NY bike path mayhem

On Tue, 7 Nov 2017 01:18:15 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 11/6/2017 9:44 PM, John B. wrote:

In short, your thesis that guns cause crime just isn't correct.

Where did I say that was my thesis?

The
old adage that guns don't kill people, people kill people, apparently
is correct.

In the U.S., people murder people mostly by using guns. In most other
advanced countries, the murder rates are far lower, and the gun murder
rates lower yet. You can't rationally pretend that the availability of
guns is not a significant factor.


If there is a relationship between numbers of guns and gun deaths then
why doesn't this relationship manifest itself in the U.S. As I have
pointed out innumerable times states with very high gun ownership
frequently have very low firearm homicide rates while areas with
relatively low gun ownership frequently have very high firearm
homicide rates.

So, based on actual numbers, no there doesn't appear to be a
relationship between gun ownership and firearm homicide rates.

As for your description "Advanced Country" are you serious?

After all, the U.S. seems to have a larger criminal population then
any other country in the world. Or at least the number of people
incarcerated in their prisons is higher then every other country in
the world... except for the Seychelles.

Many criminals = advanced?


As for sheer numbers, you are getting all excited about, what was it?
26 gun deaths in Texas, while in Washington, D.C. they kill six times
that number annually and no one says a word.

Bull****.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 11/6/2017 11:47 PM, wrote:
On Monday, November 6, 2017 at 7:31:34 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 11/6/2017 8:23 AM, wrote:
On Monday, November 6, 2017 at 7:16:24 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 11/5/2017 8:29 PM, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
Per AMuzi:
WTF? I suspect you 'misremembered' that.

Tamerlan Trarnayev died of blunt trauma

I was thinking of his brother hiding in the boat and the 20 seconds of
continuous small arms fire ("Contagious Fire"??) that the geniuses
surrounding poured into the boat.

It was nothing short of a miracle that he survived - and at a time when
they did not know:

- If others were involved

- If more bombs had been placed.

If ever there was an need to keep somebody alive to be debriefed in the
interest of saving civilian lives, that was it.

Didn't the 911 investigative panel return a finding that communications
between agencies/forces was a major failing? .... Didn't seem to me
like there was much communication going on the more like every
amateur/volunteer cop/Barney Fife Wannabe for miles around descending on
the place looking for somebody to shoot.

And did anybody else notice the guy in the full beard and plain clothes
carrying something that looked like an AR-15 running around? I'm
surprised he lived through that debacle.

I watched most of it on live TV and came away thinking I had been
watching The Keystone Cops in action.

Heaven forbid something really big happens.


While you or I were thinking about, for example, a woman
with no legs who watched her child turned to red spray, the
officers were likely thinking equally about Sean Colier:

"The original question is they walked up to that car and
appeared they shot the officer in the head unprovoked, that
it was an assassination. But why? How did that fit into
their plan? The operating theory now in the investigation is
they were short one gun. The older brother had a gun. They
wanted to get a gun for the younger brother and the fastest
and most efficient way they could think of doing it was a
surprise attack on a cop, to take his weapon and go. Officer
Collier had a locking holster, it’s like a three-way lock.
If you don’t know how to remove the gun, you’re not going to
get it out. There was apparently an attempt to yank it and
they couldn’t get it and left. “

I'm not excusing it but it's understandable.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

http://abcnews.go.com/US/texas-churc...ry?id=50958603



from your link:
"As he exited the church, a local resident grabbed his
rifle and engaged that suspect, Martin said. "The suspect
dropped his rifle -- which was a Rueger AR assault-type
rifle -- and fled from the church. Our local citizen pursued
the suspect at that time."

The suspect, who fled in a car, crashed and was later found
dead in his vehicle in Guadalupe County, according to
authorities. It's unclear whether he died from a
self-inflicted gunshot wound or whether he was shot by
another person, officials said.

Interrupted by an armed citizen.
Ruger is spelled wrong.
An AR is a semi - not a Sturmgewehr.

Idiot was prohibited from possessing a firearm, in addition
to several and various other illegal acts.



gunman bought his prohibited gun in Texas n texas blew the review ? amazing.


Nope, it was the Federal Gummit in spring of 2016 who
cleared his background check.


--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Monday, November 6, 2017 at 10:47:20 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 7 Nov 2017 01:14:09 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 11/7/2017 12:34 AM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 7 Nov 2017 01:44:07 +0000 (UTC), Ralph Barone
wrote:

John B. wrote:
On Mon, 6 Nov 2017 10:36:23 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 11/6/2017 9:31 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 11/6/2017 8:23 AM, wrote:

http://abcnews.go.com/US/texas-churc...ry?id=50958603


from your link:
Â*"As he exited the church, a local resident grabbed his rifle and
engaged that suspect, Martin said. "The suspect dropped his rifle --
which was a Rueger AR assault-type rifle -- and fled from the church.
Our local citizen pursued the suspect at that time."

The suspect, who fled in a car, crashed and was later found dead in his
vehicle in Guadalupe County, according to authorities. It's unclear
whether he died from a self-inflicted gunshot wound or whether he was
shot by another person, officials said.

Interrupted by an armed citizen.
Ruger is spelled wrong.
An AR is a semi - not a Sturmgewehr.

Idiot was prohibited from possessing a firearm, in addition to several
and various other illegal acts.

You're focusing on minutae. Step back and look at the problem. And don't
pretend that mass shootings in America are not a problem.

How long was Kelley in the church? How many rounds did he fire? Why does
anyone really need to fire more than about ten rounds in one minute,
except to commit a mass killing?

Are you a "good guy with a gun" fan? If Kelley had been restricted to
something like one shot every five seconds, some "good guy with a gun"
might have had a chance to stop him. Of course, that requires someone to
carry a self-defense weapon into a country church on a Sunday morning.
That situation alone is despicable.

Why should a private citizen be allowed to buy a rifle with many
features designed ONLY for killing human beings and doing it rapidly?
Why should such guns be for sale on the open market?

Will gun nuts continue to pretend the Founders' "well regulated militia"
includes a mass murderer of churchgoers?

Given that Timothy McVeigh killed some 168 people and injured over 600
and is credited with causing the most significant act of domestic
terrorism in United States history, without using a firearm, why
aren't you descrying the unrestricted sale of fertilizer, i.e.,
ammonium nitrate ?

The World Trade Center catastrophe which killed 2,996 people, injured
over 6,000 others, and caused at least $10 billion in infrastructure
and property damage, was carried out without using a firearm. Why
aren't you descrying the unrestricted sale of Leatherman knives?

In short, your prejudices are showing.
--
Cheers,

John B.



I suppose you could compare fertilizer deaths over the last 10 years to gun
deaths over the last 10 years...

Why? I didn't. But neither did I compare auto deaths over the past 10
years, 350,000 of them.

Strange that those who are so vehement about gun deaths seem to be so
complacent about highway deaths. After all there is a great outcry
about the 26 people shot in Texas and not a peep about the
approximately 90 people that died in car crashes the same day.

What evidence do you have that those concerned about gun deaths are
complacent about highway deaths? Are you pretending that if anyone
complains about a murder, there's some rule stating that they must
simultaneously complain about every other cause of death?

As I said above. Y'all seem so complacent. 26 people die of gun shot
wounds and every is hopping up and down, waving their arms in the air
and moaning and groaning. But I don't hear a peep about the
approximately 90 people that died in traffic "accidents" the same day.

No evidence other then what I see but it does seem apparent that it
isn't dead people that are of concern, it is how they died. Gunshot
wounds and Horror! Horror! But being picked up in pieces after hitting
the bridge abutment at 100 mph... Ho Hum, just another day.

That's blatant nonsense, and a clumsy effort at distraction. Try it with
a cop sometime, John - as in "Well, I might have been going 40 kph over
the speed limit, but there are people driving drunk." See how far it
gets you.

I see, approximately 90 people killed on the roads is just a
distraction... An interesting attitude.

There is no equivalency between guns and cars -- one is designed to kill and the other is designed to transport passengers and cargo. A car can be used as a weapon, but that is not its purpose. Billions of dollars have been spent to make cars more safe -- not more lethal. There is a high social value to cars -- and a cost in lives, but we as a society differentiate between accidental deaths and homicide and can more easily understand widely distributed accidental car-related deaths than a mass murder in a church with a high capacity weapon. We are dealing with car deaths through education, licensing, road design, car design, vehicle codes, local ordinances, dram shop acts, registration, insurance requirements, etc., etc. If we had the same regulation of guns, he Second Amendment folks would start screaming "out of my cold dead hands!"


-- Jay Beattie.

I began sensory overloading after LA began milking Paddock.

On 11/7/2017 8:37 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, November 6, 2017 at 10:47:20 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 7 Nov 2017 01:14:09 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 11/7/2017 12:34 AM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 7 Nov 2017 01:44:07 +0000 (UTC), Ralph Barone
wrote:

John B. wrote:
On Mon, 6 Nov 2017 10:36:23 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 11/6/2017 9:31 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 11/6/2017 8:23 AM, wrote:

http://abcnews.go.com/US/texas-churc...ry?id=50958603


from your link:
 "As he exited the church, a local resident grabbed his rifle and
engaged that suspect, Martin said. "The suspect dropped his rifle --
which was a Rueger AR assault-type rifle -- and fled from the church.
Our local citizen pursued the suspect at that time."

The suspect, who fled in a car, crashed and was later found dead in his
vehicle in Guadalupe County, according to authorities. It's unclear
whether he died from a self-inflicted gunshot wound or whether he was
shot by another person, officials said.

Interrupted by an armed citizen.
Ruger is spelled wrong.
An AR is a semi - not a Sturmgewehr.

Idiot was prohibited from possessing a firearm, in addition to several
and various other illegal acts.

You're focusing on minutae. Step back and look at the problem. And don't
pretend that mass shootings in America are not a problem.

How long was Kelley in the church? How many rounds did he fire? Why does
anyone really need to fire more than about ten rounds in one minute,
except to commit a mass killing?

Are you a "good guy with a gun" fan? If Kelley had been restricted to
something like one shot every five seconds, some "good guy with a gun"
might have had a chance to stop him. Of course, that requires someone to
carry a self-defense weapon into a country church on a Sunday morning.
That situation alone is despicable.

Why should a private citizen be allowed to buy a rifle with many
features designed ONLY for killing human beings and doing it rapidly?
Why should such guns be for sale on the open market?

Will gun nuts continue to pretend the Founders' "well regulated militia"
includes a mass murderer of churchgoers?

Given that Timothy McVeigh killed some 168 people and injured over 600
and is credited with causing the most significant act of domestic
terrorism in United States history, without using a firearm, why
aren't you descrying the unrestricted sale of fertilizer, i.e.,
ammonium nitrate ?

The World Trade Center catastrophe which killed 2,996 people, injured
over 6,000 others, and caused at least $10 billion in infrastructure
and property damage, was carried out without using a firearm. Why
aren't you descrying the unrestricted sale of Leatherman knives?

In short, your prejudices are showing.
--
Cheers,

John B.



I suppose you could compare fertilizer deaths over the last 10 years to gun
deaths over the last 10 years...

Why? I didn't. But neither did I compare auto deaths over the past 10
years, 350,000 of them.

Strange that those who are so vehement about gun deaths seem to be so
complacent about highway deaths. After all there is a great outcry
about the 26 people shot in Texas and not a peep about the
approximately 90 people that died in car crashes the same day.

What evidence do you have that those concerned about gun deaths are
complacent about highway deaths? Are you pretending that if anyone
complains about a murder, there's some rule stating that they must
simultaneously complain about every other cause of death?

As I said above. Y'all seem so complacent. 26 people die of gun shot
wounds and every is hopping up and down, waving their arms in the air
and moaning and groaning. But I don't hear a peep about the
approximately 90 people that died in traffic "accidents" the same day.

No evidence other then what I see but it does seem apparent that it
isn't dead people that are of concern, it is how they died. Gunshot
wounds and Horror! Horror! But being picked up in pieces after hitting
the bridge abutment at 100 mph... Ho Hum, just another day.

That's blatant nonsense, and a clumsy effort at distraction. Try it with
a cop sometime, John - as in "Well, I might have been going 40 kph over
the speed limit, but there are people driving drunk." See how far it
gets you.

I see, approximately 90 people killed on the roads is just a
distraction... An interesting attitude.

There is no equivalency between guns and cars -- one is designed to kill and the other is designed to transport passengers and cargo. A car can be used as a weapon, but that is not its purpose. Billions of dollars have been spent to make cars more safe -- not more lethal. There is a high social value to cars -- and a cost in lives, but we as a society differentiate between accidental deaths and homicide and can more easily understand widely distributed accidental car-related deaths than a mass murder in a church with a high capacity weapon. We are dealing with car deaths through education, licensing, road design, car design, vehicle codes, local ordinances, dram shop acts, registration, insurance requirements, etc., etc. If we had the same regulation of guns, he Second Amendment folks would start screaming "out of my cold dead hands!"


you're late.
I've been singing that song for many years already.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 11/7/2017 1:47 AM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 7 Nov 2017 01:14:09 -0500, Frank Krygowski wrote:


What evidence do you have that those concerned about gun deaths are
complacent about highway deaths? Are you pretending that if anyone
complains about a murder, there's some rule stating that they must
simultaneously complain about every other cause of death?

As I said above. Y'all seem so complacent. 26 people die of gun shot
wounds and every is hopping up and down, waving their arms in the air
and moaning and groaning. But I don't hear a peep about the
approximately 90 people that died in traffic "accidents" the same day.

No evidence other then what I see but it does seem apparent that it
isn't dead people that are of concern, it is how they died.

Well, John, by your own "logic," I see that you don't give a whit about
over one million Americans dying each year because of heart disease and
cancer.

You must be a cancer lover! Why do you love cancer, John?

(OK, sarcasm off now.)

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 11/7/2017 2:01 AM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 7 Nov 2017 01:18:15 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 11/6/2017 9:44 PM, John B. wrote:

In short, your thesis that guns cause crime just isn't correct.

Where did I say that was my thesis?

The
old adage that guns don't kill people, people kill people, apparently
is correct.

In the U.S., people murder people mostly by using guns. In most other
advanced countries, the murder rates are far lower, and the gun murder
rates lower yet. You can't rationally pretend that the availability of
guns is not a significant factor.


If there is a relationship between numbers of guns and gun deaths then
why doesn't this relationship manifest itself in the U.S. As I have
pointed out innumerable times states with very high gun ownership
frequently have very low firearm homicide rates while areas with
relatively low gun ownership frequently have very high firearm
homicide rates.

So, based on actual numbers, no there doesn't appear to be a
relationship between gun ownership and firearm homicide rates.

And as I've pointed out many times, try instead to investigate the
correlation between guns designed for killing people and homicide rates.
IOW, exclude long rifles and shotguns designed and intended for killing
game. Look instead at guns designed to fire more than about ten shots in
a minute, and look at guns designed to be easily concealed.

Sparsely populated states with long-established hunting cultures (e.g.
Montana and Vermont) have large numbers of hunting guns, and low gun
homicide rates. And I've made it clear many times that I'm pro-hunting
and not at all against guns designed for hunting.

Nobody hunts with AR-style rifles, unless it's a gun nut trying to show
it's not completely impossible. And nobody needs to hunt with a rapid
fire handgun.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 11/7/2017 10:01 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/7/2017 2:01 AM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 7 Nov 2017 01:18:15 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 11/6/2017 9:44 PM, John B. wrote:

In short, your thesis that guns cause crime just isn't
correct.

Where did I say that was my thesis?

The
old adage that guns don't kill people, people kill
people, apparently
is correct.

In the U.S., people murder people mostly by using guns.
In most other
advanced countries, the murder rates are far lower, and
the gun murder
rates lower yet. You can't rationally pretend that the
availability of
guns is not a significant factor.


If there is a relationship between numbers of guns and gun
deaths then
why doesn't this relationship manifest itself in the U.S.
As I have
pointed out innumerable times states with very high gun
ownership
frequently have very low firearm homicide rates while
areas with
relatively low gun ownership frequently have very high
firearm
homicide rates.

So, based on actual numbers, no there doesn't appear to be a
relationship between gun ownership and firearm homicide
rates.

And as I've pointed out many times, try instead to
investigate the correlation between guns designed for
killing people and homicide rates. IOW, exclude long rifles
and shotguns designed and intended for killing game. Look
instead at guns designed to fire more than about ten shots
in a minute, and look at guns designed to be easily concealed.

Sparsely populated states with long-established hunting
cultures (e.g. Montana and Vermont) have large numbers of
hunting guns, and low gun homicide rates. And I've made it
clear many times that I'm pro-hunting and not at all against
guns designed for hunting.

Nobody hunts with AR-style rifles, unless it's a gun nut
trying to show it's not completely impossible. And nobody
needs to hunt with a rapid fire handgun.


There are 15,238 actual machine guns registered in your
State, Ohio.
http://chartsbin.com/view/1922

As with the barefoot plumber this week, most guys are normal
(by definition) and no trouble at all. When's the last time
you heard a Browning M2 in your neighborhood?

Hunting is a red herring and absolutely unrelated to the 2d
Amendment, as a review of the legislative history clearly
shows. The history of unarmed populations /in extremis/ is
also clear.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Monday, November 6, 2017 at 5:44:12 PM UTC-8, Ralph Barone wrote:
John B. wrote:
On Mon, 6 Nov 2017 10:36:23 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 11/6/2017 9:31 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 11/6/2017 8:23 AM, wrote:

http://abcnews.go.com/US/texas-churc...ry?id=50958603


from your link:
Â*"As he exited the church, a local resident grabbed his rifle and
engaged that suspect, Martin said. "The suspect dropped his rifle --
which was a Rueger AR assault-type rifle -- and fled from the church.
Our local citizen pursued the suspect at that time."

The suspect, who fled in a car, crashed and was later found dead in his
vehicle in Guadalupe County, according to authorities. It's unclear
whether he died from a self-inflicted gunshot wound or whether he was
shot by another person, officials said.

Interrupted by an armed citizen.
Ruger is spelled wrong.
An AR is a semi - not a Sturmgewehr.

Idiot was prohibited from possessing a firearm, in addition to several
and various other illegal acts.

You're focusing on minutae. Step back and look at the problem. And don't
pretend that mass shootings in America are not a problem.

How long was Kelley in the church? How many rounds did he fire? Why does
anyone really need to fire more than about ten rounds in one minute,
except to commit a mass killing?

Are you a "good guy with a gun" fan? If Kelley had been restricted to
something like one shot every five seconds, some "good guy with a gun"
might have had a chance to stop him. Of course, that requires someone to
carry a self-defense weapon into a country church on a Sunday morning.
That situation alone is despicable.

Why should a private citizen be allowed to buy a rifle with many
features designed ONLY for killing human beings and doing it rapidly?
Why should such guns be for sale on the open market?

Will gun nuts continue to pretend the Founders' "well regulated militia"
includes a mass murderer of churchgoers?

Given that Timothy McVeigh killed some 168 people and injured over 600
and is credited with causing the most significant act of domestic
terrorism in United States history, without using a firearm, why
aren't you descrying the unrestricted sale of fertilizer, i.e.,
ammonium nitrate ?

The World Trade Center catastrophe which killed 2,996 people, injured
over 6,000 others, and caused at least $10 billion in infrastructure
and property damage, was carried out without using a firearm. Why
aren't you descrying the unrestricted sale of Leatherman knives?

In short, your prejudices are showing.
--
Cheers,

John B.



I suppose you could compare fertilizer deaths over the last 10 years to gun
deaths over the last 10 years...

It killed this little girl in this car!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROrpKx3aIjA

On 11/7/2017 11:57 AM, Doug Landau wrote:
On Monday, November 6, 2017 at 5:44:12 PM UTC-8, Ralph Barone wrote:
John B. wrote:
On Mon, 6 Nov 2017 10:36:23 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 11/6/2017 9:31 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 11/6/2017 8:23 AM, wrote:

http://abcnews.go.com/US/texas-churc...ry?id=50958603


from your link:
 "As he exited the church, a local resident grabbed his rifle and
engaged that suspect, Martin said. "The suspect dropped his rifle --
which was a Rueger AR assault-type rifle -- and fled from the church.
Our local citizen pursued the suspect at that time."

The suspect, who fled in a car, crashed and was later found dead in his
vehicle in Guadalupe County, according to authorities. It's unclear
whether he died from a self-inflicted gunshot wound or whether he was
shot by another person, officials said.

Interrupted by an armed citizen.
Ruger is spelled wrong.
An AR is a semi - not a Sturmgewehr.

Idiot was prohibited from possessing a firearm, in addition to several
and various other illegal acts.

You're focusing on minutae. Step back and look at the problem. And don't
pretend that mass shootings in America are not a problem.

How long was Kelley in the church? How many rounds did he fire? Why does
anyone really need to fire more than about ten rounds in one minute,
except to commit a mass killing?

Are you a "good guy with a gun" fan? If Kelley had been restricted to
something like one shot every five seconds, some "good guy with a gun"
might have had a chance to stop him. Of course, that requires someone to
carry a self-defense weapon into a country church on a Sunday morning.
That situation alone is despicable.

Why should a private citizen be allowed to buy a rifle with many
features designed ONLY for killing human beings and doing it rapidly?
Why should such guns be for sale on the open market?

Will gun nuts continue to pretend the Founders' "well regulated militia"
includes a mass murderer of churchgoers?

Given that Timothy McVeigh killed some 168 people and injured over 600
and is credited with causing the most significant act of domestic
terrorism in United States history, without using a firearm, why
aren't you descrying the unrestricted sale of fertilizer, i.e.,
ammonium nitrate ?

The World Trade Center catastrophe which killed 2,996 people, injured
over 6,000 others, and caused at least $10 billion in infrastructure
and property damage, was carried out without using a firearm. Why
aren't you descrying the unrestricted sale of Leatherman knives?

In short, your prejudices are showing.
--
Cheers,

John B.



I suppose you could compare fertilizer deaths over the last 10 years to gun
deaths over the last 10 years...

It killed this little girl in this car!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROrpKx3aIjA


That seemed at first an accident, later ruled arson.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971