installin mah brakes

Hank wrote:
On Apr 18, 8:38 pm, Nate Nagel wrote:

The LBS with all the shiny new stuff is a couple miles away,
but I have one close enough that i can even carry the bike on my
shoulder that far, and that may be the better place for this kind of
issue anyway, it's sort of a hole in the wall with all sorts of crap all
over the place and tons of parts bikes piled up out back.



I love shops like that. I worked at one all through high school.
Before it was a bike shop, it was a hardware store, so we still had
brass pipe fittings, a paint shaker, and I'm pretty sure we were the
only bike shop in town that could duplicate keys while you wait.

Well I think I made the right call. Took the bike over around 11, with
all the parts in a baggie (new brakes and suicide levers) guy took one
look at the brakes and said "well, that's wrong" said $80 to fix which
seemed high but I assume that includes the "you didn't buy those new
brakes from me" tax. Just called me about 15 min. ago to let me know it
was done (it's 1:05 as I type this.) Might have to consider this my new
favorite bike shop even though my bike-riding friend prefers Performance
Cycle. I'll see what his prices are on a decent set of pedals.

Yay! I get to ride this weekend!

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On Apr 18, 8:38 pm, Nate Nagel wrote:
Nate Nagel wrote:
landotter wrote:

On Apr 18, 6:00 pm, Nate Nagel wrote:

2) I've seen references to "toe in" when setting the pads but the
concept is still unclear to me exactly what it's referring to - does
this mean that I should set the pad so that the leading edge or front
(of the bike) surface of the pad should contact the rim slightly before
the rear?

yeah, because the force of braking will pull and twist the pad and arm
a bit. If you don't have toe in, you can get chatter and squeal. A fat
postal rubber band around the back part of the pad is a good way to
estimate the toe in when snugging things up.

Thanks for the tip, that makes a lot of sense. Sounds easier than
trying to snug it up with the brakes released.

nate

I just realized that i phrased my original question badly, such that I
am still confused even given your answer - which end of the pad do I
want to contact the rim first?

1) the leading edge - which would be the *rear* of the pad

or

2) the actual *front* of the pad?

or does it not really matter, just that the pad should not contact the
rim squarely?


Yes, your initial reference to "... leading edge..." had it backwards,
although your clarification "... front
(of the bike)..." made it clear that you knew which end to toe in
(having toes are at the front end of my foot helps me remember what
this means, too :-)

The fact that you noticed this yourself (the forward end of the
caliper on a top mounted rim brake would be the trailing edge - at
least when the bike is moving forward), and the discussion of your
experience with motor cars, indicates that you're gonna be all right.

Summer's coming. Keep on riding.

Dan O wrote:
On Apr 18, 8:38 pm, Nate Nagel wrote:

Nate Nagel wrote:

landotter wrote:

On Apr 18, 6:00 pm, Nate Nagel wrote:

2) I've seen references to "toe in" when setting the pads but the
concept is still unclear to me exactly what it's referring to - does
this mean that I should set the pad so that the leading edge or front
(of the bike) surface of the pad should contact the rim slightly before
the rear?

yeah, because the force of braking will pull and twist the pad and arm
a bit. If you don't have toe in, you can get chatter and squeal. A fat
postal rubber band around the back part of the pad is a good way to
estimate the toe in when snugging things up.

Thanks for the tip, that makes a lot of sense. Sounds easier than
trying to snug it up with the brakes released.

nate

I just realized that i phrased my original question badly, such that I
am still confused even given your answer - which end of the pad do I
want to contact the rim first?

1) the leading edge - which would be the *rear* of the pad

or

2) the actual *front* of the pad?

or does it not really matter, just that the pad should not contact the
rim squarely?



Yes, your initial reference to "... leading edge..." had it backwards,
although your clarification "... front
(of the bike)..." made it clear that you knew which end to toe in
(having toes are at the front end of my foot helps me remember what
this means, too :-)

The fact that you noticed this yourself (the forward end of the
caliper on a top mounted rim brake would be the trailing edge - at
least when the bike is moving forward), and the discussion of your
experience with motor cars, indicates that you're gonna be all right.

Summer's coming. Keep on riding.


Summer's *here* (DC area.) Farkin' hot, at least for this damnyankee.

SWMBO is out and about right now, but as soon as she gets back I'm going
to try to talk her into a ride.

BTW the LBS is officially the shiznit, my kinda place. should have gone
there first. bill magically got knocked down to $60 by the time I got
there, then became $40 when he found out I didn't want my old brakes,
and when I asked about pedals he showed me a bucket full of old Looks
and SPDs from "customers who have upgraded." I'll definitely be back there.

I don't know why the PO "upgraded" the brakes, these feel fine. None of
the Cannondale fork shudder I've read about, either. Just used the
stock Tektro pads, didn't bother to order the Kool Stops that I'd
thought I might need to be happy with it. Only problem - can't easily
disengage cantis to drop the wheels, I might have to loosen the
adjustment at the cantis where the cable clamps on and then tighten it
back up at the suicide bars. Other than that, I'm happy, and I don't
forsee lots of throwing the bike in the trunk of the car anyway.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On Apr 19, 1:01 pm, Nate Nagel wrote:
Dan O wrote:
On Apr 18, 8:38 pm, Nate Nagel wrote:

Nate Nagel wrote:

landotter wrote:

On Apr 18, 6:00 pm, Nate Nagel wrote:

2) I've seen references to "toe in" when setting the pads but the
concept is still unclear to me exactly what it's referring to - does
this mean that I should set the pad so that the leading edge or front
(of the bike) surface of the pad should contact the rim slightly before
the rear?

yeah, because the force of braking will pull and twist the pad and arm
a bit. If you don't have toe in, you can get chatter and squeal. A fat
postal rubber band around the back part of the pad is a good way to
estimate the toe in when snugging things up.

Thanks for the tip, that makes a lot of sense. Sounds easier than
trying to snug it up with the brakes released.

nate

I just realized that i phrased my original question badly, such that I
am still confused even given your answer - which end of the pad do I
want to contact the rim first?

1) the leading edge - which would be the *rear* of the pad

or

2) the actual *front* of the pad?

or does it not really matter, just that the pad should not contact the
rim squarely?

Yes, your initial reference to "... leading edge..." had it backwards,
although your clarification "... front
(of the bike)..." made it clear that you knew which end to toe in
(having toes are at the front end of my foot helps me remember what
this means, too :-)

The fact that you noticed this yourself (the forward end of the
caliper on a top mounted rim brake would be the trailing edge - at
least when the bike is moving forward), and the discussion of your
experience with motor cars, indicates that you're gonna be all right.

Summer's coming. Keep on riding.

Summer's *here* (DC area.) Farkin' hot, at least for this damnyankee.

SWMBO is out and about right now, but as soon as she gets back I'm going
to try to talk her into a ride.

BTW the LBS is officially the shiznit, my kinda place. should have gone
there first. bill magically got knocked down to $60 by the time I got
there, then became $40 when he found out I didn't want my old brakes,
and when I asked about pedals he showed me a bucket full of old Looks
and SPDs from "customers who have upgraded." I'll definitely be back there.

I don't know why the PO "upgraded" the brakes, these feel fine. None of
the Cannondale fork shudder I've read about, either. Just used the
stock Tektro pads, didn't bother to order the Kool Stops that I'd
thought I might need to be happy with it. Only problem - can't easily
disengage cantis to drop the wheels, I might have to loosen the
adjustment at the cantis where the cable clamps on and then tighten it
back up at the suicide bars.

You should be able to run cantis a little slacker from the rim than
caliper brakes, thus making the cross wire easier to disengage. You
can also try using one size linkage wire up. It'll slightly reduce
your mechanical advantage, but worth trying if you can't set the pads
both far enough away to quick release and not bottom the lever out on
the bar--something common on cross bikes--Kona Jakes come set up like
that, amusingly enough.

As far as the pads go, indeed Tektro stock pads are plenty good to not
upgrade till they wear out unless you're using them in unusual
conditions. For summer road use, they're plenty good.

landotter wrote in
:

On Apr 19, 1:01 pm, Nate Nagel wrote:
Dan O wrote:
On Apr 18, 8:38 pm, Nate Nagel wrote:

Nate Nagel wrote:

landotter wrote:

On Apr 18, 6:00 pm, Nate Nagel wrote:

2) I've seen references to "toe in" when setting the pads but
the concept is still unclear to me exactly what it's referring
to - does this mean that I should set the pad so that the
leading edge or front (of the bike) surface of the pad should
contact the rim slightly before the rear?

yeah, because the force of braking will pull and twist the pad
and arm a bit. If you don't have toe in, you can get chatter and
squeal. A fat postal rubber band around the back part of the pad
is a good way to estimate the toe in when snugging things up.

Thanks for the tip, that makes a lot of sense. Sounds easier than
trying to snug it up with the brakes released.

nate

I just realized that i phrased my original question badly, such
that I am still confused even given your answer - which end of the
pad do I want to contact the rim first?

1) the leading edge - which would be the *rear* of the pad

or

2) the actual *front* of the pad?

or does it not really matter, just that the pad should not contact
the rim squarely?

Yes, your initial reference to "... leading edge..." had it
backwards, although your clarification "... front
(of the bike)..." made it clear that you knew which end to toe in
(having toes are at the front end of my foot helps me remember what
this means, too :-)

The fact that you noticed this yourself (the forward end of the
caliper on a top mounted rim brake would be the trailing edge - at
least when the bike is moving forward), and the discussion of your
experience with motor cars, indicates that you're gonna be all
right.

Summer's coming. Keep on riding.

Summer's *here* (DC area.) Farkin' hot, at least for this
damnyankee.

SWMBO is out and about right now, but as soon as she gets back I'm
going to try to talk her into a ride.

BTW the LBS is officially the shiznit, my kinda place. should have
gone there first. bill magically got knocked down to $60 by the time
I got there, then became $40 when he found out I didn't want my old
brakes, and when I asked about pedals he showed me a bucket full of
old Looks and SPDs from "customers who have upgraded." I'll
definitely be back there.

I don't know why the PO "upgraded" the brakes, these feel fine. None
of the Cannondale fork shudder I've read about, either. Just used
the stock Tektro pads, didn't bother to order the Kool Stops that I'd
thought I might need to be happy with it. Only problem - can't
easily disengage cantis to drop the wheels, I might have to loosen
the adjustment at the cantis where the cable clamps on and then
tighten it back up at the suicide bars.

Kona Jakes come set up like that, amusingly enough.


My Kona Jake is a total pain in the ass as I have to remove my wheel to
drive under a tunnel before I start riding and the brakes are a struggle
every time plus they squeal so loud dispite being toed in. I am totally
frustrated and would never buy a cross bike again.

On Apr 19, 9:03 pm, Mike Latondresse wrote:
landotter wrote :



On Apr 19, 1:01 pm, Nate Nagel wrote:
Dan O wrote:
On Apr 18, 8:38 pm, Nate Nagel wrote:

Nate Nagel wrote:

landotter wrote:

On Apr 18, 6:00 pm, Nate Nagel wrote:

2) I've seen references to "toe in" when setting the pads but
the concept is still unclear to me exactly what it's referring
to - does this mean that I should set the pad so that the
leading edge or front (of the bike) surface of the pad should
contact the rim slightly before the rear?

yeah, because the force of braking will pull and twist the pad
and arm a bit. If you don't have toe in, you can get chatter and
squeal. A fat postal rubber band around the back part of the pad
is a good way to estimate the toe in when snugging things up.

Thanks for the tip, that makes a lot of sense. Sounds easier than
trying to snug it up with the brakes released.

nate

I just realized that i phrased my original question badly, such
that I am still confused even given your answer - which end of the
pad do I want to contact the rim first?

1) the leading edge - which would be the *rear* of the pad

or

2) the actual *front* of the pad?

or does it not really matter, just that the pad should not contact
the rim squarely?

Yes, your initial reference to "... leading edge..." had it
backwards, although your clarification "... front
(of the bike)..." made it clear that you knew which end to toe in
(having toes are at the front end of my foot helps me remember what
this means, too :-)

The fact that you noticed this yourself (the forward end of the
caliper on a top mounted rim brake would be the trailing edge - at
least when the bike is moving forward), and the discussion of your
experience with motor cars, indicates that you're gonna be all
right.

Summer's coming. Keep on riding.

Summer's *here* (DC area.) Farkin' hot, at least for this
damnyankee.

SWMBO is out and about right now, but as soon as she gets back I'm
going to try to talk her into a ride.

BTW the LBS is officially the shiznit, my kinda place. should have
gone there first. bill magically got knocked down to $60 by the time
I got there, then became $40 when he found out I didn't want my old
brakes, and when I asked about pedals he showed me a bucket full of
old Looks and SPDs from "customers who have upgraded." I'll
definitely be back there.

I don't know why the PO "upgraded" the brakes, these feel fine. None
of the Cannondale fork shudder I've read about, either. Just used
the stock Tektro pads, didn't bother to order the Kool Stops that I'd
thought I might need to be happy with it. Only problem - can't
easily disengage cantis to drop the wheels, I might have to loosen
the adjustment at the cantis where the cable clamps on and then
tighten it back up at the suicide bars.

Kona Jakes come set up like that, amusingly enough.

My Kona Jake is a total pain in the ass as I have to remove my wheel to
drive under a tunnel before I start riding and the brakes are a struggle
every time plus they squeal so loud dispite being toed in. I am totally
frustrated and would never buy a cross bike again.

Size up on the linkage cable, clean your rims, and resurface those
pads--and you should be good to go. Alternately, have the shop you
bought it at make it right. Not going to ever buy a Toyota again if ya
get a warped rotor on your car? Come 'on--it's a machine and needs to
be set up right is all.

On Apr 19, 9:21*pm, landotter wrote:

Size up on the linkage cable

How does sizing up the linkage (straddle) cable help eliminate squeal?
I've never heard that suggested before. It changes the mechanical
advantage for actuating the brake, but that's in a direction that's
orthogonal to direction in which the pads move when they squeal.

Changing the straddle cable is about the only thing I haven't tried on
a front Avid Shorty 7 that I cannot de-squeal. I switched from stock
to Kook Stop salmon pads, I've cleaned the rims, and I've tried a vast
number of ever-so-slightly different toe-in adjustments. No luck.
Cleaning the rims with a Brillo pad wedged between the brake pad and
rim helps, but not completely, and only for a very short time. The
rear brake is the same type and the rear rim is the same, but that one
was fine on the initial adjustment. Because of that, and because I've
been successfully adjusting other cantilever brakes since 1994, I
figure there must be some intrinsic mechanical resonance in the fork/
brakes/pads/rim combination. That, and the squeal is a more pure tone
compared to other squealing brakes I've heard. Anyway, I'd be
interested to hear how it might help.

Thanks,
Stephen Greenwood

On Apr 20, 12:22*am, Stephen Greenwood
wrote:
On Apr 19, 9:21*pm, landotter wrote:

Size up on the linkage cable

How does sizing up the linkage (straddle) cable help eliminate squeal?

It won't do squat. But it should slightly lower the mechanical
advantage and let ya at least remove the straddle cable w/o ****in'
with the barrel adjusters.

I haven't run cantis in a few years since the low-profile stuff became
popular--but they seem extraordinarily fussy to set up. If you get
super frustrated, just swap out the arms for some medium profile ones
by Shimano or Tektro for under $15. Much more forgiving to set up.

I just got turned onto these Tektros last night when surfing:

http://www.bikemannetwork.com/biking...RKCANTI/BR7460

They look like they'd be super forgiving to set up. I like the look,
wish I had a bike that was beggin' for them.

On Apr 20, 10:10*am, landotter wrote:
It won't do squat. But it should slightly lower the mechanical
advantage and let ya at least remove the straddle cable w/o ****in'
with the barrel adjusters.

Right.

I haven't run cantis in a few years since the low-profile stuff became
popular--but they seem extraordinarily fussy to set up.

In my sample size of one, they have been. Besides the shorter arms,
the pads are different. They're thinner, and the mounting post is
positioned asymmetrically, whereas the Ritchey/KoolStop pads I always
used had the mounting post centered. Either of these could have
something to do with it.

On Apr 20, 12:25*pm, Stephen Greenwood
wrote:
On Apr 20, 10:10*am, landotter wrote:

It won't do squat. But it should slightly lower the mechanical
advantage and let ya at least remove the straddle cable w/o ****in'
with the barrel adjusters.

Right.

I haven't run cantis in a few years since the low-profile stuff became
popular--but they seem extraordinarily fussy to set up.

In my sample size of one, they have been. Besides the shorter arms,
the pads are different. They're thinner, and the mounting post is
positioned asymmetrically, whereas the Ritchey/KoolStop pads I always
used had the mounting post centered. Either of these could have
something to do with it.

Go old school and throw some Eagle 2's on there with some major toe in
and you should be good. Mind--the Kool-Stops will be screamers if you
don't toe them enough.