I miss Jobst

Chalo wrote:
thirty-six wrote:
AMuzi wrote:
It's all steel, right?
Just like all whisky's the same, to the uknowing.

Some things are best when you make your own.


Mao tried that 'home forge' program.

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk...ap_forward.htm

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Chalo wrote:
David Scheidt wrote:
Chalo wrote:
:
an O wrote:
:
: Would you pay more to a seller who stocks only first-quality and will
: do the right thing? (I do.) How about just to support a merchant
: that you like. Buy local worth anything?
:
:Service is inherently local. Goods never are (for the purposes of
:this discussion).

Really? When I solve some clients problem two mintues after they tell
me they've got one (or, often, before they know they had a problem),
does it matter that weren't not in the same zip code, state, time
zone, country, or continent? It's not "service" if we aren't?

What about getting my computer fixed? A box appears at my door step,
I put the broken machine in it, it disappears, and a fixed one
reappears. That's not local.

I guess you send your bike to Trek to have the wheels trued?

For the purposes of this discussion (which I stipulated), I was
talking about bike service. While there are certainly places you can
ship your bike to have it serviced and then shipped back to you,
that's probably at least as uncommon and inappropriate as fresh cooked
food by mail. And I think we can agree that cooking fresh food is an
inherently local activity.

Exceptions only demonstrate that there is an opposite general
principle. Like, technically speaking, there are local bike
manufacturers all over the country. But it does not take much
evaluation of the bike market to see that as a general, almost
absolute rule, bicycles and their related products are not produced in
the local area where they are consumed.

Chalo

Exceptions abound.

We do a healthy amount of shipped service- wheels, frames etc.

There's no reason for any computer based service business to
be in one city or another; it just doesn't matter. See also
banking services in South Dakota or my niece the
statistician or any software author.

Regarding food, my neighbor across the street ships several
thousand pints of yummy Wisconsin ice cream on dry ice. Can
a guy in LA get Safeway brand vanilla for less? Sure. Choice
is good.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

David Scheidt wrote:

Chalo wrote:

:I used to pay a surcharge for American made goods, like shoes and
:housewares. *Now they are scarcely to be found at any price.

Nonsense. *Maybe not if you insist on shopping at China-mart, but both
those are made in the USA. *Certain classes of electronics aren't made
in the US, sure, but just about everything else is. *

I wear US-made overalls, mostly from Tennessee or Oklahoma where they
still believe people my size exist. (You tell me whether that makes
them First World products, because it isn't self-evidently so). Some
of my shirts are Carhartt and possibly made in the USA, but Carhartt
is no longer an exclusively American manufacturer. Same with Red Wing
and Carolina shoes. The Converse shoes I wore in days of yore are now
Chinese made, but my feet probably wouldn't tolerate them anyway. Not
so long ago, most commodity T-shirts were made in USA; now most of the
T-shirts I have are Pakistani or Indian made. At least they are truly
big and tall, because American industry is not doing so well in that
regard.

These look super virtuous and aren't even too expensive, but they are
unimaginatively sized so I have to look elsewhe
http://www.sosfromtexas.com/about.htm

For my kitchen, I can still get rugged plastic tumblers made in
Houston, just like the ones at the pizza joint. I have no real use
for plastic tumblers, and Houston isn't obviously better off for
having plastic product manufacturers there. I do buy American made
mason jars, though.

Durable stainless steel cookware made in USA? That's a nice thought.
Chicago Cutlery doesn't live up to its name anymore. (Camillus?
Gone.) Paul Revere warned us about the British, but he forgot to
mention that Revere Ware would be coming from Indonesia.

Bringing it back to bikes, who am I supposed to buy from if I want US-
made bike supplies? Phil Wood? Paul? Chris King? Those are
extravagances, not bike parts. Wald stuff is still US-made, and I use
some Wald parts here and there. But that junk only goes so far.

The median wage for a man in Texas is $12/hour. The median wage for a
woman in Texas is $10/hour. These people don't have to shop at
Hellmart, but they can't afford locally tailor-made clothing or Phil
parts for their custom recumbents.

Most of us don't have strong objections to any place of origin as long
as the goods are inexpensive and good enough to do their job. Soon
enough, goods that don't have to travel very far will be at a great
advantage (provided transportation subsidies don't rise to distort the
market). Until then, you can endeavor to build a material lifestyle
on rare exceptions to the rule, but it's a lot of work for no
detectable reward. I gave up on that a while ago.

American manufacturing didn't get offshored because it wasn't
feasible; it was taken away because corporate management decided that
promised at least slightly higher profits in the short term. Paying
more than the minimum to get what you need tends to play into the
hands of the same interests.

Chalo

On 4/12/2011 3:02 PM, David Scheidt wrote:
Duane wrote:
:On 4/12/2011 2:00 PM, David Scheidt wrote:
: wrote:
:
: :I used to pay a surcharge for American made goods, like shoes and
: :housewares. Now they are scarcely to be found at any price.
:
: Nonsense. Maybe not if you insist on shopping at China-mart, but both
: those are made in the USA. Certain classes of electronics aren't made
: in the US, sure, but just about everything else is.
:

:I don't shop at China-Mart but a lot of goods that were US made
:no longer are.

Oh, sure. But the claim that "goods of type X are no longer made in
the US" because a particular brand isn't made in the US anymore is
nonsense. I don't know if anyone makes cycling shoes in teh US (I
doubt it, it's a trivially small market), but all sorts of shoes are
made in the US, from running shoes to dress shoes to work boots. (I
saw an interesting thing on the amount americans spent on shoes. I
forget the details, but the jist of it was 'in 1970 americans spent 3%
of their income on shoes, and bought about 2 pairs a year. in 2000,
they spent 1%, and bought 15. )

http://www.ibisworld.com/industry/de...aspx?indid=369

2010 US Shoe Industry Revenue -- $1.74B, imports $20.662B, revenue
growth -4%

On 4/12/2011 3:02 PM, David Scheidt wrote:
Duane wrote:
:On 4/12/2011 2:00 PM, David Scheidt wrote:
: wrote:
:
: :I used to pay a surcharge for American made goods, like shoes and
: :housewares. Now they are scarcely to be found at any price.
:
: Nonsense. Maybe not if you insist on shopping at China-mart, but both
: those are made in the USA. Certain classes of electronics aren't made
: in the US, sure, but just about everything else is.
:

:I don't shop at China-Mart but a lot of goods that were US made
:no longer are.

Oh, sure. But the claim that "goods of type X are no longer made in
the US" because a particular brand isn't made in the US anymore is
nonsense. I don't know if anyone makes cycling shoes in teh US (I
doubt it, it's a trivially small market), but all sorts of shoes are
made in the US, from running shoes to dress shoes to work boots. (I
saw an interesting thing on the amount americans spent on shoes. I
forget the details, but the jist of it was 'in 1970 americans spent 3%
of their income on shoes, and bought about 2 pairs a year. in 2000,
they spent 1%, and bought 15. )

http://www.ibisworld.com/industry/de...aspx?indid=369

2010 US Shoe Industry Revenue -- $1.74B, imports $20.662B, revenue
growth -4%

AMuzi wrote:

Chalo wrote:

L.H. Thomson is an Ayn-Randroid bloviating butthole. *Should
Tennesseeans be proud to "buy local" from a social Darwinist
dicktard?

Mr Thomson, who I was proud to call a friend, is dead.

He was determined to make quality products in USA and was,
in my opinion, very successful at that.

What's next, carping that Enrico Fermi never worked the line
at a soup kitchen? Sheesh, in a world full of chiseling
parasites who make nothing useful, you chose Thomson as a
target?

I guess you feel better about social Darwinism (or perhaps
dicktardism) than I do. Making really good quality seatposts (and
they are really good) is not enough to offset that for me. Note my
earlier mention of Dov Charney, a political liberal and a somewhat
principled American manufacturer who also makes my dicktard list.

It should go without saying that the brilliant Signore Fermi's work
has not proven to be an asset to humanity on the whole. But I'll say
it to you anyway, since you might not have thought too hard about
that. How much better off would we all be if he'd worked in a kitchen
instead? (Side order of iodine-131 with that, and supersize it!)

Chalo

On 4/12/2011 11:40 AM, Doug Milliken wrote:

On Sat, 9 Apr 2011, kolldata wrote:

I heard JB bought a Moulton

On the off chance you are serious, I'd be happy to sell him the unique 17"
(32-369) sized tires used on the AM and Bridgestone Moulton models.[...]

The ISO 369-mm size has also been used by Lightning Cycle Dynamics
(smaller size P-38's back in the late 1980's and early 1990's and Seat
of the Pants (before AVD took over Windcheetah production).

--
Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.

On 4/12/2011 2:02 PM, David Scheidt wrote:
Duane wrote:
:On 4/12/2011 2:00 PM, David Scheidt wrote:
: wrote:
:
: :I used to pay a surcharge for American made goods, like shoes and
: :housewares. Now they are scarcely to be found at any price.
:
: Nonsense. Maybe not if you insist on shopping at China-mart, but both
: those are made in the USA. Certain classes of electronics aren't made
: in the US, sure, but just about everything else is.
:

:I don't shop at China-Mart but a lot of goods that were US made
:no longer are.

Oh, sure. But the claim that "goods of type X are no longer made in
the US" because a particular brand isn't made in the US anymore is
nonsense. I don't know if anyone makes cycling shoes in teh US (I
doubt it, it's a trivially small market), but all sorts of shoes are
made in the US, from running shoes to dress shoes to work boots. (I
saw an interesting thing on the amount americans spent on shoes. I
forget the details, but the jist of it was 'in 1970 americans spent 3%
of their income on shoes, and bought about 2 pairs a year. in 2000,
they spent 1%, and bought 15. )

Are SiDi shoes still made in Italy?

--
Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.

On 4/12/2011 3:07 PM, Çhâlõ Çólîñã wrote:
David Scheidt wrote:

wrote:

:I used to pay a surcharge for American made goods, like shoes and
:housewares. Now they are scarcely to be found at any price.

Nonsense. Maybe not if you insist on shopping at China-mart, but both
those are made in the USA. Certain classes of electronics aren't made
in the US, sure, but just about everything else is.

I wear US-made overalls, mostly from Tennessee or Oklahoma where they
still believe people my size exist. (You tell me whether that makes
them First World products, because it isn't self-evidently so). Some
of my shirts are Carhartt and possibly made in the USA, but Carhartt
is no longer an exclusively American manufacturer. Same with Red Wing
and Carolina shoes. The Converse shoes I wore in days of yore are now
Chinese made, but my feet probably wouldn't tolerate them anyway. Not
so long ago, most commodity T-shirts were made in USA; now most of the
T-shirts I have are Pakistani or Indian made. At least they are truly
big and tall, because American industry is not doing so well in that
regard.

These look super virtuous and aren't even too expensive, but they are
unimaginatively sized so I have to look elsewhe
http://www.sosfromtexas.com/about.htm

My best shoes are made in Italy (SiDi Dominators). My work boots, which
I just had re-soled after 8 years of use, are made in some place called
"USA".

For my kitchen, I can still get rugged plastic tumblers made in
Houston, just like the ones at the pizza joint. I have no real use
for plastic tumblers, and Houston isn't obviously better off for
having plastic product manufacturers there. I do buy American made
mason jars, though.

I bought a Pyrexâ„¢ measuring cup, and was shocked to see "Made in USA" on
the label.

Durable stainless steel cookware made in USA? That's a nice thought.
Chicago Cutlery doesn't live up to its name anymore. (Camillus?
Gone.) Paul Revere warned us about the British, but he forgot to
mention that Revere Ware would be coming from Indonesia.

You can buy French and Italian made cookware at reasonable prices. I
guess they still care about what they eat in those places.

Bringing it back to bikes, who am I supposed to buy from if I want US-
made bike supplies? Phil Wood? Paul? Chris King? Those are
extravagances, not bike parts. Wald stuff is still US-made, and I use
some Wald parts here and there. But that junk only goes so far.

The median wage for a man in Texas is $12/hour. The median wage for a
woman in Texas is $10/hour. These people don't have to shop at
Hellmart, but they can't afford locally tailor-made clothing or Phil
parts for their custom recumbents. ^^^^
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Hey! I resemble that remark!

http://www.flickr.com/photos/19704682@N08/1939615951/in/set-72157619269233805

Have about a dozen or so Phil Wood OEM custom hubs about the place.

Most of us don't have strong objections to any place of origin as long
as the goods are inexpensive and good enough to do their job. Soon
enough, goods that don't have to travel very far will be at a great
advantage (provided transportation subsidies don't rise to distort the
market). Until then, you can endeavor to build a material lifestyle
on rare exceptions to the rule, but it's a lot of work for no
detectable reward. I gave up on that a while ago.

My bed warmers are made in Wisconsin:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/19704682@N08/5203260302/in/set-72157625331406609.

American manufacturing didn't get offshored because it wasn't
feasible; it was taken away because corporate management decided that
promised at least slightly higher profits in the short term. Paying
more than the minimum to get what you need tends to play into the
hands of the same interests.

Chalo

I believe that part of off-shoring manufacturing was managements' desire
to break labor for the sake of breaking labor - domination of other
people is a fetish for the anti-social psychopaths that run many large
corporations.

--
Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.

On Apr 12, 4:07*pm, Chalo wrote:

The median wage for a man in Texas is $12/hour. *The median wage for a
woman in Texas is $10/hour. *These people don't have to shop at
Hellmart, but they can't afford locally tailor-made clothing or Phil
parts for their custom recumbents.

I sometimes wonder about what people can afford, especially relative
to what my family could afford when I was a kid.

When I was growing up in the '50s, my father had quite a good job by
most standards. Mom was a homemaker. They were products of the
depression and chose to have a large flock of kids. So we had a small
house, especially on a square-feet-per-person basis. He gardened and
tended six apple trees, and she preserved food. Most cars were bought
used. He built the garage, paved the driveway and finished the
basement rec room himself, with family help. Despite his love of
music, we had no stereo, and (of course) just one TV. Household toys
were not extravagant, the most prominent being a ping-pong table and a
home-built pool table, plus lots of board games to play with the
kids. By today's standards, we kids were deprived.

These days, a person in his professional position would absolutely own
a home 2.5 times as large, even though there would be just one or two
kids. The cars might be Lexi or BMWs, there would be Wii, three
computers, four cell phones, a TV in each room with the main wide-
screen one hooked into a complete home theater system. But the music
part would be little used because everyone would have an iPod. There
would be more Nintendos than family board games. Kids would be given
cars at age 16. And it goes without saying, Mom would work full time,
because "things are so expensive these days."

In brief, it seems to me most middle class families are into buying
stuff, far more than they used to be. We're enslaved by our
possessions - or by the people who convince us to buy them. I think,
for most people, more modest living could yield a lot more real,
personal prosperity.

_Your Money Or Your Life_ was an interesting book somewhat related to
this subject.

- Frank Krygowski