with respect to accepting that
there can be "just war." *And of course, there are others that think,
with some historic justification, that pacifism can become ethnic suicide.

Maybe the solution is to be pacifist on a one-to-one basis, but to
reluctantly accept that fighting might become necessary, as an absolute
last resort, when conflicts become bigger.

--
- Frank Krygowski

So where do we stand on the bananna wars in Central America? Pineapple
plantations in Hawaii? Just for a couple of quickies off the top of my
head...
--D-y

I'd like more specifics on the conflicts you're talking about; you
probably know more about them than I do.

I'll readily admit that there have been lots of wars and conflicts I
didn't, or wouldn't, approve of. *That includes many inside the present USA.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Don't know much detail. Your researching abilities are far superior to
mine.
I had to go refresh my memory, and Wiki provided a nice "shortcut" to
a quote I've read previously. Freely confessing that there might be
other viewpoints and that my "knowledge" is very shallow-- if maybe
accurate in some respects.

Wiki, "Banana Wars":
(quote) Perhaps the single most active military officer in the Banana
Wars was U.S. Marine Corps Major General, Smedley Butler, who saw
action in Honduras in 1903, served in Nicaragua enforcing American
policy from 1909–1912, was awarded the Medal of Honor for his role in
Veracruz in 1914, and a second Medal of Honor for bravery while
"crush(ing) the Caco resistance" in Haiti in 1915. In 1935, Butler
wrote in his famous book War Is a Racket:

(quoting Butler) I spent 33 years and four months in active military
service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class
muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In
short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism. I helped make
Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914.
I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank
boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen
Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. I helped
purify Nicaragua for the International Banking House of Brown Brothers
in 1902-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for the
American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras right for the
American fruit companies in 1903. In China in 1927 I helped see to it
that Standard Oil went on its way unmolested. Looking back on it, I
might have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to
operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents.
(end Butler quote, end Wiki quote)

The "thing" that bothers me in all this is the thread of "political
'wars'"; military actions that are not actual legal wars as set forth
in the laws of the United States of America-- that is, that Congress
did not declare a State of War in many instances where American
soldiers were sent to fight and die, but that "end runs around the
Constitution" were made. Further, that the highest laws of our nation
should be and are promulgated to protect the "little man" (see "Life,
Liberty, the Pursuit of Happiness") from wars of foreign adventure,
and, especially, "political" wars, and political wars that, as such,
are not fought to be won in a military sense, but fought for other
reasons not always-- or perhaps often-- revealed.

The two "big ones" of course being the Korean Conflict and the
Vietnam... "War".

FDR, in his Dec 8, 1941 "Day of Infamy speech: "I ask that the
Congress declare that since the unprovoked and dastardly attack by
Japan on Sunday, December seventh, a state of war has existed between
the United States and the Japanese Empire.".

As far as I know, that's the last time the directions on the box were
followed.
--D-y

The solution to gun violence in most of the world is fewer guns, not more
of
them.

Sadly, this naivety is proven to be a DAMN LIE.

It is well within the power of the industrial world to stop the production
of firearms.

Which is why I vote, support the NRA, and curse the maggots bowing to
the UN on disarming our civilians.

My father served in the Pacific theatre.

His lineage was preserved by the crews of the Enola Gay and Bockscar.

Many of his kind paid a heavy price for some to have the right to talk
****.

War may be brutal, as can be self defense, but the truth is no matter
how much a pacifist you wish to be, some ******* somewhere wants to
terminate you and your bloodline with extreme prejudice. Being a pacifist
with a more devastating weapon you're willing to use if necisary seems to be
the best way to be able to remain one.

Curtis

On 3/12/2012 4:25 PM, AMuzi wrote:
Peter Cole wrote:
On 3/12/2012 12:35 PM, wrote:
On Mar 12, 10:31 am, wrote:
Dan O wrote:
On Mar 11, 5:01 pm, wrote:
http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/chi...y.aspx?n=erwin...

(print edition had a very nice 1/4 page with racing photo)

photo, 2d from
left:http://classiccycleus.com/home/wp-co...06/PesekPesekF...


photo, jersey
#13:http://classiccycleus.com/home/wp-co...08/Jacoby-and-...


Irv was more than a
cyclist:http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2...070297_1_veter...


"The price of liberty is eternal vigilance," Erwin said,
adding that veterans are the backbone of democracy.
...
In a common refrain Wednesday, Pesek said he was afraid
that although veterans will never forget, others will.
"They think it's a movie," Pesek said. "You're like
yesterday's news, like it never happened. You ask people
about D-Day--they don't even know what D-Day is."
Pesek lost many friends that day the Allies landed in
Normandy. On Wednesday, he wished aloud that the gathered
children would visit a national cemetery to see the rows of
soldiers' graves and understand freedom's cost.

Unfortunate price. With all due respect, seems so unnecessary. Gotta
be a better way, a better "freedom", even.

It is indeed a high price.

http://vrritti.com/2011/12/17/ted-ta...gun-to-create-...


orhttp://preview.tinyurl.com/7p65upg

At 18 minutes, it's longish, by modern attention span
standards but a well considered viewpoint.

That was, also, a well-considered rhetorical presentation.
One important (IMHO) take-away is the demeanor of the Amsterdam
audience. Like Pops Staples said, "Let the gentleman do his thing
("Respect Yourself"). You can bet there were many present who were
biting tongues but I didn't hear a peep, and only one stir of random
coughing that I would bet was entirely "biological". Either being old
enough to remember yourself, or having parents and relatives tell
stories of seeing German parachutists invading Dutch cities might have
had something to do with that. As well as might having memories and
stories of family members and neighbors being taken away to serve as
slave labor, or soldiers, never to be seen again.

(opinion) It's not the soldiers that are "the problem", it's the
politicians.
--D-y

I thought his example was poor. The real problem for the Dutch wasn't
their crappy guns, but the numerous excellent guns of the Nazis. A
more capable defense would have just meant a lot more dead Dutch. The
solution to gun violence in most of the world is fewer guns, not more
of them. It is well within the power of the industrial world to stop
the production of firearms.

And then we can go after wrist rockets, machetes, homemade nitro
iodide... should be simple; just clear every human dwelling every month
or so.

Paraphrasing Clausewitz and Sun Tzu,'the enemy gets a vote'.


Well Rwanda demonstrates what determined people can do with only
machetes, so I take your point. Still I think the way forward in human
evolution is fewer, not more, AK's.

On 3/12/2012 4:43 PM, wrote:

Leaving "politics" out of it at least for a moment, to show respect
for what Mr. Pesek and many, many other men did. That was a dirty,
repugnant job that had to be done. And even with the evils that Hitler
perpetrated on conquered countries, this was not "America's fight";
never forgetting the backdrop of the horrors of trench warfare in the
First World War, the reactions to which were powerfully exploited by
Hitler& Co.

Just to be clear, I don't dishonor warriors, but war. It may be true
that WWII was something of an "honorable" war, in a rare modern
exception, but it was (arguably) precipitated by a very dishonorable
peace. Human stupidity is nothing to celebrate.