Unintended consequences

On Tuesday, January 5, 2021 at 3:03:22 p.m. UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/5/2021 1:00 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski writes:

On 1/5/2021 11:54 AM, jbeattie wrote:

I've never had a heated garage. I don't think that is even a thing
here in the U.S. except maybe in a condo building or some
super-modern construction.

Heated garages are quite common here, where winter actually gets
cold. Not that I have one, mind you. Our place predates that fashion.

Newer construction here often has the garage integrated into the house,
in which case it's simpler to heat it. Heavy, insulated garage doors
are then needed, so I guess heated garages are in part enabled by
electric door openers.
The weight of a garage door shouldn't matter if its lifting springs are
properly chosen and adjusted. Those springs should balance the weight of
the door no matter how heavy it is.

I installed our electric opener in our old garage, and helped another
family member install another. The instructions made it very clear that
the opener was not designed to heft the weight of the door on its own,
and that proper spring balance was necessary.
Older garages tend to be detached, and unheated, like mine.
And like mine.

BTW, one aesthetic aspect of modern McMansions that I dislike is the
huge front-facing garage door. It's even worse when the garage door sits
several feet forward of the front door and porch. It's like the house is
actually designed for the automobile, and humans are grudgingly allowed
to live there.


--
- Frank Krygowski

Like so many developments or roads are designed primarily for the almighty automobile with pedestrians or bicyclists hardly given a thought.

Cheers

On Tuesday, January 5, 2021 at 11:49:43 AM UTC-6, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, January 5, 2021 at 9:13:14 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/5/2021 11:54 AM, jbeattie wrote:

I've never had a heated garage. I don't think that is even a thing here in the U.S. except maybe in a condo building or some super-modern construction.
Heated garages are quite common here, where winter actually gets cold.
Not that I have one, mind you. Our place predates that fashion.
Live and learn. I remember another Mid-West leaning experience when I was looking around this weird used ambulance lot in Burlingame, Ca. back in the '70s with a friend who owned a small ambulance company and needed a back-up rig. I saw some beater 60s Pontiac Bonneville (an abomination in its own right) from an ambulance company in the Mid-West with a cord hanging out of the front grille. I had never heard of engine heaters.

-- Jay Beattie.

Speaking of engine heaters, I was walking to the store to get milk this afternoon. And walked by a F250 with Power Stroke diesel plugged into a cord. I was shocked. It was 40 degrees. I'm sure diesels don't have any problem starting when its that warm. 20s and lower, yes diesels need to be plugged in. But 40, waste.

On Tuesday, January 5, 2021 at 11:13:14 AM UTC-6, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/5/2021 11:54 AM, jbeattie wrote:

I've never had a heated garage. I don't think that is even a thing here in the U.S. except maybe in a condo building or some super-modern construction.
Heated garages are quite common here, where winter actually gets cold.
Not that I have one, mind you. Our place predates that fashion.

--
- Frank Krygowski

I'm sure people are confusing attached garages with heated garages. Attached garages are very common with any house built since the 1950s or newer. But just because its attached to the living portion of the house, does not mean it is heated. It is not heated with heat registers and definitely not with return air vents. Return air vents would bring car exhaust into the living portion of the house. Inside your house where you live, you have heat registers to send out the heated air and return registers to bring the cooler air back to the heater to be reheated again. And very modern heaters may have an air vent to bring in fresh air from outside too. But usually new air just comes from leaking windows and doors or simply going in and out of the house. That supplies enough new fresh air.

Attached garages get their heat from simply being attached to the heated house. Attached garages almost always never have a dedicated heat register going into the garage itself. The garage walls that are attached to the heated house are insulated. The ceiling and exterior walls are not insulated. Now it is possible to have a heated garage. Some people who use their garage as a shop instead of for parking cars may put minimal heat into the garage. Usually with a space heater of some kind. Not a heater tied directly to the house heater. A separate heater that can be set to 45 degrees for instance for non occupied hours and raised to 55 degrees for occupied times. And garages that are heated and used as shops would be well insulated first so they can keep some of the heat inside and not have to reheat from freezing every time. Heated garage shops would have all walls insulated and the concrete floor would be covered with wood and insulation and the ceiling would be insulated. A car garage needs extensive conversion to make it a heated shop garage.

On Tue, 5 Jan 2021 15:03:23 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Tuesday, January 5, 2021 at 3:03:22 p.m. UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/5/2021 1:00 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski writes:

On 1/5/2021 11:54 AM, jbeattie wrote:

I've never had a heated garage. I don't think that is even a thing
here in the U.S. except maybe in a condo building or some
super-modern construction.

Heated garages are quite common here, where winter actually gets
cold. Not that I have one, mind you. Our place predates that fashion.

Newer construction here often has the garage integrated into the house,
in which case it's simpler to heat it. Heavy, insulated garage doors
are then needed, so I guess heated garages are in part enabled by
electric door openers.
The weight of a garage door shouldn't matter if its lifting springs are
properly chosen and adjusted. Those springs should balance the weight of
the door no matter how heavy it is.

I installed our electric opener in our old garage, and helped another
family member install another. The instructions made it very clear that
the opener was not designed to heft the weight of the door on its own,
and that proper spring balance was necessary.
Older garages tend to be detached, and unheated, like mine.
And like mine.

BTW, one aesthetic aspect of modern McMansions that I dislike is the
huge front-facing garage door. It's even worse when the garage door sits
several feet forward of the front door and porch. It's like the house is
actually designed for the automobile, and humans are grudgingly allowed
to live there.


--
- Frank Krygowski

Like so many developments or roads are designed primarily for the almighty automobile with pedestrians or bicyclists hardly given a thought.

Cheers

Well, of course. I can well remember, back in the day, when one bought
the new Cadillac one parked it in front of the house until it was
certain that all the neighbors had seen it :-)

How else would anyone understand how important you really were.

AS an aside, have you ever noticed how often people posting her
mention the make and model of their bike when posting?
"Yes Sir! There I was on my 1927 "Neverfail" with the green paint and
the lovely decals, and I was ridding to the store for a loaf of
bread..."
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 1/5/2021 6:26 PM, wrote:

On Tuesday, January 5, 2021 at 11:13:14 AM UTC-6, Frank Krygowski wrote:

On 1/5/2021 11:54 AM, jbeattie wrote:


I've never had a heated garage. I don't think that is even a thing here in the U.S. except maybe in a condo building or some super-modern construction.

Heated garages are quite common here, where winter actually gets cold.
Not that I have one, mind you. Our place predates that fashion.

--
- Frank Krygowski


I'm sure people are confusing attached garages with heated garages. Attached garages are very common with any house built since the 1950s or newer. But just because its attached to the living portion of the house, does not mean it is heated. It is not heated with heat registers and definitely not with return air vents. Return air vents would bring car exhaust into the living portion of the house. Inside your house where you live, you have heat registers to send out the heated air and return registers to bring the cooler air back to the heater to be reheated again. And very modern heaters may have an air vent to bring in fresh air from outside too. But usually new air just comes from leaking windows and doors or simply going in and out of the house. That supplies enough new fresh air.

Attached garages get their heat from simply being attached to the heated house. Attached garages almost always never have a dedicated heat register going into the garage itself. The garage walls that are attached to the heated house are insulated. The ceiling and exterior walls are not insulated. Now it is possible to have a heated garage. Some people who use their garage as a shop instead of for parking cars may put minimal heat into the garage. Usually with a space heater of some kind. Not a heater tied directly to the house heater. A separate heater that can be set to 45 degrees for instance for non occupied hours and raised to 55 degrees for occupied times. And garages that are heated and used as shops would be well insulated first so they can keep some of the heat inside and not have to reheat from freezing every time. Heated garage shops would have all walls insulated and the concrete floor would be covered with wood and insulation and the ceiling would be insulated. A car garage needs extensive conversion to make it a heated shop garage.


I understand your points, but: There are two houses I'm very familiar
with whose attached garages qualify as heated, in my book. One is
intentionally heated, the other unintentionally.

I'll begin with the second. The lot slopes downhill toward the back, and
the basement level attached garage is entered from the back of the
house. The remainder of the basement is separated by a concrete block
wall that I'm sure is uninsulated. The garage door was replaced about
four years ago and has a foam core and aluminum skin, so some small
R-value. But the garage is mostly earth sheltered, and I'm sure that helps.

So heat input is only unintentional, but it's real. As proof, before the
garage door was replaced, it was not closing entirely. During a cold
snap, I got a phone call asking for instructions on thawing water pipes.
The main water line entry and meter are in a cubby under the porch. With
the heat loss to outside through the broken door, the pipe froze. With
the new door, it's never frozen again. And while it's a bit chilly in
there in winter, it's always much warmer than outside. (I've done quite
a bit of fix-it work in that garage.)

The other attached heated garage belongs to another good friend, who has
been in his current house about ten years. (He's got a partially
completed kit Cobra in there, a long term project.) There's a gas heater
hanging from the ceiling corner which he fires up when needed. But
there, too, I've done a good bit of work in the garage without that
heater and it's always more pleasant than outside temperatures.

BTW that second guy used to live in a house inside the city, with a
detached garage. He insulated the heck out of that garage and installed
an oddball heat pump system. That was even more comfortable for auto
repair in winter. His current garage is much newer and not nearly as
airtight, but still nice for winter work.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 1/5/2021 5:53 PM, News 2021 wrote:
On Tue, 05 Jan 2021 10:56:30 -0800, Lou Holtman scribed:

Op dinsdag 5 januari 2021 om 19:00:46 UTC+1 schreef Radey Shouman:
Frank Krygowski writes:

On 1/5/2021 11:54 AM, jbeattie wrote:

I've never had a heated garage. I don't think that is even a thing
here in the U.S. except maybe in a condo building or some
super-modern construction.

Heated garages are quite common here, where winter actually gets
cold. Not that I have one, mind you. Our place predates that fashion.
Newer construction here often has the garage integrated into the house,
in which case it's simpler to heat it. Heavy, insulated garage doors
are then needed, so I guess heated garages are in part enabled by
electric door openers. Older garages tend to be detached, and unheated,
like mine.

I have a garage integrated into the house. When I bought the house it
had a cheap steel garage door which acted as a heater in the summer and
a AC in the winter. The first home improvement was buying and installing
a insulated garage door operated with an electric opener. Not cheap but
a very good investment. The garage is now a part of the house,
comfortable warm in the winter and and not bloody hot in the summer.
Very easy and comfortable to work in and a good storage for my bikes.
The car has to stay outside because a downside of a garage integrated
into the house and close to the living room is the smell of a hot engine
when you put the car in the garage. No problem for me.

Lou

I agree. Using garages for ICE stuff is unhealthy and a complete waste of
valuable floor and storage space. After the bicycle work space, the
electronic workspace,the computer building repairs and storage, the
colour coded dodo-dads shelving and various stacked crates of stuff, plus
the steam locomotive, there is still space for the permanent installation
of the kids disco/dance party lights. Why waste all that space on storing
a car, which will last 10-20 years in the elements before rust shows up.

Well, snow, for one thing. And ice. I hate scraping windshields.

Come to think of it, in summer I'm not fond of climbing into a car whose
interior is about 120 Fahrenheit.


--
- Frank Krygowski

On 1/5/2021 5:58 PM, wrote:
On Monday, January 4, 2021 at 4:53:19 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 4 Jan 2021 06:33:21 -0800 (PST), Mark Cleary
wrote:

On Monday, January 4, 2021 at 8:00:19 AM UTC-6, AMuzi wrote:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/carlton...de-in-england/
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
Never road a Brooks and hate the look but are they really better?
Deacon Mark
Well, they are relatively expensive for a bicycle saddle, they require
"breaking in" and are extremely uncomfortable for the first, perhaps,
1,000 miles, they have to be protected from getting wet else they
stretch and being leather need frequent applications of leather
dressing which Brooks will sell you for only 17 dollars for 30 ml.


Relatively expensive? Well, a Google search says the Brooks Team Pro is $144 at Modern Bike. A Brooks B17 is $74.99 at xxcycle. Two very common Brooks saddles. A look at Nashbar website under the saddle section shows a total of 300 road saddles. If you organize them by price, the first 147 saddles out of 300 are between $529.99 and $144.95. At $144 you get to the first Brooks Swift saddles. Swift has titanium rails. So almost half the road saddles at Nashbar are more expensive than very popular Brooks saddles. And Nashbar only has 33 saddles priced $74.99 or under. $74.99 was the B17 price. So 267 of 300 road saddles at Nashbar are above or maybe equal to the price of a Brooks B17.

I suspect you think Brooks are expensive simply because they do not make any cheap crap. All of their saddles are medium priced or slightly above. No cheap junk crap Brooks saddles. Whereas with all other saddles, you have an extremely wide range of pricing. If you want to focus exclusively on the cheap crap junk saddles, then it is easy to find cheap cheap cheap. Or if you look around a bit more you find an overwhelming number of saddles that are far more expensive than Brooks.

Although Brooks don't work for me (and I've tried!), I do like the fact
that the designs are stable so you know what you'll get.

I've gone through various saddles on my other bikes, for example some
sort of men's Terry saddle on my touring bike, a Vetta SL saddle a
friend gave me on another bike, and saddles of forgotten origin on a
couple more bikes. I like the Terry best, but it could use replacement -
its leather cover has worn out and cracked - but I don't see a duplicate
in their catalog. I suspect they don't make this one any more, so buying
another would be a pig in a poke.


--
- Frank Krygowski

On 1/5/2021 6:12 PM, wrote:
On Tuesday, January 5, 2021 at 11:49:43 AM UTC-6, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, January 5, 2021 at 9:13:14 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/5/2021 11:54 AM, jbeattie wrote:

I've never had a heated garage. I don't think that is even a thing here in the U.S. except maybe in a condo building or some super-modern construction.
Heated garages are quite common here, where winter actually gets cold.
Not that I have one, mind you. Our place predates that fashion.
Live and learn. I remember another Mid-West leaning experience when I was looking around this weird used ambulance lot in Burlingame, Ca. back in the '70s with a friend who owned a small ambulance company and needed a back-up rig. I saw some beater 60s Pontiac Bonneville (an abomination in its own right) from an ambulance company in the Mid-West with a cord hanging out of the front grille. I had never heard of engine heaters.

-- Jay Beattie.

Speaking of engine heaters, I was walking to the store to get milk this afternoon. And walked by a F250 with Power Stroke diesel plugged into a cord. I was shocked. It was 40 degrees. I'm sure diesels don't have any problem starting when its that warm. 20s and lower, yes diesels need to be plugged in. But 40, waste.

I suspect a guy who drives an F250 diesel doesn't worry much about waste.


--
- Frank Krygowski

On Tue, 5 Jan 2021 23:06:52 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 1/5/2021 5:58 PM, wrote:
On Monday, January 4, 2021 at 4:53:19 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 4 Jan 2021 06:33:21 -0800 (PST), Mark Cleary
wrote:

On Monday, January 4, 2021 at 8:00:19 AM UTC-6, AMuzi wrote:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/carlton...de-in-england/
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
Never road a Brooks and hate the look but are they really better?
Deacon Mark
Well, they are relatively expensive for a bicycle saddle, they require
"breaking in" and are extremely uncomfortable for the first, perhaps,
1,000 miles, they have to be protected from getting wet else they
stretch and being leather need frequent applications of leather
dressing which Brooks will sell you for only 17 dollars for 30 ml.


Relatively expensive? Well, a Google search says the Brooks Team Pro is $144 at Modern Bike. A Brooks B17 is $74.99 at xxcycle. Two very common Brooks saddles. A look at Nashbar website under the saddle section shows a total of 300 road saddles. If you organize them by price, the first 147 saddles out of 300 are between $529.99 and $144.95. At $144 you get to the first Brooks Swift saddles. Swift has titanium rails. So almost half the road saddles at Nashbar are more expensive than very popular Brooks saddles. And Nashbar only has 33 saddles priced $74.99 or under. $74.99 was the B17 price. So 267 of 300 road saddles at Nashbar are above or maybe equal to the price of a Brooks B17.

I suspect you think Brooks are expensive simply because they do not make any cheap crap. All of their saddles are medium priced or slightly above. No cheap junk crap Brooks saddles. Whereas with all other saddles, you have an extremely wide range of pricing. If you want to focus exclusively on the cheap crap junk saddles, then it is easy to find cheap cheap cheap. Or if you look around a bit more you find an overwhelming number of saddles that are far more expensive than Brooks.

Although Brooks don't work for me (and I've tried!), I do like the fact
that the designs are stable so you know what you'll get.

I've gone through various saddles on my other bikes, for example some
sort of men's Terry saddle on my touring bike, a Vetta SL saddle a
friend gave me on another bike, and saddles of forgotten origin on a
couple more bikes. I like the Terry best, but it could use replacement -
its leather cover has worn out and cracked - but I don't see a duplicate
in their catalog. I suspect they don't make this one any more, so buying
another would be a pig in a poke.

That is probably true of everyone that rides a bike more then once a
year - a description of a cyclist that I read on some site - and
unfortunately the only 'modern", to differentiate it from a Brooks,
saddle I've found is a older, Italian made I believe, saddle that I
acquired on a second hand frame I bought, with no visible markings on
it and thus I can't just order another.

So, when shopping for a saddle I peer at them, hold them up to the
light and squint at the angles and width and have even, in desperation
put the prospective saddle on a hard surface and sat on it.

And they still don't fit :-(
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Tue, 05 Jan 2021 22:53:57 -0500, Frank Krygowski scribed:

On 1/5/2021 5:53 PM, News 2021 wrote:
On Tue, 05 Jan 2021 10:56:30 -0800, Lou Holtman scribed:

Op dinsdag 5 januari 2021 om 19:00:46 UTC+1 schreef Radey Shouman:
Frank Krygowski writes:

On 1/5/2021 11:54 AM, jbeattie wrote:

I've never had a heated garage. I don't think that is even a thing
here in the U.S. except maybe in a condo building or some
super-modern construction.

Heated garages are quite common here, where winter actually gets
cold. Not that I have one, mind you. Our place predates that
fashion.
Newer construction here often has the garage integrated into the
house,
in which case it's simpler to heat it. Heavy, insulated garage doors
are then needed, so I guess heated garages are in part enabled by
electric door openers. Older garages tend to be detached, and
unheated,
like mine.

I have a garage integrated into the house. When I bought the house it
had a cheap steel garage door which acted as a heater in the summer
and a AC in the winter. The first home improvement was buying and
installing a insulated garage door operated with an electric opener.
Not cheap but a very good investment. The garage is now a part of the
house, comfortable warm in the winter and and not bloody hot in the
summer. Very easy and comfortable to work in and a good storage for my
bikes. The car has to stay outside because a downside of a garage
integrated into the house and close to the living room is the smell of
a hot engine when you put the car in the garage. No problem for me.

Lou

I agree. Using garages for ICE stuff is unhealthy and a complete waste
of valuable floor and storage space. After the bicycle work space, the
electronic workspace,the computer building repairs and storage, the
colour coded dodo-dads shelving and various stacked crates of stuff,
plus the steam locomotive, there is still space for the permanent
installation of the kids disco/dance party lights. Why waste all that
space on storing a car, which will last 10-20 years in the elements
before rust shows up.

Well, snow, for one thing. And ice. I hate scraping windshields.

As always, YMMV. None of that here.

Come to think of it, in summer I'm not fond of climbing into a car whose
interior is about 120 Fahrenheit.

We solved the heat problem with a shade sail 'awning', so the vehicle is
protected from sun, sticks from the trees and hail.
Te other advantage is the entertainment factor as young birds use it as a
trampoline